Lord Thag Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I just noticed this thread. I'd heard the name, but I've never played this game before. Guess I'm going to have to remedy that in short order Is there a cart verison of this available, or even a disk? I much prefer playing on the original hardware. This game really sounds fun, I'm looking forward to playing it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathtrappomegranate Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I just noticed this thread. I'd heard the name, but I've never played this game before. Guess I'm going to have to remedy that in short order Is there a cart verison of this available, or even a disk? I much prefer playing on the original hardware. This game really sounds fun, I'm looking forward to playing it! 883666[/snapback] The original is in disk format. It's not too hard to find. Better have 2 disk drives, though. There's a large thread about Wrathchild's ongoing project to convert it to Flashcart format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 6, 2005 Author Share Posted July 6, 2005 Ok, here is the low-down on A.R.:The City as played on an NTSC 800, 10k rom, 48k, 2 810's. Time: 1 A.R. hour~3 real min. It's definately a bit slower than the XL/XE time of ~2:50 (55?), but still doesn't account for the supposed 4 min. hour as stated in the manual/guide book. The closest is still the PAL (test done on a NTSC 1200XL 64k, PAL ANTIC (50hz refresh), which I clocked in at ~3:50. IIRC, this was confirmed by Xebec's Demise with similiar enulator settings. Disk loading is frequent and frustrating, every single thing you do besides move requires a load with the "One moment Please" on the screen. the extra 16k+ in XL's and XE's really make a difference on how frequent the loads are, and the 800 doesn't even have the A.R. font on the "swap disk" screens. I can see why people with 800's might have been discouraged by load times, before realizing it was worth it, to play the game. Even with 2 disk drives and no swappig beyond disk 1.2, it's a real test of your attention and patience to play on the 800. If the cartridge works on the 800, people that played it on an 800 and hated it may even love it now. I'm glad I started playing on a 130XE, it really made a difference. 883205[/snapback] Wow, as this game came out in 1985, I bet most people first experienced it on an Atari 800. That is too bad, but at least it is a problem that Wrathchild is now remedying, even if 20 years later. Is there a way to tell all Atari owners to stop selling their computers on ebay and try out the new AR cartridge before parting with such a wonderful machine. I imagine the game, and Atari, would have been tremendously more popular with no disk swapping or loading times. Even if everyone had experienced AR for the first time, 130XE style, it would have made a huge difference in their initial impression. As for the timing, how weird! So the AR game and music runs at three different speeds, 800 - 3:00 per hour, NTSC XE 2:50 per hour, and PAL XE 3:50 per hour. Was the Atari 800 time recorded inside an Inn to avoid any distortion from disk activity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindfield Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Wow, as this game came out in 1985, I bet most people first experienced it on an Atari 800. 886692[/snapback] By 1985, the XLs had already been out for several years, and the XE line had been recently introduced, so in all probability most people first experienced it on an XL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 6, 2005 Author Share Posted July 6, 2005 (edited) Yep, 1983. I was thinking that with the 800XL only two years old and more expensive, that the majority of Atari 8-bits at that point were probably the 800s? There must be production numbers listed somewhere. There is also a big difference between playing Alternate Reality on a 64k XL and a 128k XE. The game is probably not bareable for most unless played on an XE and even then, there is quite a bit of disk swapping to load and play the game unless you had two drives. When AR was released, there were many game reviews that complained about the loading times: "Now to the bad news. The biggest problem is the delays that they have built in to the program. For instance if you buy some food in a tavern the screen flashes up 'Right away!' and then pauses like that for five seconds - this means it takes about a minute to buy 6 flasks of water! When you check the time at an Inn it stays on screen for ten seconds (this is made even worse by the fact that it takes two diskette changes and associated pauses to get in and out of the Inn, so finding out the time actually takes nearly a whole minute!). These, and many other, unnecessary pauses (I am quite capable of pressing a key or button when I have finished reading a message, thank you very much), combined with much unnecessary diskette changes (for instance every time you try and enter a closed establishment) nearly put me off the game completely to start with." http://page6.org/archive/issue_21/page_49.htm "Playability 33% Crippled by the inefficient layout of the game over the disks." "Overall 48% Despite initial attractions, the game is ultimately unplayable." http://www.gb64.com/oldsite/gameofweek/11/...eality-city.htm Edited July 6, 2005 by Xebec's Demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 6, 2005 Author Share Posted July 6, 2005 Noticed an IBM PC version of Alternate Reality: The City on ebay today. