IGN's Ignorant NEX Review

[JB]

Haw.

I think they're as full of it as Monster is(even ignoring the gold-plated connectors, which EVERYONE misrepresents).

 

 

Since you emphasize that they're audio cables, I must point out that those could also be mono video cables(perfect for NES use!). Or even chroma/luma cables, perfect for connecting a modded Atari to a Commodore monitor.

Despite what SOME companies claim, there's not really a diffrence between diffrent kinds of signals aside from video being more susceptable to interference.

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Of course if you want to get technical for analog outputs, silver is better for audio anyway!!!!!

995957[/snapback]

I assume you mean connectors isntead of wires.

You got a REASON for that, or are you just copying more advertising material.

 

I actually know the reasons for gold connectors, and more importantly, I know when they are and aren't appropriate.

[gamer1682]

Im sorry...

but i think what IGN said was great. I got a NEX for cristmas and love it. yeah I know that the rev coming out soon or I can get my hands dirty and download roms via emulator, but collecting good carts for a cheap price while still being retail is a good idea. Hey it plays 95% frickin percent of all NES games. compare that to the xbox 360's compatibility to "emulate" about 50% of all Xbox games. Its truly a half empty/half full controversy. but when you look at it on the bright side its a very cool system, and after a while the controller doesnt seem that small anymore either.

[Jagasian]

Why compare the NEX's compatibility with the NES against the 360's compatibility with the original Xbox? The NEX's sole purpose is to play NES games, while the 360's sole purpose is to play 360 games. It is comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison, as given many times before, is to compare the NEX against other unlicensed NES clones, emulation, and official licensed NES systems.

 

The IGN review is only great if "great" is equivalent to being loaded with incorrect facts and poor testing of a product that is supposed to be critically reviewed.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Jagasian

[Great Hierophant]

The Xbox 360 is a much more powerful system than the Xbox, uses different hardware than the Xbox and plays Xbox games via emulation. The NEX has is supposed to recreate the exact same hardware as the NES (there are unsubstantiated rumors that it has additional functionality) and does not rely on emulation.

 

I have often thought that the best way of going about cloning a NES was to offer a kit with all the passive/active components and the common ICs on the board in a casing similar to the NES top loader. All that need be provided is the NES CPU and PPU chips, which would be inserted into IC sockets.

[Jagasian]

Great Hierophant,

 

That would be a great idea for permenantly fixing the toaster's issues, and I am sure that the new NES motherboard could be made much smaller than the original. If you were going to make such a thing, you might as well add all of the necessary circuitry to allow for a proper Famicom cart slot, Famicom extension port, as well as the NES cart slot and NES controller ports. It would be easy to get perfect reliability and compatibility with all NES and Famicom games and peripherials. RF could be dropped to save money, and simply include RCA composite AV.

 

It should cost little to produce, and if the manufacturer obtained a few thousand used toasters and Famicoms, the cost of installing the CPU and PPU chips would be minimal.

[JB]

Great Hierophant,

 

That would be a great idea for permenantly fixing the toaster's issues, and I am sure that the new NES motherboard could be made much smaller than the original.  If you were going to make such a thing, you might as well add all of the necessary circuitry to allow for a proper Famicom cart slot, Famicom extension port, as well as the NES cart slot and NES controller ports.  It would be easy to get perfect reliability and compatibility with all NES and Famicom games and peripherials.  RF could be dropped to save money, and simply include RCA composite AV.

 

It should cost little to produce, and if the manufacturer obtained a few thousand used toasters and Famicoms, the cost of installing the CPU and PPU chips would be minimal.

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The extra circuitry you mention would also be minimal. It's all just extra connectors and wires.

Except FamiCom audio. To do that right in a FC/NES combo, you need a switch.

[Great Hierophant]

I really wish I could take the Sharp Twin Famicom, which has the FDS RAM Adapter integrated into the Famicom's PCB and AV output as a starting point, then ditch the hardwired controllers and add the NES controller ports and the 72 Pin Connector. Also, I think the FDS boot ROM should say "Nintendo" as it does on the separate FDS instead of "FAMICOM" as it does on the Sharp Twin. Now, what would happen is if you start up the system without a cartridge, you will get to the FDS Boot Screen (with Mario and Luigi). If you insert a cartridge, you will boot the cartridge. But due to the custom circuit contained in the RAM adapter, this is a pipe dream.

