NES-on-a-chip vs. real NES hardware

[Bill Brasky]

I've read that games or just certain games look/sound different on the NES on a chip/Famiclones compared to them running on original NES hardware. Is this true and if so which games and what are the differences?

[Flack]

Nintendo-on-a-Chip (NOAC) systems aren't 100% accurate or compatible with real hardware. It's possible that the sound and colors on a NOAC may be slightly off on every single game is plays. That being said, it really depends on just how sensitive your eyes and ears are, how familiar you were with the originals, how important 100% accuracy is to you, and whether or not you can live with the differences. Some people will rant and rave about how famiclones aren't 100% accurate. Personally I find they're close enough for me, and the convenience and reliability of the hardware outweighs any slight differences in color or sound. It's a personal preference, and the best way to decide is to try one out with a game you're familiar with and see if the slight differences bother you.

[chrisbid]

do you want

 

a) a new piece of reliable hardware with modern video capabilities, but minor graphics, sound, and compatibility issues

 

b) a 20 year old piece of unreliable hardware with so-so video capabilities, with "perfect" compatibility

 

id say its a push

[n8littlefield]

Well, the main issue I have with a Famiclone (like my Yobo) is simply that there are a few games that don't play at all. However, it was a nice stopgap until I have the time to do something more permanent with my toaster. I had tradein credit at a store that had the Yobo, so I figured it would be a free way to get me through the winter.

 

And really, the video capabilities of the toaster are just as good as the Yobo. The reliability of the toaster is the main issue, but with enough time and effort you can get that on the toaster as well.

[Great Hierophant]

b) a 20 year old piece of unreliable hardware with so-so video capabilities, with "perfect" compatibility

 

I assume unreliable hardware = front loader and so-so video capabilities = top loader. The front loader has A/V outputs for as-good-as-it-gets video capabilities and similarly for the top loader's cartridge connector.

 

The front loader's cartridge tray-loading mechanism can be completely removed. It is quite possible to replace it with an entirely different loading mechanism. You could manufacture a replacement shell for the top portion of a front loader that screws into the bottom portion of the front loader and incorporates a top-loading cartridge connector design. The cartridge connector would connect to the pins on the edge of the NES's PCB.

 

As for the top loader's video problem, that has been solved. The schematic for the proper video amp is here:

http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html

(You can leave out FC2 or C6, they don't make any difference.)

[Flack]

I think when people refer to toaster's blinking problems or top loader's video output problems, they are referring to original, unmodified hardware. Yes, there are hardware modifications that can be made to circumvent most hardware problems. My guess is, most people looking at Yobo famiclones in flea markets aren't skilled enough or knowledgeable enough to perform those mods.

[chrisbid]

so so means just AV. doesnt the NEX machine have S-Video and stereo sound?

[davepesc]

so so means just AV.  doesnt the NEX machine have S-Video and stereo sound?

959547[/snapback]

 

No and No

[Famicoman]

I prefer real hardware. For my reason, just look for one of those other threads involving an emulation battle.

[JB]

so so means just AV.  doesnt the NEX machine have S-Video and stereo sound?

959547[/snapback]

No and sort of.

 

The NEX has composite AV only. They claimed s-video was impossible(which is a blatant lie).

Audio is dual mono. There ARE seperate left and right channels, but both carry the exact same signal. You can get the same effect with a 2$ RCA Y adapter.

[Great Hierophant]

Really, I thought they might have split the signals like Chris Cracknell's mod does.

 

So-so, meaning A/V, is as good as it gets for Nintendo's 8-bit hardware unless you have a Famicom Titler, which does have S-Video output, but that is converted from the 2C03 PPU chip, which is native RGB. In that case, you are getting converted S-Video instead of native S-Video. Also, I don't know whether matters, but the NES's chrominance and luminence signals are mixed within the PPU, unlike the 2600's which are mixed outside the Stella chip.

[Teknik_SE-R]

actually, messiah jsut claimed that it wasn't worth the effort to convert to s-video, which I believe is a legit claim.

