My review on Generation Nex

[NightSprinter]

*waves hand calling for some mods or admins* Can we please get a lock on this topic before the flames spread any further? I'm getting a bit physically nauseous reading the flame war in this thread.

[Jagasian]

Everything I say is a lie according to jagasian.

 

Jagasian, I'm lying.

 

/stands back

981346[/snapback]

 

I never said everything you say is a lie. You know that I have pointed out numerous instances of you lying. It is nice to see that you are finally starting to admit to being a liar. You have stated numerous times that you wouldn't read or respond to my posts anymore, yet you continue to do so, and many of your posts are filled with misinformation. If you want this to end, then stop perpetuating it, and next time somebody points out a technical flaw in the circuitry of an electronic device... be a man and don't personally attack them.

 

 

*waves hand calling for some mods or admins* Can we please get a lock on this topic before the flames spread any further?  I'm getting a bit physically nauseous reading the flame war in this thread.

981351[/snapback]

 

Why look if you don' t like what you see? Just ignore the thread. Also, I hope that you are not offended by me saying this, but the AV Famicom is incompatible with some NES peripherials such as the light gun. You can mod the AV Famicom to support the NES light gun and other incompatible peripherials, or you can simply use the Famicom light gun. If you are only going to play NES games, I'd suggest a refurbished original NES (omne sells a nice package for a good price), or an official NES toploader that has the second version of the AV mod.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Jagasian

[NightSprinter]

I have an NES of my own (an original toaster that works just fine), thank you. I want this thread locked because of the fact that a harmless post from someone else turned into a flame war between you and someone else.

 

So mods, can we please close the topic? I think it's about time everyone just moved along here.

[Jagasian]

I have an NES of my own (an original toaster that works just fine), thank you.  I want this thread locked because of the fact that a harmless post from someone else turned into a flame war between you and someone else.

 

So mods, can we please close the topic?  I think it's about time everyone just moved along here.

981369[/snapback]

 

I though you were considering buying an AV Famicom in one of your posts earlier in this thread. If you have a working toaster, an AV Famicom won't give you anything new with regards to NES games. However, some Famicom games require a Famicom to have their full audio goodness. Similarly, there are Famicom peripherials that require the Famicom port, something lacking on a toaster and on clones like the NEX. Some claim that the AV Famicom's video output is better than the toaster's output, but both use composite RCA video output, so the difference would be minor. Personally, I own both a toaster and an AV Famicom. Best of both worlds, in my opinion. I figure, if I am enough of a fanatic to be playing these same games for 20 years, I might as well have the a good setup for playing the games.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Jagasian

[NightSprinter]

Never said it was going to be for me. I have a friend who collects Nintendo memoribilia, and if I could snag one for cheap that was going to him as his Christmas present. Problem is, I virtually drained my bank account to acquire two copies of an R9 and one copy of an R10 set of games for the 2600. I should've been more clear on that. Now I'm officially done posting to this topic.

[Great Hierophant]

Nope. The lockout chip is actually totally irrelevant to anything aside from a toaster NES. The chip on the cart only communicates with the chip in the NES. And the chip in the NES is prevented by system design from doing anything other than resetting the deck repeatedly(the famous flashing screen of death).

 

I have heard rumors that some unlicensed games will not work without a lockout chip (i.e. in a top loading NES) because their lockout defeating circuitries will go haywire when they don't receive the expected signals from the chip. I don't believe this, instead it seems that the cartridge slot is too tight for some games and peripherals like the Game Genie. All the unlicensed games I tested in a Famicom AV, which naturally does not have a lockout chip, have never given me any trouble.

 

However, a minor point is that the Nintendo World Championships 1990 cartridges, few though they are, do require a communicating lockout chip inside the NES to initialize the on-board cartridge hardware properly. The NES lockout chip can still be disabled by cutting the pin that controls the reseting of the NES.

