800 keyboard with a 800 xl?

[doctorclu]

Argueably the best aspects of the Atari 8-bit world I would like to combine. The keyboard of the Atari 800 with the motherboard of a 800 xl.

 

I know this has been done before. I know that the keyboard matrix' are somewhat different. I have seen a XL keyboard used on a 400 and what was involved with that, but where can I find information to have the 800 keyboard work on the 800 xl?

 

Thanks!

[Gunstar]

I remember seeing an 800 online somewhere that had been basically gutted and had a 130XE MB in it, but that's it. But I would think that's the way you want to go with the 800XL MB too, since the Atari keyboards aren't interchangable between 800 and XL's or XE's. You may be able to do a Google search for the 800 mod I'm talking about and find something, maybe the tranlation from XE to XL wouldn't be to difficult.

[Cybernoid]

Looking at the 800 Schematic and the 800XL schematic, it seems that the keyboard connector is the same... 17pin single in-line header. The ribbon cable from the 800 Keyboard might just fit onto the XL motherboard without problem...

 

Though, I would be sure until I opened up both...

 

Edited January 4, 2006 by Cybernoid

[Cybernoid]

Also, you wouldn't happen to have an extra 800 Keyboard would ya?

 

It would be interesting to replace my 130XE keyboard with the 800... though, I know that I would have to either build a 800 keyboard to plastic header adaptor for the 130xe or replace the 130xe connector with a pin header.

[doctorclu]

Looking at the 800 Schematic and the 800XL schematic, it seems that the keyboard connector is the same... 17pin single in-line header.  The ribbon cable from the 800 Keyboard might just fit onto the XL motherboard without problem...

 

Though, I would be sure until I opened up both...

 

993971[/snapback]

 

That would be nice. However I doubt this somehow. Not that I won't try of course.

 

I remember that when my dad added the xl keyboard to the 400, a chip had to be added to the 400 motherboard and a few wires jumpered. Need to get a picture of that.

 

I believe there was a little more smarts to the early keyboard, or that the encoding happened on the keyboard, where later the encoding took place on the motherboard of the XL.

 

Where are some good schematics on line of both the 800 and 800 xl? If nothing else we could check the pinouts of the two keyboards.

 

As for more 800 keyboards, there might be more out there. Have to see what we can dig up.

[+Stephen]

Also, you wouldn't happen to have an extra 800 Keyboard would ya?

 

It would be interesting to replace my 130XE keyboard with the 800... though, I know that I would have to either build a 800 keyboard to plastic header adaptor for the 130xe or replace the 130xe connector with a pin header.

993972[/snapback]

 

While that would definitely be cool, the easiest thing would be to get a "touch-type" keyboard upgrade for the 130XE from Best. I just did this upgade to my 130XE, and it makes a major difference. It cost $15 and took about 30 minutes (including the time to scrub the keyboard and dry it before re-assembly).

 

Stephen Anderson

Edited January 5, 2006 by Stephen

[doctorclu]

 

While that would definitely be cool, the easiest thing would be to get a "touch-type" keyboard upgrade for the 130XE from Best. I just did this upgade to my 130XE, and it makes a major difference. It cost $15 and took about 30 minutes (including the time to scrub the keyboard and dry it before re-assembly).

 

Stephen Anderson

994239[/snapback]

 

Not a bad idea.

 

Ok, for anyone interested in what it takes to port a XL keyboard to say an Atari 400, I have here a bunch of fuzzy pictures of what my dad had to go through to get it to work. Looking at it years later I appreciate what my dad had to go through.

 

As you can see possibly, a chip was added (needed to look up the number since these pictures taken with the camera phone just didn't quite do it) with runs ran to nearby resistors on the motherboard while traces are run on the underside as well. Looks like he removed the ribbon cable from the keyboard (again 1400 keyboard from a radio shack kit they sold from the extras that they bought from Atari) and ran wires from the keyboard to be soldered directly to the motherboard.