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=8201971566 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Ok, here is the low-down on A.R.:The City as played on an NTSC 800, 10k rom, 48k, 2 810's. Time: 1 A.R. hour~3 real min. It's definately a bit slower than the XL/XE time of ~2:50 (55?), but still doesn't account for the supposed 4 min. hour as stated in the manual/guide book. The closest is still the PAL (test done on a NTSC 1200XL 64k, PAL ANTIC (50hz refresh), which I clocked in at ~3:50. IIRC, this was confirmed by Xebec's Demise with similiar enulator settings. Disk loading is frequent and frustrating, every single thing you do besides move requires a load with the "One moment Please" on the screen. the extra 16k+ in XL's and XE's really make a difference on how frequent the loads are, and the 800 doesn't even have the A.R. font on the "swap disk" screens. I can see why people with 800's might have been discouraged by load times, before realizing it was worth it, to play the game. Even with 2 disk drives and no swappig beyond disk 1.2, it's a real test of your attention and patience to play on the 800. If the cartridge works on the 800, people that played it on an 800 and hated it may even love it now. I'm glad I started playing on a 130XE, it really made a difference. 883205[/snapback] Wow, as this game came out in 1985, I bet most people first experienced it on an Atari 800. That is too bad, but at least it is a problem that Wrathchild is now remedying, even if 20 years later. Is there a way to tell all Atari owners to stop selling their computers on ebay and try out the new AR cartridge before parting with such a wonderful machine. I imagine the game, and Atari, would have been tremendously more popular with no disk swapping or loading times. Even if everyone had experienced AR for the first time, 130XE style, it would have made a huge difference in their initial impression. As for the timing, how weird! So the AR game and music runs at three different speeds, 800 - 3:00 per hour, NTSC XE 2:50 per hour, and PAL XE 3:50 per hour. Was the Atari 800 time recorded inside an Inn to avoid any distortion from disk activity? 886692[/snapback] All times recorded by me on all three machines was while sitting in a tavern. No disk access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 7, 2005 Author Share Posted July 7, 2005 (edited) I wonder what would make the Atari 800 10 seconds slower? And, can we assume that the PAL Atari 800 is also 10 seconds slower, which would put the timing exactly at 4:00 minutes per AR hour, as stated in the manual. So the manual and maybe the game was created around a PAL Atari 800. Edited July 7, 2005 by Xebec's Demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 (edited) I wonder what would make the Atari 800 10 seconds slower? And, can we assume that the PAL Atari 800 is also 10 seconds slower, which would put the timing exactly at 4:00 minutes per AR hour, as stated in the manual. So the manual and maybe the game was created around a PAL Atari 800. 887647[/snapback] Well, it sounds like the most reasonable explanation so far, except I still don't know why Philip Price would have been using a PAL 800 and where he got it from, this was the early 80's remember; no internet, no E-bay, and users from across the oceans basically had no idea of the different software and such that was available in their country and not in another and vice-versa. I never saw any English , german or Polish software (except for the few publishers that did bring stuff from overseas) until the 90's when access to it became available through the internet. It was a different world back then and would have been strange by any means to be using a PAL 800 in a non-PAL country and obtaining one would have been infinately harder than getting an NTSC version, even in Hawaii...but, besides ALL this, your usumption seems to be the logical one. As for the difference between the 800 and XL/XE time differences, I'd suspect either, or both the 10k ROM and off the shelf 6502 compared to the 16k rom and custom 6502C in the XL/XE's...that's my guess. Edited July 8, 2005 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 8, 2005 Author Share Posted July 8, 2005 (edited) It is strange, but remember, Philip Price was living without plumbing or power back then. He wrote that he was powering his Atari off of a jeep or generator and living in a shack. So, owning an oddball PAL Atari 800 does not seem too far fetched. It could have been as simple as someone from Europe moving to Hawaii and taking their PAL 800 with them, later selling or giving it to Philip. It is all very strange, but the facts we do know seem to point to this. Facts: 1. AR runs at 2:50 and 3:50 per AR hour on NTSC and PAL Ataris respectively. 