 

from what I understand, the games are directly programmed to output in NTSC(US/JAP) or PAL (EU). every time you convert, you lose picture quality, so by converting from NTSC to S-vid, you don't gain anything.

 

From playing a yobo, I'd say it soen't have as bad of slowdown (on large games) as the toaster. Like when playing contra force, both my toploader and my toaster can barely even handle that game, its almost like playing with a slo-mo controller, but the yobo doen't have that problem quite as bad. I have a NEX on order and I plan on getting a yobo for myself, not only to collect, but so I can avoid stuff like slowdown and bootup reliability.

 

So I guess I'd recommend getting a good condition toaster AND a famiclone, preferably a yobo (until i experience first hand if the NEX is as good as it.)

[JB]

actually, messiah jsut claimed that it wasn't worth the effort to convert to s-video, which I believe is a legit claim.

No, tehy claimed it was physically impossible, and even if they did, it wouldn't work because the games were programmed in composite, which is complete BS.

 

from what I understand, the games are directly programmed to output in NTSC(US/JAP) or PAL (EU). every time you convert, you lose picture quality, so by converting from NTSC to S-vid, you don't gain anything.

S-video isn't a new image standard, though. It's just running the NTSC or PAL-spec chroma and luma signals down 2 seperate wires instead of mixing them.

Both standards have a luma signal that gets you black+white television, and a chroma "overlay" signal that's used to add the correct hue to the luma signal's brightness value.

So s-video is actually PURE NTSC or PAL signals, instead of composite's mixed-up version that has to be seperated back out at the TV.

 

And the NES works internally in chroma and luma, as do all color non-RGB systems.

 

 

On a real NES, an s-video mod isn't possible because the chroma and luma signals are merged before exiting the chip package*. On a clone, it depends on the chipset you use. And Messiah gave the impression they were developing their own chipset.

 

 

*Ironically, an RGB mod, while noon-native, IS possible. The PlayChoice10 GPU(which recreates the RGB internally) is pin-compatible with the NES/FamiCom GPU, aside from the fact that the PC10 RGB lines are ground pins on the console version. So you just pull your old GPU, bend the RGB pins up on your PC10 GPU, drop it in, and build a video amp.

[supercat]

And the NES works internally in chroma and luma, as do all color non-RGB systems.

959695[/snapback]

 

Artifact-based composite color systems such as the Apple II don't. And even on some systems that do use separate luma/chroma, some programs use artifacting to create colors not otherwise possible (not positive, but I think Tower Toppler does this on the 7800). And although I'm not positive, I think some systems try to convert RGB to composite by time-multiplexing the RGB signals into the composite output (i.e. output a certain mix of R and G for 69.8ns, then G for 69.8ns, then a mix of G+B for 69.8ns, then a mix of R+B for 69.8ns and repeat.

[JB]

And the NES works internally in chroma and luma, as do all color non-RGB systems.

959695[/snapback]

 

Artifact-based composite color systems such as the Apple II don't. And even on some systems that do use separate luma/chroma, some programs use artifacting to create colors not otherwise possible (not positive, but I think Tower Toppler does this on the 7800). And although I'm not positive, I think some systems try to convert RGB to composite by time-multiplexing the RGB signals into the composite output (i.e. output a certain mix of R and G for 69.8ns, then G for 69.8ns, then a mix of G+B for 69.8ns, then a mix of R+B for 69.8ns and repeat.

True. I did oversimplify the issue a bit.

 

And yah, 7800 Tower toppler uses artifacting for color.

[DracIsBack]

I assume unreliable hardware = front loader and so-so video capabilities = top loader.  The front loader has A/V outputs for as-good-as-it-gets video capabilities and similarly for the top loader's cartridge connector. 

 

 

Strangely enough, I had almost as many problems with the top loader as I did with my four front loaders. NES's just are ... not all that reliably built sadly. If the cart loader diesn't the problem, it's the unreliable carts or the flaky control pads. Sigh.

[JB]

I assume unreliable hardware = front loader and so-so video capabilities = top loader.  The front loader has A/V outputs for as-good-as-it-gets video capabilities and similarly for the top loader's cartridge connector. 