 

For the basic device, I wonder whether it would be feasible to include support for the RGB PPU, which would require its own signal booster circuitry for each color element and an additional line for the sync signal. To do that you would really need a 4-in-1 switch (lines grounded if using a composite PPU.) But this is just a pipe dream.

[omne]

Stop yapping and get making it guys.

[keilbaca]

The only thing the Monster cables that come with it I can see be good, is modify one end, hook the video lead to an original woody atari 2600, and give it the thicker, better cable needed to get a clearer rf picture.

[JB]

Stop yapping and get making it guys.

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But I'm tired...

[omne]

No really! Lots of solid criticisms and clever ideas. Now do something with it, as opposed to impotently talking about it.

 

It can be done. I'm sure if you started small, became a small company, made the best system you could, and then released it for sale, the community would give it a fair shake, and it would succeed or fail based on it's merits.

 

I'm sure your effort would be heralded on these forums the way you would like.

[JB]

Seriously, I don't have a problem with the toaster.

 

If it were up to me the upgrade package would be a new case and a replacement connector.

 

*thinks*

Okay, a 'y' replacement connector, so you'd have NES and FamiCom slots. And a jumper for FamiCom audio(I still can't believe they used final-stage output there instead of pulling it BEFORE the amp...).

[omne]

Yeah, it is easier simply commenting on the shortfalls of the efforts of others.

 

Simply 'not buying' products that don't appeal to a person isn't as much fun.

[JB]

If the NEX had delivered on the explicit and implied promises, I WOULD have bought one(remember, I consider aesthetics, and the NEX is pretty damn sexy next to the toaster).

 

 

If they'd delivered on their promise, they'd be hailed to the heavens.

 

If they'd admitted that they weren't functionally close to the NES in many major respects instead of continuing to push the product as an NES replacement(or never hyped it as such to start with), no one would care either way.

 

 

 

 

Here's the part you don't seem to get.

A lot of people are quite annoyed that they were mislead, and now have to either jump through hoops to return the thing or eat 60$.

 

If I weren't of the general opinion that pre-orders are stupid, and hadn't caught a few very red flags showing up in their PR releases in advance of the release, I would be VERY pissed that I'd thrown 60$ away on something that was useless except as a decoration. And it's not nice enough to be JUST decoration.

 

You will note that I DIDN'T buy a NEX.

But I didn't immediatly discard the idea either. I puyt it on a wait-and-see list. I hoped I was being overly paranoid. I pointed it out to some other people. Along with my concerns, but I DID mention there was a good chance they were unfounded.

 

Then the red flags turned out to be real issues and not false alarms, and I was very disappointed.

 

 

I WANTED the NEX to succeed. But I wanted it to do so on merit, not marketing.

 

 

 

 

And what the hell is wrong with voicing opinions?

You wouldn't be bitching if it was a bunch of people babbling about how they didn't have NEXes but thought they'd make a great purchase.

But apparently if someone DOESN'T like it, they aren't allowed to share this opinion.

 

 

I have a counter-proposal: Why don't YOU quit bitching about us bitching about the NEX?

If you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that. We don't need to hear your opinion on our opinion.

 

Same logic you present for your "shut up about NEX" argument. So now you're a hypocrite if you don't ignore it.

 

We win either way.

[omne]

have to either jump through hoops to return the thing or eat 60$.

 

prove that.

 

whatever the hell you said in your post

 

Show me where I said you can't voice your opinion. Quotes please. Otherwise cork your cry hole.

\

I complimented some of you on solid criticisms, and neat ideas. Now I challenge you guys to do something more than bitch.

 

The continued bitching proves what will be done with the challenge.

 

I'm sure all of you would have done better. Because you say you would.

 

Good on ya! Far be it from me to inject reality into the fantasy. I sincerely hope everyones fantasy console builds itself.

 

I too like the toaster just fine. OSG will soon be offering the new AV mod for top loader enthusiasts. The required parts are on order, and the first mod will be done in a week or few.

