How did the 7800 hold up???

[ubersaurus]

Basicaly, I want one for my Master Gear. Long trips, nothing beats the Master Gear.

[King Atari]

Sweet! Now I want one! But how would I know which one to get?

[VidGameKing]

you know with the specs from the sms compared to the NES and 7800, i think that the SMS had them both beat. Like i said the graphics are very inpressive for it's time. And just because i like it dosent mean I love it. I'd pick Atari over it any day. but, I'm a hardware engineer I love anything that has well impressive specs for it's time!I dont know why Sega didnt beat Nintendo, maybe it didnt have the fan base Nintendo did when they bought the market.

[Albert]

I see that Atari 7800 games can have ROMs up to 52K (what an odd number) in size. How big can NES games get? Does anyone know what the largest released NES games are? Did any 7800 games reach 52K?

 

There are definitely some great arcade ports on the 7800. But unfortunately I haven't really spent a lot of time with the NES to compare the two systems side-by-side. The tile-based nature of the NES was pretty evident, and you ended up with a lot of platform-style games as a result. Whenever I think of the NES I think of flickering sprites. Then I think of games like Robotron and Food Fight on the 7800, and those games do a great job of pushing around tons of sprites at high speed.

 

It's hard to make an argument about the sound, I don't know why Atari didn't just stick a POKEY into the 7800. What were they thinking?? Remaining backwards compatible with the 2600 and existing controllers was a nice touch. And the 7800 doesn't have the problem with inserting cartridges that the NES front-loader does (although the 7800 does have some problems with 2600 carts not fitting very well). And I think the 7800 has a more appealing external physical appearance than the box that is the NES (and how ironic that they Nintendo put out another box, although it is a more pleasing design). The NES also had composite output built-in, which is a great improvement over RF. And the NES' directional pad controllers are more comfortable for me to use than the 7800 "Pro-Line" (*cough*) controllers (too bad Atari didn't sell the European 7800 pads here in the US).

 

But I guess it all comes down to the games. The 7800 does have some great games, but the NES has many, many more. Of course, given the sheer number of games for the NES there are also many more bad titles than on the 7800. The NES is a system I have not started to collect for, mainly because I dread collecting for another system with as many (or more) titles than the 2600.

 

If creating homebrew titles on the 7800 starts to become popular, it'll be interesting to see what people come up with.

 

..Al

[liveinabin]

The reason the NES beat the Master System in the US was due entirely to software. Then, as now, the public don't give a toss about hardware, they buy the system with the game they want - ie. Mario.

 

While I really like the 7800 now, it's little wonder that it didnt do too well. Nobody wanted to play old arcade games then.

I love centipede, but on an even playing field, it wouldn't compare to Super Mario Bros. Poor Atari were completely outclassed, and gaming had moved on.

 

Oddly enough, the Master system far outsold the NES over here. Though I don't think either sold particularly well, we were a computer nation.

[Gunstar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mitch:

From the 7800 FAQ:

 

 

CPU: 6502C (custom, NOT 65C02)

RAM: 4K, high speed (mostly VRAM)

ROM: 52K max

Cpu Clock: 1.79 MHz

Graphics Clock: 7.16 MHz

Slot Config: Most CPU lines + video/audio

CPU Avail: over 90%

 

ROM specs are based on non-bank select scheme, the graphics clock is the master clock used to drive the video chips

 

 

From the NES FAQ:

 

 

Processor : 6502 (using a custom Motorola 6502 class)

Processor speed : 1.79 Mhz

Display : 256x240

Colors : 52

Colors on screen : 16

Max sprites : 64

Max sprites pr. line : 8

Sprites size : 8x8 or 8x16

Picture Scroll : 2 h.v

RAM : 2 kb

Video RAM : 2 kb

 

 

Mitch

http://atari7800.atari.org

---

 

If this is going to be a good comparison, you need to add these lines into the 7800 specs: Display: 320x224; Colors: 256; Colors on screen: 256; Max sprites: limited only by processor speed (7.16 Mhz);Sprite size: ?(I think they can actually be huge, in the hundredsxhundreds, again, limited only by memory&processor speed)

You also need a video ram line for the 7800 and the NES needs a rom line and possibly a GPU line? No seperate gfx processor?

