Hardsynth

[Allas]

Second music from Desert dream demo C64 (Atari version):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFlzATNpoYI

[emkay]

For an upcoming event

 

And .... btw: Possibly a good example for most stable sounds

[Clint Thompson]

OK.... some Ideas from Mux are in the tune... particular the new drums.

 

I made some "by ear" correction by listening parallel to the RMT and the MOD tune.

Many of "up" and "downs" are gone now with the Sawtooth... but I didn't "correct" all...

What a benefit would be a Tracker that is able to import a MOD by syncing them automatically.

 

Inspired by the ideas of Analoque Multiplexer I changed again some instruments.

 

Note: As long as no Tracker is featuring "by note filter correction", we have to live with those noisy basslines. Because the difference in the instrument/notation is too heavy when trying to make them less noisy by standard features.

 

So I've spent quite some time downloading, reading and catching myself up to speed with this godly long and juicy thread =). I'm not a big fan of the chippy tune stuff but I would like to say I would have never imagined those sounds coming from an Atari 800. I think ST at very least. Lots of stuff having me saying "Wow!"

 

This last bit (turx) got me where I wanted though.... somewhere around 13-17 seconds into the song there is a deeper/phatter bassy sounding line that I really really enjoy (and hope to create somehow on my own). I wasn't really sure if the 800 could make those kind of sounds (deep/phat/resonating-like) stuff... but you have just proven it's certainly possible.

 

It's the kind of stuff that makes your ears warm after listening to it for about 20 seconds... you know it's good

 

Can you play around with some of the lower punchy/bassier sounding 303 wanna be stuff? How low can it go? (without sounding like complete ass) and does it have to have a beat in order to have that low sounding stuff or can that be strictly solo?

[Rybags]

I've always been of the opinion that the ST has vastly inferior sound (on the YM chip) to that which POKEY is capable of.

 

Although, the ST does have the edge for digitized stuff since it can easily devote the processor time required, although it is still only crappy 4-bit PCM.

 

If you're interested in the lesser known POKEY features, check out the "Poly counter Reset" thread http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116835

[analmux]

If you're interested in the lesser known POKEY features, check out the "Poly counter Reset" thread

 

And, it was a real surprise for me to hear the 2-Tone-Filter for the first time a week ago

 

I did some investigations and now I think I understand the 2-tone-filter well enough.

 

It's a pity though that it's not emulated at all, thus RMT doesn't support it. Im afraid that there's no tracker available anyway that supports 2-tone-filter now.

 

So it will still take a lot of time before Pokey experiments are over

 

 

So, while the BOOK says that there's only one type of filtering, namely the ill-named 'high-pass-filter', there are in fact 3 of them:

 

1) high-pass filter

2) 16-bit filter

3) 2-tone filter

 

...where 16bit and 2tone filter act nearly the same.

 

2-tone filter: channel 1 timer is reset by channel 2, but at the reset there's no pulse

 

16-bit filter: channel 1 timer is reset by channel 2, but there is in fact a pulse at the reset, but the pitches of ch.1 and ch.2 are related by the 16-bit mode.

[emkay]

So I've spent quite some time downloading, reading and catching myself up to speed with this godly long and juicy thread =). I'm not a big fan of the chippy tune stuff but I would like to say I would have never imagined those sounds coming from an Atari 800. I think ST at very least. Lots of stuff having me saying "Wow!"

 

Nice to read :-)

 

This last bit (turx) got me where I wanted though.... somewhere around 13-17 seconds into the song there is a deeper/phatter bassy sounding line that I really really enjoy

 

Could you make a short recording of that part?

 

(and hope to create somehow on my own). I wasn't really sure if the 800 could make those kind of sounds (deep/phat/resonating-like) stuff... but you have just proven it's certainly possible.

 

It's the kind of stuff that makes your ears warm after listening to it for about 20 seconds... you know it's good

 

Now I'm impressed by this positive feedback...

 

Can you play around with some of the lower punchy/bassier sounding 303 wanna be stuff? How low can it go? (without sounding like complete ass) and does it have to have a beat in order to have that low sounding stuff or can that be strictly solo?

 

Well, some sounds are a bit "random" to create them, caused by missing programming features of POKEY.

The biggest problem is the timing which is the only same thing on all ATARIs.

 

One example: the filter is not reseted by standard. POKEY uses the "last" shift between the main voice and the filter voice.

With "my" technique of reproducing always the same shift between the two voices gives new sounds, but there is another problem.

Doing a shift with the same timing offset, produces different waveforms from the lower to the higher frequencies.

To have the best possible waveform for several octaves, the time offset between the voices has to be shorter when the pitch is getting higher.

 

The sounds that are already "achieved" can be reproduced everytime in RMT. But, there are "worlds of sounds" still missing.

 

So, the better the tracker, the better is the accuracy for sound creating.

 

Or, to say it in other words: With always the correct timing we can have sawtooth and triangle waves at much lower frequencies.... for creating "phater" sounds. And, with a clever programmed timing some more "Acid" sounds should be possible :-)

[analmux]

Or, to say it in other words: With always the correct timing we can have sawtooth and triangle waves at much lower frequencies.... for creating "phater" sounds. And, with a clever programmed timing some more "Acid" sounds should be possible :-)

 

Well, this is where I differ with you emkay. Sawtooth and triangle waves are in fact generated by a modulation between two channels with slightly different pitches. So in fact they are always & never in phase with each other. Timing is never a problem.