 

^That's what actually doing something looks like.

[JB]

have to either jump through hoops to return the thing or eat 60$.

 

prove that.

There's no return information on Messiah's site.

Automatically, you can't even begin planning a return until you e-mail them.

There's not even mention of a return policy. The only way to find out you CAN return them is to e-mail them complaining about how crappy their product is, or catch someone else mentioning it.

That's hoops right there.

 

 

And while mining quotes, I see you only take returns on unopened NEXes, and you state you're Messiah's official canadian supplier. That implies people that try it and aren't happy with it are just plain out of luck.

 

whatever the hell you said in your post

 

Show me where I said you can't voice your opinion. Quotes please. Otherwise cork your cry hole.

 

A quote won't quite do justice, as most are implications and not direct statements. But ...

Yeah, it is easier simply commenting on the shortfalls of the efforts of others.

 

Simply 'not buying' products that don't appeal to a person isn't as much fun.

That implies that criticism is invalid and unwanted.

 

bones (who actually has one in his hands) likes his NEX?

 

Imagine that.

 

And the biggest haters don't. But they post lots.

 

and

 

Even harder when the net is full of crusaders who post over and over against something they don't own, and never wanted to own.

 

 

The common theme in many of your posts is "If you don't like it, don't buy it. But you arne't allowed to gripe if you don't buy."

And yes, I AM aware of you and Jagasian's little feud.

 

I complimented some of you on solid criticisms, and neat ideas. Now I challenge you guys to do something more than bitch.

 

The continued bitching proves what will be done with the challenge. 

 

I'm sure all of you would have done better. Because you say you would.

I lack the business knowledge and financial assets to design and market a product.

Financial assets can be gotten around with a loan, but I don't believe I can get one(I don't want to go into the reasons why not, so lets just say I'm a REALLY bad credit risk).

 

 

If I were in Messiah's position, though...

The way I see it, there's 2 markets the NEX targets.

 

1 is Messiah's initial market, and their only one pre-NEX. The die-hard classic gamers. Mostly collectors. Us, in short.

As a community, we tend to have high standards for products. Expectations of "pixel-perfect" classic ports, for example.

 

2 is Joe Average. He doesn't play many games. Probably hasn't owned an NES in over a decade. This is the same group that's inflated classic game prices in stores and on eBay, because they WILL pay five bucks for a Mario/Duck Hunt cart(everything old is rare, right?). The only reason he's interested in the NEX is nostalgia for the NES of his youth, but that was a long time ago and his memory is a tad fuzzy. His standards are... lower.

To use the classic port example: He doesn't CARE if the PacMan sound is wrong, if the pattern works, or even if the maze is the same. As long as a yellow hockey puck moves about the screen, he's fine with it.

...

He probably also thinks PacMan was from Nintendo, and Donkey Kong from Atari, but that's another thread entirely(DK being an Atari property made it into an NYTimes crossword puzzle recently).

 

 

 

The NEX is Messiah's first product that has any appeal to category 2.

And the unfortunate NOAC incident makes it the first one with minimal appeal to category 1(excepting collectors of Famiclones).

 

 

I assume Messiah's initial intent WAS to create a fairly accurate NES clone, based on the fact that their sole market at the time it was announced was group 1, the presence of the Famicom slot, which is of no real use to group 2, and the tone of the press releases, which carried that implication.

 

Either due to price issues or mass-market reaction to the NEX announcements, they shifted to the NOAC design that we know and loathe. The target market shifted to group 2.

At this point, I would have made an announcement at major community hubs(such as DigitPress and AtariAge) to inform group 1 of the issue. 1 gave them the footing to do the NEX in the first place, and they got a lot of preorders at CGE, as I recall. It had been largely assumed the NEX was to cater to group 1, with 2 as a possible fringe benefit.

 

 

Given the lack of sockets in the NES, I'd be less inclined to come forward with a CPU/PPU transplant board alternative as was suggested in this thread.

Like I said, though... new case and a new connector would be a viable option. Construction of the NES makes that a very simple and reliable product. Can't do too much for size, sadly, but I CAN improve aesthetics and reliability. A good connector should minimize issues with both data and lockout connections. Addition of a 60-pin connector gives the reboxed NES FamiCom compatibility.