 

 

Strangely enough, I had almost as many problems with the top loader as I did with my four front loaders. NES's just are ... not all that reliably built sadly. If the cart loader diesn't the problem, it's the unreliable carts or the flaky control pads. Sigh.

959830[/snapback]

I suspect the problem with the carts has more to do with twenty years of drool on the contacts than it does with any actual quality failing.

 

The ZIF socket in the toaster NES, though... THAT was a bad idea from the start.

[Bill Brasky]

*Ironically, an RGB mod, while noon-native, IS possible. The PlayChoice10 GPU(which recreates the RGB internally) is pin-compatible with the NES/FamiCom GPU, aside from the fact that the PC10 RGB lines are ground pins on the console version. So you just pull your old GPU, bend the RGB pins up on your PC10 GPU, drop it in, and build a video amp.

959695[/snapback]

 

This doesn't work. I read a webpage that detailed this exact mod and it displays the colors wrong or at least in very wrong shades.

 

I had a Super Joy 3 famiclone that came in a N64 type joypad and it came with composite and S-video outputs.

[Jagasian]

The best NES system is an AV Famicom with a NES-to-Famicom cart adapter. That way you can play every NES and Famicom game on a reliable system with excellent audio and video output. It is also compatible with NES and Famicom peripherials, which is something that no other Famicom or NES system can do, as all other systems either have a Famicom controller port and no NES controller ports, or they have NES controller ports and no Famicom controller port.

 

Most of the toaster NES systems are unreliable because their pin connector needs to be fixed or replaced. Nobody said you have to do it yourself. There are companies/people that will repair/sell you a working original NES. Anybody who claims that the original NES has crappy video output does not know what they are talking about. The original NES has composite RCA video output, which is top-of-the-line when it comes to Famicom and NES systems. Also, not all composite RCA video output is equal. Some clones, for example, have composite RCA video out, but it is very crappy quality.

 

The official toploader NES has terrible video output quality, as it is only RF, but there are two video mods that add composite RCA video output for improved video quality. The newest such mod makes the official toploader NES have video output quality equal to an AV Famicom and toaster NES. With a Famicom-to-NES adapter, you can play Famicom games on the system, but some Famicom games make use of cart pins that the NES doesn't properly support, so you don't have perfect compatibility with Famicom games. Similarly, the system lacks a Famicom controller port, so there are some very fun peripherials, such as the Family Basic Keyboard and audio casette player which you can't use with the toploader NES.

 

The reliability issues with the toaster NES are blown way out of proportion. Any other cart based system will have reliability issues when its cart connector and carts themselves get old, dirty and worn. It is true that the original NES is particularly bad with regard to this problem, but it can be fixed either by refurbishing the cart pin connector or by replacing it. But you will still have to make sure that your carts are clean. Check out this "semi-review" of the NEX, which shows that even it has issues with old carts:

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=595687...cUserId=5379721

 

Finally, the problem with NOAC based clones is not just missing sounds, off-pitch and off-tune sound, and incorrect colors. NOAC based clones can't even run certain NES and Famicom games, and many other games have glitches and other problems when played on a clone. How happy do you think you would be if you got all the way to the end of your favorite game, only to have some glitch bring everything to a screaching halt, just because the NOAC inside your clone had some bug that the game finally stepped on?

Edited November 4, 2005 by Jagasian

[JB]

*Ironically, an RGB mod, while noon-native, IS possible. The PlayChoice10 GPU(which recreates the RGB internally) is pin-compatible with the NES/FamiCom GPU, aside from the fact that the PC10 RGB lines are ground pins on the console version. So you just pull your old GPU, bend the RGB pins up on your PC10 GPU, drop it in, and build a video amp.

959695[/snapback]

 

This doesn't work. I read a webpage that detailed this exact mod and it displays the colors wrong or at least in very wrong shades.

They probably used a Vs System chip.

The Vs System includes the PPU with the game, and each game's PPU has a color pallete that's been mucked up in a diffrent way. Was to prevent piracy, since you had to clone the game's PPU as well as the ROMs.