[Gunstar]

Atari had great custom processors with great capabilities over the years, but they never game the systems enough ram, whether videoram or main ram, or whatever, they always skimped on ram, which is an EXTREMELY important thing to have enough of for the processor to be used to their full potential. The later 7800 games and the later 8-bit or XEGS games all had a lot more memory, so they looked very good and comparible to the NES and SMS games, but they still didn't use the maximum amount-or beyond (with bank-switching), which I think would have put the 7800 over the top. But I don't believe it's full potential in the hardware was ever used either...anyone know of a 7800 game that actually uses full resolution of 320x224 or full colors spectrum of 256 colors? Or even Huge sprites?

[King Atari]

In relation to Albert's entire post, I personally love the design of the NES. I don't know why, maybe it's because it's such a symbol of late-80's video games. I always thought that the 7800 was kind of odd shaped, with that slant. They should have made it flat like the 2600 JR., it would have been more space friendly, like the NES was. Even the old 2600's were space friendly in that they were flatter and you could store stuff on them without it sliding off. I do collect for the NES. It should be noted that the NES had it's fair share of arcade ports: Double Dragon, Rampage, Elevator Action, Joust, Spy Hunter, and that awful Xenophobe port. Elevator Action in particular is an almost perfect port, with only a few imperfections, although walking and shooting is better than the arcade, it's more fast paced. I would have liked to see EA on the 7800.

[liquid_sky]

I think the master system had the bst design.. coll sleek and sci-fi... well cept for the damn pause button bein on the console itself

[liveinabin]

I'm with Jess on this, the 7800 is a lovely design - though I've seen pics of the NTSC version and it doesn't look quite as friendly, have a look at a pic of a PAL one and you'll see what I mean, it's all in the coloured stripe.

I was never a big fan of the NES look, even back in the mid 80s, when I was doing most of my gaming on Sinclair Spectrums, the NES seemed like an enormous brick by comparison, and it's in that beige type plastic they make PC's out of - you know - the kind that just sucks up dirt and looks crap. Mind, I guess when they break down you can always stick your (bologna?) sandwiches in em

The Master system was lovely, until you touched it, big shiny panels that just amplified fingermarks.

I liked the look of the euro/JP SNES (what the hell was going on with the US version?) also.

Anyway, back to the 7800, I'm thinking of maybe modding one in an Xbox (but nicer) style with a lit up Atari logo in the centre

[Atari-Jess]

quote:

---

Originally posted by King Atari:

On a separate note, Atari-Jess, your quote rocks.

---

 

Thanks, but I think I should chance slice to piece, pies are for slicin' heh anyways, Liveinabin, I'm not sure what you mean with the mod you are gonna do, its most likely that I'm not reading it very well but what exactly is it you are going to do?

[King Atari]

Do you mean your gonna put 7800 guts into an X-Box? That would be awesome.

[+Mitch]

quote

I see that Atari 7800 games can have ROMs up to 52K (what an odd number) in size.  

 

The reason it sounds odd is because the 7800 OS used 4K, leaving 48K for non-bankswitched games. The largest size the 7800 games got was 144K using bankswitching. There were also a few 128K games that had 16K of onboard RAM. The early 7800 games were 16K and 32K.

 

I believe that the largest NES games were 1 meg. That's bytes not bits.

 

Mitch

http://atari7800.atari.org

[Eckhard Stolberg]

@Albert:

52KB is only the largest consecutive chunk of unused address space. There are some more empty spaces, that could be used for mapping in cartridge RAM, ROM or coprocessors like the POKEY. I think the reason for the strange size is that Atari needed an easy way to map in the internal RAM in such a way that it wouldn't interfere completely with 2600 games, which only have a smaller number of address lines to decode. This is important, because the BIOS needs to run in the RAM when it is checking which type the game is.

 

The largest linear 7800 games use only 48KB, but bankswitched games went up to 144KB of ROM, or 128KB of ROM + 16KB of RAM. The Highscore cartridge uses some of the other free parts of the address space to map in it's 4KB of ROM and 2KB of battery backed RAM, though.

 

I don't think packing the 7800 with the proline joypads would have helped much. Compared to the NES pads Atari's pads still feel very uncomfortable IMHO.