.. .

Wait... the damned lockout chip is complicating my design. I already needed a switch to enable/disable FamiCom audio passthrough(tapped straight from the right-side RCA jacks, with both ports moved to the back, and audio taking a slight detour through the cart slot mechanism, and if the switch is on FC, through the FC cart), but now I have to kill all the lines in the NES slot except the ones needed for the NES10, and rig a piggyback.

...

Integrating a NES10 to the new cart connector assembly would be better, but requires me to either reverse-engineer it or kill a LOT of Mario/DuckHunts.

 

 

If it can be done at a feasable price point, I'd run with a NES10 clone. Feasability likely depends on finding documentation.

 

If I can't get documentation, I'll include instructions for disabling the NES10 as well as a provision for piggyback(I don't consider requiring a soldering iron feasable, or I'd just transplant the CPU and PPU and be done with it)... gods, I hope there's 1-2-pins that can kill the whole cart... Best kill switch location would be in the FamiCom slot, so inserting an FC cart automatically kills the NES slot. Add my FC/NES audio switch there too, for fully automatic mode sense.

 

 

 

The case would probably, lacking a better idea right now, be similar in approach to the NEX shell. A spruced-up derivative of the existing NES design. Maybe play with the exact shades a little. I like the toaster's basic style, but see room for improvement. in the actual implementation. Maybe ofer it in a few color variants(if I had to bet, "just black" would be a popular alternative to NES-derived colors).

 

My transplant box will wind up larger than a NEX due to the NES board(unfortunate, but unavoidable). I'm keeping NES carts as front-loading because they just look absurd poking out the top of anything. No ZIF, though. Straight in/out.

 

If I recall, the power/reset switches and controller ports are socketed, so my case can include it's own.

Though stealing the existing ones I KNOW is possible if I can't swap in my own for some reason, that places more restrictions on design(not so much on the controller ports, but the switches would definitely be one).

 

 

Too bad the NES power section is on the mainboard. If that was seperate I could trim some size by supplying my own. Ah well...

 

 

 

The end result would be more like an NES++ than the existing NEX.

I can shave a bit off on the left edge, but I'll gain at least part of it back when I'm internalizing and moving the AV ports, which I have to do for my FC sound tap anyways.

Depth and height are quite tweakable though, so it'll be somewhat smaller.

 

Good on ya! Far be it from me to inject reality into the fantasy. I sincerely hope everyones fantasy console builds itself.

That WOULD be nice...

*starts transmuting NES with sheer will*

...

Yeah, that's not working.

 

*grabs a can of black spraypaint and makes those damned air vents black like htey should be*

That does, though.

 

I too like the toaster just fine. OSG will soon be offering the new AV mod for top loader enthusiasts. The required parts are on order, and the first mod will be done in a week or few.

 

^That's what actually doing something looks like.

Nice to see you fixing the top-loaders up. I always thought RF-only was a rather dumb move there(and the new video amp certianly helps too).

 

 

 

*looks at clock*

...

I think I just spent an hour writing up plans for an NES upgrade no one's ever gonna do. Hypernerd powers, activate.

Edited January 15, 2006 by JB

[Great Hierophant]

Personally, I can't wait for OSG to begin testing the new top loader design. It would be so much more convenient not to have to insert and remove Lik Sang's too-thick 72-60 pin converter every time I wanted to play a NES game. Since I got my Famicom Disk System, my Famicom AV may be primarily relegated to use just as a disk system.

 

Messiah's seems to be incompetent or underinformed when it comes to the NES. Their wireless controllers use a circular pad instead of the regular cross. Try playing Zelda or Contra with that, just to take two examples. Messiah simply transplanted their SNES wireless pad design to the NES, but whatever is good for the SNES is not necessarily good for the NES.

 

When I bought the Yobo console last year, I knew there would be problems with it. My goal was to catalog those problems, inform more knowledgeable people about them and hopefully find solutions for them. For the games that don't work at all, the solution seems to be to properly and fully wire the cartridge slot. I hear the many sound problems are caused by an easily fixable problem in the two of the sound channels.