[JB]

Nope. The lockout chip is actually totally irrelevant to anything aside from a toaster NES. The chip on the cart only communicates with the chip in the NES. And the chip in the NES is prevented by system design from doing anything other than resetting the deck repeatedly(the famous flashing screen of death).

 

I have heard rumors that some unlicensed games will not work without a lockout chip (i.e. in a top loading NES) because their lockout defeating circuitries will go haywire when they don't receive the expected signals from the chip. I don't believe this, instead it seems that the cartridge slot is too tight for some games and peripherals like the Game Genie. All the unlicensed games I tested in a Famicom AV, which naturally does not have a lockout chip, have never given me any trouble.

 

However, a minor point is that the Nintendo World Championships 1990 cartridges, few though they are, do require a communicating lockout chip inside the NES to initialize the on-board cartridge hardware properly. The NES lockout chip can still be disabled by cutting the pin that controls the reseting of the NES.

981546[/snapback]

Interesting. I'd really like to know what's going on in that cart.

[n8littlefield]

Jagasian should calm down, and not feel too bad. Lik sang is an Internet shop. They are for net savvy consumers, and Jagasian has made the net buzz about the NEX way more negative than the pricey, cute little clone deserves. Jagasian should check out some of the third party crap Lik Sang sells. I'm sure he could find other items that would fail to meet his standards.

981302[/snapback]

 

That's why I was surprised at Lik Sang too. They sell things like GBA Movie Players that play NES roms, and you know darn well they aren't 100% compatible. I thought they would have just notified preorder people of the compatibility issues, given them the chance to opt out, then put them up for sale with the compatibility list.

[Lacan]

*waves hand calling for some mods or admins* Can we please get a lock on this topic before the flames spread any further?  I'm getting a bit physically nauseous reading the flame war in this thread.

981351[/snapback]

 

I agree, I wanted this topic closed and deleted, it was my mistake to even make this topic.

[Jagasian]

That's why I was surprised at Lik Sang too.  They sell things like GBA Movie Players that play NES roms, and you know darn well they aren't 100% compatible.  I thought they would have just notified preorder people of the compatibility issues, given them the chance to opt out, then put them up for sale with the compatibility list.

981648[/snapback]

 

I think the Lik-sang issue is a bit more complicated. They are based in China, and therefore are used to buying NES clones at extremely low wholesale prices, which can be as low as $5 (USD) per NES clone. Of course they turn around and sell them for $30 or more, but you can see that they make a huge profit doing this. With the NEX, you get was is basically the same clone in different clothes, but this time, Messiah gets it for, say $10, cuz it has a few extras in production costs, but it is still made by the same Chinese manufacturers that Lik-sang deals with on a regular basis... then Messiah turns around and sells it to retailers at a much higher cost. I don't know the details for sure, but lets say Messiah sells the NEX wholesale for $40 a system.

 

Lik-sang is no dummy. They deal with NOAC based clone manufacturers all the time. Like you said, they sell many other NOAC based products including the Neo Fami, Pocket Fami, Famicom Time Machine, etc. So from their point of view, it makes no sense to all of a sudden have a middle man taking $40 - $5 = $35 from every one of your clone sales. If the NEX really was something more than yet another NOAC based clone, and it really did offer something significantly better than other clones, Lik-sang probably wouldn't have calculated things as I think they did. So the compatibility issue does factor in, but it is part of a larger business equation.

 

Just watch where the money goes, in any situation. That seems to always be a good indicator of what is really going on. This Lik-sang thing is as much about compatibility issues as it is about not wanting a middle man to take a cut. In a sense, they would be losing money. Why make $20 on every clone sale when you can make $55 on every sale?

Edited December 13, 2005 by Jagasian

[Great Hierophant]

http://www.tripoint.org/kevtris/mappers/nes_custom/NES_EVENT.html

 

That is all the information available about the cartridge hardware.

[JB]

Interesting.

 

Neat trick, though now I'm really kinda curious as to why Nintendo rigged such an elaborate board for a one-shot deal like that.