2. AR runs at 3:00 on an NTSC Atari 800 - 10 seconds slower than an NTSC XL/XE. 3. The manual, which was written by Kathi B. Tremblay, Datasoft's Marketing Project Manager, states that one AR hour equals four minutes. 4. Philip Price did use an Atari 800 in the programing of AR - listed on disk 1 side 2. It is very unlikely that Datasoft's Marketing Project Manager would be using a PAL Atari 800 to test AR and therefore I think that she was probably told that an AR hour equaled four minutes; most likely by Philip Price himself. Ah, Alternate Reality trivia... Edited July 8, 2005 by Xebec's Demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 (edited) If only Alternate Reality Online had been finished! It was the perfect multiplayer game coming out right at the dawn of Massively Multiplayer games. The timing would have been perfect. Imperator which will be released in the future seems somewhat similar: http://games.channel.aol.com/previews.adp?...095&gameID=6686 Alternate Reality Online: Edited July 10, 2005 by Xebec's Demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Here is a nice collection of messages from Philip Price: http://www.cc.utah.edu/~krw8466/ardocs/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunder Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Heh - I just discovered that if you keep drinking the alcoholic potions, eventually you die!! *shock* I was monitoring what I *thought* was the drunkeness stat, but there must be something somewhere else too... d'oh! As you've mentioned before, Xebec, this game continues to surprise even after all these years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walter_J64bit Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 WOW this is a big post I've never played Alternate Reality but if coming to an XE cart I'll be all over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 17, 2005 Author Share Posted July 17, 2005 Heh - I just discovered that if you keep drinking the alcoholic potions, eventually you die!! *shock* I was monitoring what I *thought* was the drunkeness stat, but there must be something somewhere else too... d'oh! As you've mentioned before, Xebec, this game continues to surprise even after all these years! 893132[/snapback] Amazing! Do you just drop dead of alcohol poisoning even with Hit Points left? Or do your Hit Points start dropping down until you die at less than 0? What are the stages and how many potions did it take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunder Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) Heh - I just discovered that if you keep drinking the alcoholic potions, eventually you die!! *shock* I was monitoring what I *thought* was the drunkeness stat, but there must be something somewhere else too... d'oh! As you've mentioned before, Xebec, this game continues to surprise even after all these years! 893132[/snapback] Amazing! Do you just drop dead of alcohol poisoning even with Hit Points left? Or do your Hit Points start dropping down until you die at less than 0? What are the stages and how many potions did it take? 893177[/snapback] I'm going to have to do some more experimenting as I was deluded at the time... although I kept drinking all of the non-harmful potions that came my way (water, healing, protection, etc.) - but I didn't see my HP nosedive... the character just carc'ed it after about 6 potions (about 2 wine, 1 beer, 1 spirits, 3 inebriation, IIRC) Very strange... and funny... and frustrating! (Edit again - I'll post the edit as a new message; didn't think people would have replied quite that quickly!) Edited July 17, 2005 by Chunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 17, 2005 Author Share Posted July 17, 2005 Oh, if you were deluded, then I suppose your hitpoints could have been dropping to zero from anything, and you would not notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) I actually have an interview with Price from 87 that I'm trying to get off of stock floppies and onto a pc/mac. I don't have a registered version of APE (yet), and the Atari810 sio2pc program doesn't work for me either. Heck, I've tried dumping it to serial etc.. I gotta find me 850Express or something. I used to have a program that read Atari 8bit floppies directly on a PC. Hmm... A lot of recent reviews of AR slam it for load times, etc, one person even gave it a bad rating because you couldn't choose your starting character (ala, warrior, cleric, etc..). BUT, reading through the message archives from the 80s tells a very different story. People were floored by it, obsessed, even fell off the face of the earth for months at a time (myself included). Edited July 17, 2005 by kheller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I'm going to have to do some more experimenting as I was deluded at the time... although I kept drinking all of the non-harmful potions that came my way (water, healing, protection, etc.) - but I didn't see my HP nosedive... the character just carc'ed it after about 6 potions (about 2 wine, 1 beer, 1 spirits, 3 inebriation, IIRC) Very strange... and funny... and frustrating! 