 

While an incompetent design is deplorable in and of itself when tied to a $60 product, it becomes truly offensive when combined with their marketing double-talk. Messiah never bothered to test their console rigorously, it merely took whatever PCB South-East Asian factory came up with and put it into their case. By that time, they had already ordered thousands of PCBs, so it was too late to fix any problems and all they could do is to cover their asses by presenting the NEX as something other than the old product in new clothes.

[Jagasian]

The NEX is the result of out sourcing R&D to China, plain and simple. But don't complain unless you yourself manufacture unlicensed NES clones, or at least own a NEX, right? That kind of reasoning would imply that people can't complain that Vioxx causes heart attacks because they themselves don't make and sell prescription drugs. Or is it OK as long as the critics buy Vioxx? Omne, there is nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in a consumer product. As long as such criticism is based on facts, then it doesn't matter if the ctitic owns a NEX or produces unlicensed NES clones.

 

Messiah is getting burned because they tried to pull a bait-n-switch on the classic gaming community.

[JB]

Their wireless controllers use a circular pad instead of the regular cross.  Try playing Zelda or Contra with that, just to take two examples. 

Why would I do that? I have an Advantage.

[omne]

"NEX returns to OSG only for unopened" applies only to all OSG NEX pre-orders, that wish to return due to incompatibility issues. OSG notified every single pre-order customer with compatibility issues prior to shipping, allotting for a full refund opportunity, if they wished. NO ONE has wanted to return an NEX they simply did not like. If they wished to, an OSG 'store credit' would definitely be in order. Cash Refunds would be considered on a case by case basis. A small company has to be careful about refund abuse.

 

Zero customers took advantage of the offer. No units have ever been returned for any of the reasons in these threads. One was returned (and exchanged) because it was faulty. Customer wanted an exchange. Not a refund. I can't speak for Messiah in the US policies. I set OSG's.

 

NEX's continue to sell well in maintream markets.

 

I lack the business knowledge and financial assets to design and market a product.

 

Indeed. Proving my point that criticism is easier. Not disallowed. Not bad. Simply easy. Read what I type, not what you imagine.

 

As a gamer myself, I will admit to wishing the NEX had more under the hood. However, it is just a fancy clone, with nbells and whistles to make it look much better than the cheaper ones. My knowledge of marketing tells me the best way to sell more, in the mainstream, is to do exactly what Messiah did.

 

The best product, and the best selling product may not be mutually inclusive.

Edited January 15, 2006 by omne

[JB]

"NEX returns to OSG only for unopened" applies only to all OSG NEX pre-orders, that wish to return due to incompatibility issues. OSG notified every single pre-order customer with compatibility issues prior to shipping, allotting for a full refund opportunity, if they wished. NO ONE has wanted to return an NEX they simply did not like. If they wished to, an OSG 'store credit' would definitely be in order.  Cash Refunds would be considered on a case by case basis. A small company has to be careful about refund abuse.

M'kay.

*warm fuzzies*

 

Zero customers took advantage of the offer. No units have ever been returned for any of the reasons in these threads. One was returned (and exchanged) because it was faulty. Customer wanted an exchange. Not a refund.  I can't speak for Messiah in the US policies. I set OSG's.

I wasn't sure if that was your policy or related to Messiah's in general.

 

NEX's continue to sell well in maintream markets.

I don't doubt it.

I've got a somewhat dim view of the mainstream game market, though.

 

 

I lack the business knowledge and financial assets to design and market a product.

 

Indeed. Proving my point that criticism is easier. Not disallowed. Not bad. Simply easy. Read what I type, not what you imagine.

English doesn't work that way, sadly. Implications are a large part of the language.

 

 

I would say that intelligent criticism is somewhat less easy than criticism in general.

There's a diffrence between many(but not all) of the NEX criticisms and the guy whining beause his SNES can't run N64 carts.

 

 

And what I DO have is technical knowledge. While that only goes so far, I consider it adequate for some criticisms.

 

 

 

 

Of course, there's a possibility that future runs of the hardware may be improved to kill some of the current issues.