[n8littlefield]

http://www.tripoint.org/kevtris/mappers/nes_custom/NES_EVENT.html

 

That is all the information available about the cartridge hardware.

981894[/snapback]

 

I guess I never gave this much thought - but it mentions due to it using the security chip that it won't work well on a toploader. Does the toploading NES not have a lockout chip?

[Jagasian]

I guess I never gave this much thought - but it mentions due to it using the security chip that it won't work well on a toploader.  Does the toploading NES not have a lockout chip?

981906[/snapback]

 

Yes, the top loading NES has no lockout chip. This prevents NWC from running correctly, but it can also cause problems with Camerica's unlicensed lockout chip defeater. This problem can be worked around by switching the little switch on the back of Camerica carts to the off position, as there is no lockout chip to defeat in a top loader and the game will run properly. A similar problem occurs with the NEX due to its poor wiring, but there is no work around. In either case top loader w/ "on" Camerica lockout defeater or NEX and a few select games, the game won't run, and if you leave it on, in your system long enough bad things will most certainly happen. A fire would be a stretch, but it still end up breaking your cart and system. Considering that said games don't run in this "bad" state, it is highly unlikely that anybody will ever have this problem. So the rule of thumb is, if the game doesn't run, power off your NES clone or not.

 

See more here:

http://www.tripoint.org/kevtris/mappers/lo...t/camerica.html

 

On a related note. Wouldn't it be best to not completely disable the lockout chip, but instead just modify newer revision toaster NES systems so that they can be defeated lockout defeaters. This would result in a toaster NES with the best compatibility, as it could play NWC as well as all unlicensed games. I personally have one of the older revisions of the toaster, and all of my unlicensed games work without problems, but apparently newer revision toasters made changes to the lockout circuitry so that defeaters no longer worked.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Jagasian

[J.Max]

That's why I was surprised at Lik Sang too.  They sell things like GBA Movie Players that play NES roms, and you know darn well they aren't 100% compatible.  I thought they would have just notified preorder people of the compatibility issues, given them the chance to opt out, then put them up for sale with the compatibility list.

981648[/snapback]

 

I think the Lik-sang issue is a bit more complicated. They are based in China, and therefore are used to buying NES clones at extremely low wholesale prices, which can be as low as $5 (USD) per NES clone. Of course they turn around and sell them for $30 or more, but you can see that they make a huge profit doing this. With the NEX, you get was is basically the same clone in different clothes, but this time, Messiah gets it for, say $10, cuz it has a few extras in production costs, but it is still made by the same Chinese manufacturers that Lik-sang deals with on a regular basis... then Messiah turns around and sells it to retailers at a much higher cost. I don't know the details for sure, but lets say Messiah sells the NEX wholesale for $40 a system.

 

Lik-sang is no dummy. They deal with NOAC based clone manufacturers all the time. Like you said, they sell many other NOAC based products including the Neo Fami, Pocket Fami, Famicom Time Machine, etc. So from their point of view, it makes no sense to all of a sudden have a middle man taking $40 - $5 = $35 from every one of your clone sales. If the NEX really was something more than yet another NOAC based clone, and it really did offer something significantly better than other clones, Lik-sang probably wouldn't have calculated things as I think they did. So the compatibility issue does factor in, but it is part of a larger business equation.

 

Just watch where the money goes, in any situation. That seems to always be a good indicator of what is really going on. This Lik-sang thing is as much about compatibility issues as it is about not wanting a middle man to take a cut. In a sense, they would be losing money. Why make $20 on every clone sale when you can make $55 on every sale?

981861[/snapback]

 

 

This is a good point. Why wouldn't Lik-Sang just try to manufacture one themselves?

(Besides the fact that Nintendo has come down on them for selling items like the Super UFO and the the z64). Their cost per unit would be less, they'd have direct control and it wouldn't require a huge cash outlay.