 

You can see what this keyboard looks like on the 400 at...

 

http://www.geocities.com/clu-da-bard/Aut_0017.jpg

 

That poor computer was my first computer back when another 8-bit computer costs at least $79.00 (price of the Atari 800 xl at Federated) and that was a lot more than I had. So with dad's help that computer was hacked to hell. Keyboard addition, had to replace the pokey chip once (not cheap back then) and homemade 48K upgrade. Wow.

 

So this is one example of what one person had to go through when adapting a keyboard across the axion/xl rift.

 

So is there any place to look up schematics on the internet of the 800 and 800 xl?

[carmel_andrews]

An XE Mobo in an old 800, this i would like to see...and in fully working order asd well

[doctorclu]

An XE Mobo in an old 800, this i would like to see...and in fully working order asd well

994484[/snapback]

 

That is what I would like to see myself. Love the 800 case and keyboard, but the 48K limitation is a bit daunting.

 

Keep the case and keyboard and give the 800 an upgrade in the form of a XL or XE, and well.. perfect 8-bit computer in my book.

 

(Some would say the 800 case is too huge to be practical, but many have liked the keyboard)

 

The XE in the 800 case has been done before according to the above, but so far searches on the internet have yet to find out more about that. That is why I posted the 1400 keyboard on a 400 in the meantime to show another example.

[Cybernoid]

Here are some Schematy!!!

 

 

http://jsobola.republika.pl/schematy.htm

800xl.pdf

[Cybernoid]

According to the schematics posted above, it looks like the 800 Keyboard connector has the same pinout and the same connections as the 800XL keyboard.

 

However, the console keys were not connected to the keyboard connector on the 800. On the 800XL, pins 20-23 are Start, Select, Option and Reset. On the 800, there is another 4 pin header labeled J202 for these. So more than likely you will need to make these connections separately...

 

I have seen some pictures of the inside of various 800XLs and there seem to be at least two different headers for the keyboard... one that has pins that a ribbon cable connects to, and one that has a slot for a cable to slide into.

 

I will pop open one of my XLs tonight and see... what is in there...

 

Either way, there doesn't seem to be anything but straight connections that will need to be done. Not sure why your dad added chips, but the 400 and 1200XL are different beasts...

 

So, in order to shim a 800 keyboard into a 800XL, connect the 800 Keyboard connector to J8 in the XL, and wire the console key wires normally connected to J202 in the 800 to pins 20-23 on the XL keyboard connector... voila!

[doctorclu]

Here are some Schematy!!!

 

 

http://jsobola.republika.pl/schematy.htm

994529[/snapback]

 

You rock as usual. (I bet you'll be glad to not have me saying how your programs don't work on the stock 800)

 

Ok, I'll take these and compare them to the 800 schematics I have back at home.

[Cybernoid]

Doc,

 

From the pictures you posted of the 400, your dad soldered directly to the Pokey.

 

He did this because: the schematic of the 1200XL keyboard shows that the two 4051s are now on the keyboard itself, so he needed to bypass these. That is why your picture shows lines connected to the 4051 sockets (infact, one 4051 is missing from your 400 motherboard).

 

So, the 1200XL keyboard to 400 modification would be a bit more difficult than connecting an 800 keyboard to an 800XL, I think.

 

--C--

[doctorclu]

Doc,

 

From the pictures you posted of the 400, your dad soldered directly to the Pokey.

 

He did this because: the schematic of the 1200XL keyboard shows that the two 4051s are now on the keyboard itself, so he needed to bypass these.  That is why your picture shows lines connected to the 4051 sockets (infact, one 4051 is missing from your 400 motherboard). 

 

So, the 1200XL keyboard to 400 modification would be a bit more difficult than connecting an 800 keyboard to an 800XL, I think. 

 

--C--

994647[/snapback]

 

Thanks for clarifying on that.

 

So if we were to follow this chain of logic (until I get the specs for the 800 dug up...)