 

@ Gunstar:

The NTSC 7800 actually has a maximum resolution of 320x243 (PAL has even more lines), but just like with the NES and the SMS only about 200 lines are visible on a NTSC TV. The rest of the vertical resolution can only be used to set up some extra data to allow smooth vertical scrolling of large areas.

 

The colour selection in 320 pixel modes is very limited. These modes are only usefull for text displays or low-colour games like chess. Many 7800 games use the 320 modes for displaying texts or scores and game status information. Also it is noteworthy that the horizontal positioning resolution is only 160 pixels. So for actual in-game graphics resolution both, the NES and the SMS, have an advantage over the 7800.

 

The 7800 only has 25 colour registers. If you want to display all 256 colours at once, you have to rewrite the colour registers on a line-by-line basis, which limits the usability for real graphics. More than 25 (24 for the objects and 1 for the background) colours per line is rather impractical.

 

The 7800 doesn't have any specific video memory per se. You just set up a list in RAM with the desription of what to display in each scanline, and then point the MARIA to this list. You can even add a large RAM chip to your cartridge and put the display lists there. The MARIA has some internal memory for keeping the pixels for exactly two scanlines though. But the programmer has no direct access to this memory.

 

There are no real sprites in the 7800. All graphics are the same type. A display list, which contains all objcts to be displayed in a scanline, can be valid for a maximum of 16 scanlies, so that's the maximum vertical resolution for an object. An entry in the display list can define a maximum of 64 graphics bytes (in indirect mode). How many pixels a byte defines depends on the video mode that the 7800 is currently in.

 

And if you set up the display list to define lots of one-byte objects, then the DMA has only time to display less than 40 different objects per scanline. You can set up the display list to have that many objects in each scanline though, as long as you provide enough RAM on the cartridge to hold that many data, since the 4KB internal RAM won't be enough for that. But if you do set up your display like that, then the 90% CPU availability probably isn't true anymore, since the DMA halts the CPU when it processes the graphics creation.

 

 

Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

[Eckhard Stolberg]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mitch:

The reason it sounds odd is because the 7800 OS used 4K, leaving 48K for non-bankswitched games.

---

 

Actually the 7800 boot ROM (16K for the PAL model due to the build-in Asteroids game) uses the same address space as the games. It copies some testing routines to the build-in RAM and then disables itself.

 

And I think the largest linear address space for games is really 54KB. It can reach from $2800 to $FFFF.

 

 

Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

 

[ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: Eckhard Stolberg ]

[King Atari]

Geez Eckhard! How do you know this stuff?!?!

[Eckhard Stolberg]

quote:

---

Originally posted by King Atari:

Geez Eckhard! How do you know this stuff?!?!

---

 

Basically, I just read the manual.

 

 

Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

[Inky]

As we all learned from the great console wars of the early eighties, you can advertise all the stats, but what matters is how good the graphics look and how fun the games are.

 

Let's compare Zaxxon, 5200 to Desert falcon. IMHO Zaxxon on the 52 has Desert Falcon beat hands down in graphics and playability, and technically the 78 is a superior machine. The Zaxxon graphics are crisper than Desert Falcon and the game seems (to me at least) to be a tinge smoother. Now mind you this is based on Zaxxon on an EMu, seeing as I've never owned it on my 52, so your mileage may vary.

 

The gfx on the 78 never seemed to me to be as crisp as the gfx on a Sega Master or a NES (at one point I did own all 3 systems). Sound on the 78 was horrid because of the non-use of the Pokey.

 

But let's now look at Ballblazer. Graphics: Crisp. Sound: Great (due to the porkey in the cart) Play: Fantastic. There was nothing like it on the SMS or the NES. I have probably spent the second longest amount of time on this 78 game as any other (the one played the most being Xevious)

 

Let's look at Athena on the NES (which I did own once.. poor me) GFX: Confusing. Sound: Horrid. Play: There was a game here? Yet the NES was the technically superior machine.

 

I love the 7800 and I feel that it is quite often given short shrift, but it is not, nor has it ever been the best system, but there are some quality titles that are overshadowed by the system's short lifespan.

 

While I thought the gfx on every other version of Xevious was better ('cept the 26 and 52), the play on 7800 Xevious was second to none -- including the arcade version.

 

Just a few disconnected ramblings.

 

[ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: Inky ]

[King Atari]

quote

Basically, I just read the manual.  