[Jagasian]

Thats just it. Lik-sang doesn't need to manufacture clones themselves, as there are Chinese manufacturers that are already doing this. These are the same manufacturers that made the NEX. You'd be surprised how many clones are out there. The workers who actually build them get paid very little. They are basically slaves. All of the money is made by the retailers. If Lik-sang can buy a NES clone for $5 or cheaper per system, why would they even want to bother making their own clone? While Nintendo might get upset about game copier devices, they could care less about clones of the NES, assuming that said clones don't contain their games.

 

A true successor to the NES could be made, if somebody bankrolled kevtris. He has the expertise to be able to make a 100% compatible and faithful clone with s-video and or even better, component video output. The problem is that ever since the invention of the NOAC, manufacturers would prefer to cut costs and avoid redesigning the core circuitry of a clone, and instead choose to redesign the outer plastic shell and the packaging. This is the story of NES and Famicom clones for the past 10 years. The same book with an ever changing cover. But you know how the saying goes.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Jagasian

[Great Hierophant]

On a related note. Wouldn't it be best to not completely disable the lockout chip, but instead just modify newer revision toaster NES systems so that they can be defeated lockout defeaters. This would result in a toaster NES with the best compatibility, as it could play NWC as well as all unlicensed games. I personally have one of the older revisions of the toaster, and all of my unlicensed games work without problems, but apparently newer revision toasters made changes to the lockout circuitry so that defeaters no longer worked.

 

American Video Entertainment in some of their later manuals instructing users on how to jumper a resistor and that would allow their lockout chip defeater to work. It should be a simple matter to extend this to other defeater circuits. This would cover some front loaders made from 1990-1993. See here:

http://nesworld.parodius.com/ave.htm

[n8littlefield]

I think the problem is that if you were to try to manufacture a more compatible NOAC you really have to choose between two audiences. The traditional clone audience, which would be cheap pricing and accept cheap quality, and the hardcore classic gamer, would would tolerate a high price for a high quality piece of equipment.

 

The Kevtris clone seems to aim too high - IMHO. I mean, just give me a toploading NES clone with 100% compatibilty and perfect A/V output for less than $150 and I'm more than content. I don't need S-Video or above, just A/V jacks are fine. I don't need USB memory drive compatibilty either. I know he's quoted very high amounts on the cost to manufacture on the small scale, but I wonder if he's really shooting too high initially.

 

It would be nice if maybe instead of working on the "ultimate NES system" maybe work on the ultimate NOAC, sell that to various manufacturers, like perhaps Messiah, and then see if there's a market for the ubernes.

[Jagasian]

It would be nice if maybe instead of working on the "ultimate NES system" maybe work on the ultimate NOAC, sell that to various manufacturers, like perhaps Messiah, and then see if there's a market for the ubernes.

982551[/snapback]

 

Yeah, that is what I had in mind. What makes the current NOACs so easy to mass produce is that they are cheap glop top ASICs. Perfect compatibility is not inherently more expensive to produce, assuming you already had the designs for such a chip. The FPGA NES would be too expensive to produce because it uses an FPGA, which is costly, but if kevtris put his same expertise towards designing a 100% compatible glop top NOAC ASIC, then you would have the best of both worlds: an inexpensive to mass produced clone that was also perfectly compatible. S-video output would not add to the cost as the video data would naturally be in RGB form. Converting to RCA composite would take as much work as converting to S-video.

 

Existing NOACs were designed at a time when S-video wasn't common, and that is why clones never support anything but composite RCA. S-video versus RCA composite has little to do with cost. It is more proof that all clones are all using the same few NOACs. Messiah is using a chip with extended graphics modes, which sounds very similar to a NOAC that Memblers mentioned getting a sales brochure for a long time ago. That fact, the RCA composite bit, and the claim of Neo Fami compatibility were the three things that made be realize early on that Messiah's NEX was most likely going to be using a common NOAC.

 

While the Flashback 2's 2600-on-a-chip is not perfect, it is a step in the right direction considering that money was put towards designing a better clone, and not just one based on a NOAC, as was the case with the Flashback 1. All that is needed now is for the Flashback to continue to refine its chip to work all of the bugs out. Hopefully Messiah will do the same with a NEX 2.