 

Also your point of getting 'lower frequencies' I don't see. The lower we get, the more we will hear the actual voices 1 and 3 separately.

 

saw and triangle are both generated by interference of ultrasonic sounds, but when they get too low pitched, they won't be ultrasonic anymore. And besides, the volume of the interference effects (that result in saw & triangle) dies out when pitch gets lower. Maybe a combination of 16bit or 2tone filter will stretch things a bit...But, I still don't see how a combination of this and correct timing will give control over lower pitches.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Analogue Multiplexer

[Rybags]

Agreed. I found the triangle and saw become kind of useless below a certain value since you begin to hear the actual frequencies of the voices.

 

It might be more noticable depending on your speaker setup - I'm using Logitec speakers, which are of much better quality and would reproduce more faithfully than most TV speakers.

 

I'm willing to bet that more specialist speakers with proper tweeters would make it even more obvious.

 

But... low pitched triangle waves aren't always usable anyway since they tend to get quiet as the pitch lowers.

 

Standard Atari poly sounds can substitute for lower pitched sawtooth quite well. Since you're using 2 voices to get either one anyway, it doesn't become that much of an issue to use 2 voices in 16 bit mode.

[Clint Thompson]

Could you make a short recording of that part?

 

And, with a clever programmed timing some more "Acid" sounds should be possible :-)

 

Yup...

(btw... I obviously toyed with it for a quick moment... looping it a few times...)

(also, the dsp thru is with the pitch pushed down using software and recorded using sound tap, not that it's obvious when you play back... ).

pokeyphat.mp3

dspthrough.mp3

Edited December 4, 2007 by Clint Thompson

[emkay]

Also your point of getting 'lower frequencies' I don't see. The lower we get, the more we will hear the actual voices 1 and 3 separately.

 

Well, I'm not only talking about 1.79MHz. I'm also talking about 15khz with filter correction.

Ofcourse, we ever will have some "clicking/square-noise", caused by the "atari-waves" when using filter. But, as you know already, you can make them sound deeper or "low-cut" , depending on the timing between the main voice and the filter. Most of the "developed" instruments are not usable, because they change it's face, which could be handled with "filter correction"

 

saw and triangle are both generated by interference of ultrasonic sounds, but when they get too low pitched, they won't be ultrasonic anymore. And besides, the volume of the interference effects (that result in saw & triangle) dies out when pitch gets lower. Maybe a combination of 16bit or 2tone filter will stretch things a bit...But, I still don't see how a combination of this and correct timing will give control over lower pitches.

 

Perhaps, with a full working pokey emulation I could do a demonstration of what I found back in the 80's. Everyone said: It's a flute. Not some synthesized sound. It was a clear and "midranged" sound and it was "loud".

I remember two other things: 1.79MHz was activated and they played the same pitch. Possibly not filtered.

 

You know the "fanfare" in Admirandus. Well, it was created in "a musicians dream(freeware version)" that had a runtime for playing music.

But it was impossible to do those sounds in there, while the "flute" was done with some simple basic commands.

[emkay]

For those who want XMas a bit "soft"er

[emkay]

This in stereo... I had fun with it

[emkay]

This in stereo... I had fun with it

 

Is someone able to record this from a PAL stereo machine ( ~3.5minutes)?

Would be nice, thanks.

[emkay]

One before going to bed

[emkay]

Found a weird MOD ... some kind of remix...

 

Perhaps it fits to weird hardsynth experiments.

[emkay]

This one is a "wanted" from my side. A simple but good "raggae" rhythm.

I found this mod "ancient times". It contains almost 30 different samples recorded specially for this tune.

So , to have an almost similar sounding to have the tune "together" .... how to do it without filter correction and variable sounding?

The tune uses also 29 different "types" of instruments.

I wished it would sound even more relaxed.... but it's worth a demonstration, i guess...

[emkay]

The SLL 2 tune seems incorrect by the default MOD recognition. Even Winamp and the MAD Tracker seem to have problems with it.

I chose it because it is a very good tune for demonstrating some sawtooth impressions. The voice mixup at the end is intenional for that tune.

[emkay]

Hm.... never played the game, but ....

[emkay]

hm...

 

Ab bit "old" a bit "saw" a bit "hardsynth bass" .... is it recognizable?

[Rybags]

Do you reckon you could do the ingame music from Delta (C64) ?

[analmux]

hm...

 

Ab bit "old" a bit "saw" a bit "hardsynth bass" .... is it recognizable?

 

off course

 

funny version of a Zelda tune (outside area)

 

same to the previous, of gameboy's super mario land.

 

The S.M.L. tune has though one incorrect voice (transpositions needed again )

[emkay]

Do you reckon you could do the ingame music from Delta (C64) ?

 

If someone gives me a MOD file, or just the SID notations for RMT, I'd give it a try.

[emkay]

The changes of the "Saw" correction doesn't affect the FX of RMT correctly. So the tune suffers by this.

But, imho, the essential is kept already, for a demonstration.

:-)

[Rybags]

Any chance of Mission Impossible?

 

I tried, and can get something almost half decent using 8-voice mode with filters, but it would be nice to have a filtered version which performs in 4 voices.

 

mission_impossible.zip

 

There's a couple of MODs from modarchive.com

 

MissionI_SIDs.zip

 

There's a few really good ones on the C-64. SID files contained in ZIP.

[emkay]

People may know the Pet Shop Boy's "It's a Sin".

Well.... the results of my "tryings" I'll name "AcidSin" ... listen and you my know why