 

LOL, fair enough.

 

quote:

---

While I thought the gfx on every other version of Xevious was better ('cept the 26 and 52), the play on 7800 Xevious was second to none -- including the arcade version.

 

---

 

Xevious was a port I forgot to mention, the NES version is by far my favorite, near arcade. Now, look at 7800 Dig Dug, while it is a good port, it's not arcade perect. It takes too long to blow up whatever them things were supposed to be, and the whole game has a less-than-arcade perfect look. That's the thing about 7800, some of the titles are just to blocky, and it's true, no one in the late-80's wanted to play old arcade games, they wanted new stuff, like Double Dragon!

[ubersaurus]

That's alot of interesting information on the 7800! Maybe the site should update the hardware section to have information like that, for the guys who want to program for the machine.

[+Mitch]

quote

Actually the 7800 boot ROM (16K for the PAL model due to the build-in Asteroids game) uses the same address space as the games.  

 

Whoops. I was sure that I had read that somewhere. My memory must be going.

 

Mitch

http://atari7800.atari.org

[Atari-Jess]

I own the SMS, NES and 7800 and the 7800 had the best case design out of all of them, I just like it MUCH more, its way more sleek

[King Atari]

On a separate note, Atari-Jess, your quote rocks. And back on topic, I like the design of the 7800, it's just not space friendly. And when you've got as many system/games as I do, it helps to have as much space as possible.

[DracIsBack]

I agree that "better" is kinda subjective. I owned the NES, an SMS (SMS II at one point as well) and a 7800 in the late 1980s and early 1990s. While the 7800 was my favorite system, I did find that each system had its strengths and weaknesses.

 

In terms of graphics, the 7800 could definitely hold its own but it you didn't really find programmers pushing the system a lot until the very end. Let's face it - for every game like Alien Brigade or Commando, there was crap like Touchdown Football.

 

"The NES has a real sound chip."

 

No contest. The 7800 didn't have sound that was even as good as the 5200, let alone the NES or SMS. Only a few games used POKEY - probably because the Tramiels were so cheap. COMMANDO is probably the best example.

 

"It has a higher screen resolution that is useable in games and easier to program tile graphics."

 

I don't know if I agree here. I remember the 7800 having a range of graphics modes (ala the 8-bit computers) going all the way up to 320 x 240 pixels ... a resolution that's higher than the NES. And if you want to get down to it, the 7800's ability to move objects slaughters the NES and the SMS. Flickering was common-place in the SMS and (particularly) the NES but rare on the 7800. MARIA was good at that.

 

"It has great sprite hardware and background graphic management."

 

Against the 7800? No way. The 7800 crushes the NES in this department.

 

"It has RAM (!)."

 

So does the 7800. More of it than the NES.

 

"Its design was very flexible, and Nintendo took advantage of that by constantly increasing RAM and ROM capacities of the carts."

 

I think the 7800's design was also flexible. The problem was that the Tramiel's were cheap. :-)

 

"It had loads of great programmers work on it, across a huge range of companies, so its library of games is generally well programmed and represents some of the best titles and 8bit coding of the mid 80's..."

 

This is a key point. It would be interesting to see the 7800's library had the likes of Konami programmed it.

[DracIsBack]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albert:

[QB]I see that Atari 7800 games can have ROMs up to 52K (what an odd number) in size. How big can NES games get? Does anyone know what the largest released NES games are? Did any 7800 games reach 52K? ]

---

 

God - this misinformation is posted ALL OVER THE INTERNET! You've think that with the availability of 7800 roms for download, people would start correcting their websites! :-)

 

The NES does have larger games than the 7800. I'd argue that this was a function of Tramiel cheapness more than anything. NES games initially weren't all that large but Nintendo kept working on expanding cartridge sizes by developing memory management chips (MMC). By the time the NES died, I think there were even 6 megabit titles in Japan. Initial games like Super Mario were typically 1 megabit (128K) or less.

 

What about Atari? Initial 7800 titles were 16K and 32K ... typical of games on the Colecovision. In 1987, most 7800 titles were 48K. In 1988, Atari wisened up and released larger titles. A lot of 7800 games released later in the system's life were 128K with a couple (ALIEN BRIGADE comes to mind) being 144K.

 

Mark's Classic Gaming Page