 

Using a PC10 PPU DOES work, as does using the PPU from Vs Duck Hunt(and 2 other games I can't recall).

 

 

http://nescenter.de/features_sharpfctitler_rgb.jpg is what the mod with the RIGHT chip winds up as.

[Teknik_SE-R]

interesting...

 

pardon my noobiness, I'm just getting into this stuff. i basically know nothing. To fix that problem see here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78716

 

from a hardware standpoint, I think the zero force connector was an excellent idea poorly executed. The theory of eliminating the "scraping" of pins and contacts as you insert a cart ensures its longevity.

 

The reason that wasn't employed correctly in the design is they didn't take advantage of the fact that it doesn't matter how hard you press on the contacts if they arent going to be sliding around and being worn out, and as long as you arent puching throught eh board or busting it straight off.

 

if nintendo would have made the pins stiffer like on the ebay replacements (don't know if it is intentional or not) then the connector/loading issue wouldn't have been so bad, and the goal of preventing contact wearwould still be achieved.

[supercat]

from a hardware standpoint, I think the zero force connector was an excellent idea poorly executed. The theory of eliminating the "scraping" of pins and contacts as you insert a cart ensures its longevity.

960254[/snapback]

 

Actually, I don't know if it's even a good idea. On a well-designed edge connector, the scraping action helps to ensure good contact by scraping away any dust that might be sitting on the contacts.

[Teknik_SE-R]

agreed, especially since the printed contacts could simply and easily be made more robust.

 

a little aluminum (is that what the print is made of?)costs much less than engineering and producing a spring loaded contraption

[johannesmutlu]

I got no problem using a noac based famiclone aslong it looks & sounds 99,9% accurate and aslong it’s 99,9% compatible with nes games,

however systems such as the generation NEX famiclone clearly did have incorrect audio and it was also not compatible with many nes games so am glad i don’t own one,BUT i do own the game axe color handheld wich uses a cloned chipset from the famicom as a saperate chipset at averagr and you can use it as a regular game console by hooking it up to a tv along with famiclone controllers to it,it’s 99,99% compatible with nes games as well with most nes accessoiresess using a dongle and it just looks & sounds 99,99% great compared to a nes nes,

 

HOWEVER another great topic for would be nes vs noac vs snes nested emulator wich runs nes rom games on a real snes by using hardware tricks & emulation,wich always was a big wetdream for me to see it happen,and while it is not yet perfect and many nes games will probably never run on it due structual hardware differences between the 2,and the snes not only relies on jJIT but also on AOT  to run nes games and depending on the speed and action of the game it can do often suffer from random hickups & slowdowns but otherwise it can run those games stable enough,the graphics looks good,the sound is mostly accurate enough (better accuracy will require more digitised sound effects) BUT as off nested version 1,8 ,even limited DMC. sound from the nes has been supported wich differs per game,but we can only expect more,

heck even many enhancement chips are supported such as the mmc3 and mmc1 chip etc,,, sadly the mmc5 chip is still yet not supported but there are plans to do so by individuals,sadly it still doesn’t support the lightgun but it should be easily possible in the future but ppersonally i really just can’t wait untill this emulator will be finilized to become as perfect as possible on the stock snes and as of now compared to some early cheap made famiclones,it’s not bad and if you compare nested v1.1 vs nested v1.8, that’s a huge leap,heck it even supports stereo and RGB colors wich can be costumed by the user,

now my next big wet dream will be to see famiclones,a cartride adaptor for snes,100 in 1 mini famiclones and snes multi cartwith famicom games on it being all based on snes nested emulator because that would be a great way to acknowledge the snes’s compatibility with nes games,

because the snes was originally ment to be compatible with nes games but it was halfway trough development scrappedBUT it’s hardware was still similar enough to eventually just make it pretty much compatible with nes games trough special software after all those dacades😁🙏👍

 

 

[Tanooki]

how come you woke up an 18 year old thread to comment on it, you could have just made a new thread, what you said enough there would work on its own but here will get even more ignored,