[classicgamingguy]

Okay...after reading this thread, I'm assuming the following:

 

The Nex is a clone of the NES

That it has incompatibility issues

That it DOESN'T have a front loader

That it will play U.S. NES games (some)

 

Is that about right, or did I fall asleep at some point and missed the boat, as usual?

 

Steve

[n8littlefield]

Okay...after reading this thread, I'm assuming the following:

 

The Nex is a clone of the NES

That it has incompatibility issues

That it DOESN'T have a front loader

That it will play U.S. NES games (some)

 

Is that about right, or did I fall asleep at some point and missed the boat, as usual?

 

  Steve

982609[/snapback]

 

 

Pretty much:

 

The Generation NEX is an NES clone

It has built-in wireless receivers compatible with Messiah's wireless pads

It has similar incompatibility as other clones

It plays U.S. and Famicom games (front loads the NES, top loads the Famicom)

It costs $60

It is rather swanky

[Great Hierophant]

Improving the clone's circuitry would involve time and effort that apparently no clone IC manufacturer is willing to provide. Also, a more accurate NOAC may be more complex to manufacture and therefore more expensive and time consuming to produce. It could be argued that the NOAC fabricators know that their product is substandard, could improve it but do not because of the price increase.

 

However, the incompatibility with NES cartridges, as opposed to working with the Famicom cartridges with the same hardware inside, suggests that NEX and other clone manufacturers made assumptions about the NES cartridge interface that just aren't true. They didn't research and didn't test, even though the games in question are not particularly rare. Had they done so, they could have made the games work without taking away from the bottom line. Had they spent more time on that and less time on the built-in wireless (as the controllers come with external adaptors), then they would be in a much better position. Hopefully the next clone manufacturer will take note, but I doubt it.

 

It does suggest that something is seriously wrong when you have to post a compatibility list for a console replacement. That an occassional game may not work is one thing, but when a whole class of games doesn't work, then you have real design problems.

[Teknik_SE-R]

Messiah told me, when I got a refund on my preorder, that they are working on fixing the "major" problems with the system.

 

They said that the sound issues are the the main focus (quietness and inaccuracy) then comes the video (screen shift, color inaccuracy, and garbled tile issues)

then the compatibility.

 

They said sound issues will be fixed for sure, but, no guarantees on fixing the video or improving the compatibiliity.

 

What it sounds like to me is that they plan on making the console more compatible with the games they already say are compatible.

 

I plan on buying the "improved" version when it comes out (reportedly after february) I don't think I'd mind the problems withthe current one, but I hane no reason not to wait for a better version.

[ApolloBoy]

Can someone please kindly tell me what the hell that argument was about earlier?

[n8littlefield]

Can someone please kindly tell me what the hell that argument was about earlier?

986163[/snapback]

 

 

Loaded question but here goes...

 

Basically Messiah announced this system. Some people (myself included) felt the pre-release information indicated better compatibility than previous clones. The build up to the system continued, and more and more the system started to sound like a typical Famiclone. In the end, the NEX came out, it did have the compatibility issues that many expected it would have.

 

The bad feelings come from threads here and on digitpress. It started when Jag pointed out that it sounded like a typical Famiclone. Someone there stated they worked for Messiah and they were certain it wasn't, and the arguments got heated. The system came out, Jag was right, and this person backtracked, said they were just a distributer and did not have information on the chips inside.

 

Since then, there have been alot of "heated" discussion about what was promised vs what was delivered - mostly arguments between the two distributer reps and a few people who were especially upset with what they say as lies to get more pre-orders for the system.

 

Truthfully - it feels like 99% of the arguments could have been avoided if it weren't for DreamTr on the digitpress boards claiming to have definate info on the system that apparently he never was privy to.

 

Edit: For either Jag or OMNE if that isn't a fair representation let me know and I'll definately edit my summary - that's just how it looked from someone partially involved...

Edited December 20, 2005 by n8littlefield