893186[/snapback] There are two sets of stats, those displayed on the screen, and those that are "internal". For example, you might believe you are weak, when you really are strong and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunder Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Further experimentation... path me thoth brainth, Igor... Okay - just tried again; removed delusion and checked for any diseases before starting, so I could see what was going on. Beer x2 Inebriation x4 Wine x3 Spirits x2 = Die I became drunk after the fourth potion of inebriation (as opposed to "tipsy"), and then the one subsequent potion of spirits killed me It looks like it is memory location 8fa2 that measures inebriation. 0=sober, then anything up to FE is tipsy. FF=drunk, and then when you go over this, it's game over, man! There's no decline of stats or HP, either. Oddly enough, I wasn't blacking out which normally happens... was staggering quite nicely thankyouverymuchofficer, but didn't seem quite as sever as I've seen it before. Perhaps something is tied in to your stamina? (I was using a test character with 255 stats, etc.) Most entertaining! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 17, 2005 Author Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) As far as I know, you have discovered something new Chunder! I have never read or heard anything about dying from alcohol poisoning! And I have read a lot! Maybe it takes time for for each potion to kick-in or get into your blood stream. You know how when you get cleansed at the Healer or even when you drink a beer it takes up to an hour (one text screen flash approx 3-4 minutes) for the Disease to be totally cleansed out or for you to become Tipsy. So, in actuality, it may only take a couple of inebreation potions to do you in, but you have to wait for them to make their way into your system. You would have to time it by pacing out when you drank the potions. It would probably be easier to just do it with the strongest drink and drink one per hour to see how it affected you. Speaking of which, what is the strongest drink in Alternate Reality? Edited July 17, 2005 by Xebec's Demise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Oberhäuser Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Imperator which will be released in the future seems somewhat similar: There will be no Imperator. They will focus on Warhammer Online. Mythic Entertainment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 (edited) Make sure you read the following text documents from yester year... CompuServe SIG interviews with Price and others: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72948 DataSoft's AR News Letters: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72952 Edited July 18, 2005 by kheller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I actually have an interview with Price from 87 that I'm trying to get off of stock floppies and onto a pc/mac. I don't have a registered version of APE (yet), and the Atari810 sio2pc program doesn't work for me either. Heck, I've tried dumping it to serial etc.. I gotta find me 850Express or something. I used to have a program that read Atari 8bit floppies directly on a PC. Hmm... A lot of recent reviews of AR slam it for load times, etc, one person even gave it a bad rating because you couldn't choose your starting character (ala, warrior, cleric, etc..). BUT, reading through the message archives from the 80s tells a very different story. People were floored by it, obsessed, even fell off the face of the earth for months at a time (myself included). 893193[/snapback] This is true. People didn't mind the load times back then, becuase we had all been used to loading games off of tape which took far, far longer than the loading off a disk. waiting for stuff to load in AR from disk was still light-years faster than a cassette tape back then. People today have become too impatient and expect everything to be near instantanious since they are used to hard drives and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Started a list of links in the first post. If you have any good Alternate Reality links that are not already listed. Post them in the thread and I will add them into the first post. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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