 

Been peaking over at NESDev intermittently and someone's rigged a cheap circuit that reverses the reversed sound bits, which basically fixes the audio issues.

And I gather several of the broken games are due to a mis-wired cart slot. That could be fixed too.

 

The need to create a new PCB to accomodate these changes, combined with the NEX's mass-market success, greatly lessens the chances. I gather PCB redesigns are a tad pricey, and they don't need the NEX to appeal to the niche market anymore.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if they DO attempt to improve it, though I no longer expect an attempt at reverse-engineering the original chips.

 

 

As a gamer myself, I will admit to wishing the NEX had more under the hood. However, it is just a fancy clone, with nbells and whistles to make it look much better than the cheaper ones. My knowledge of marketing tells me the best way to sell more, in the mainstream, is to do exactly what Messiah did.

 

The best product, and the best selling product may not be mutually inclusive.

And a lot of the frustration stems from Messiah's market transition.

The NEX was their first mainstream product. At least initially, it was presented as another niche product.

 

 

 

Anyways, there were a lot of small things that could've been done to prevent this from getting as out of hand as it did, but for whatever reason, those things weren't done. It probably has at least a little to do with Messiah's current size, admittedly. I gather they're a VERY small outfit at this point.

 

 

Of course, there's also the possibility their hardware guys were assuring them the final product would NOT be the same old FamiClone and that they WERE developing new hardware, which would've made them very disappointed in their product too.

If that's the case, odds greatly improve that we'll see an improved version later.

[omne]

Gotta hand it to you JB. Reasonable, thought out response. You didn't hit me with spittle when you responded. I'm so used to misdirected heat, and baseless accusations of criminality, it's refreshing to read a reasoned response.

 

From another thread, and another poster, on another topic (Random Terrain):

 

I think it's best to consult a lawyer before you post anything. You never know how someone is going to interpret what you say. Every sentence needs to be expanded into at least 5 paragraphs so that the meaning is obvious to even the most dense.

 

A mob can form quickly and you can be labeled as an a-hole or a troll before you've had a chance to respond. Your attempts to explain what you thought was obvious in the first place and your call for people to look back at what you said can be seen as "classic troll behavior." A mob can create a troll or an a-hole out of thin air. Even if you're lucky enough to have it all cleared up, you'll usually end up with some damage while the mob goes off on their merry way without a scratch.

 

Mobs are worse than real trolls. They do more damage because mobs are usually made up of pillars of the community, honorable men and women. The quickly formed "upright citizens brigade" goes on a little crusade hacking and slashing, raping and pillaging, drinking from golden chalices full of warm human blood, then they go back to their self-satisfied lives where they are convinced that they have never committed an evil act, as blood drips down their chins.

 

IMO this sentiment can be applied to all of the flamed out NEX threads. Reasoned criticisms get whipped into mob frenzy, with people who do not even understand what is happening pile on. The hurt personal feelings of one (or a few) iterated and re-iterated to feed the surging mob.

 

If only everyone could respond honestly, and intelligently like JB just did. I would think more highly of internet forums. Sadly, the quote above more or less rules the day.

Edited January 16, 2006 by omne

[JB]

Gotta hand it to you JB. Reasonable, thought out response. You didn't hit me with spittle when you responded. I'm so used to misdirected heat, and baseless accusations of criminality, it's refreshing to read a reasoned response.

Thank you.

[Jagasian]

In conclusion, the NEX sucks.

[jsoper]

I'm sure all of you would have done better. Because you say you would.

 

Good on ya! Far be it from me to inject reality into the fantasy. I sincerely hope everyones fantasy console builds itself.

1000610[/snapback]

Sorry to drag the negativity back up, but this post had me laughing my behind off. I've become a little burned out on AA lately for the same reasons, everyone is always questioning or debating how to do things and no one ever follows up.

 

Take that thread on replacing 2600 paddles with optical encoders, just talk talk talk but did anyone build it? It's kinda like magpies jabbering on a fence

 

And if anyone wants to see my version of a fantasy Nintendo console, wait another month. This one's going to be good, it's kinda like a NEX that took a steroid overdose.

Edited January 17, 2006 by jsoper