 

Axion/800 - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

800 XL - Had 4051 chips on the keyboard, not the motherboard.

 

So you put a 800 keyboard (with no 4051's resident) and attach it to a 800 xl with no 4051's... and you are flying blind.

 

I'll test this more when I get home.

[Cybernoid]

Axion/800 - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

800 XL    -  Had 4051 chips on the keyboard, not the motherboard.

 

 

No. No. No. Wrong.

 

This is the correct statement:

 

Axion/800 - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

800XL - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

1200 XL - Had 4051 chips on the keyboard, not the motherboard.

[doctorclu]

Axion/800 - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

800 XL     -  Had 4051 chips on the keyboard, not the motherboard.

 

 

No. No. No. Wrong.

 

This is the correct statement:

 

Axion/800 - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

800XL - Had 4051 chips on the motherboard, not keyboard.

1200 XL - Had 4051 chips on the keyboard, not the motherboard.

994747[/snapback]

 

LOL! Well hell, my dad couldn't have picked a more difficult keyboard to adapt then. But really, it was the cheapest keyboard at the time, unlike today where you can get a lot of Atari 8-bits for for a bulk price.

[Cybernoid]

  LOL!  Well hell, my dad couldn't have picked a more difficult keyboard to adapt then.  But really, it was the cheapest keyboard at the time, unlike today where you can get a lot of Atari 8-bits for for a bulk price.

995207[/snapback]

 

Yup, I think the 1200xl keyboard has a different scan code / key mapping and has the demux/select 4051 chips on it... so it would have been a difficult mod. It is fantastic that you have a 400 with the 1200XL (or is it a 1400XL; or are they the same?) keyboard in it...cudos to your dad. It shouldn't be as difficult to put a XL or XE mobo into a 800...

 

I could see that you could even disable the extended memory config and connect the extra 2 joystick ports to the PIA if you put a multi-OS ROM into it too.

 

It would be a nice little project...

[doctorclu]

   LOL!   Well hell, my dad couldn't have picked a more difficult keyboard to adapt then.   But really, it was the cheapest keyboard at the time, unlike today where you can get a lot of Atari 8-bits for for a bulk price.

995207[/snapback]

 

Yup, I think the 1200xl keyboard has a different scan code / key mapping and has the demux/select 4051 chips on it... so it would have been a difficult mod. It is fantastic that you have a 400 with the 1200XL (or is it a 1400XL; or are they the same?) keyboard in it...cudos to your dad. It shouldn't be as difficult to put a XL or XE mobo into a 800...

 

I could see that you could even disable the extended memory config and connect the extra 2 joystick ports to the PIA if you put a multi-OS ROM into it too.

 

It would be a nice little project...

995216[/snapback]

 

Still think the ram board for the 800 that plugs into the 3rd and 4th joystick ports to give the 800 64K TRUE accessable memory (and the XL OS rom) like you once mentioned would be interesting for that matter.

[doctorclu]

After looking at the XL keyboard break down that was sent (above) I only wish the 800 schematics were as clear. I have the Atari corp tech manuals from 1982 over here, and I'm finding nothing quite as clear.

 

However, I did find the keyboard matrix for the 400/800 (combination of pins that create certain characters).

 

I find it interesting that on the Matrix the grid is pins 1 - 8 on the side with pins 9 through 17 on the bottom.

 

On the XL pinout 1-8 is the out, 9 is rsc (?) and 10-17 is in.

 

I take it 18 and 19 are ground, 24 is 5 volts, leaving 20-23 as the Start - Reset.

 

Am I reading this right?

 

Anyway, I am just about to the point I will take a 800 keyboard and plug it into a old XL board and test this out.

800XL9_gif.htm

[+warerat]

An XE Mobo in an old 800, this i would like to see...and in fully working order asd well

994484[/snapback]

Hate to see another 800 hacked up... At least it's still an Atari and not as crazy as this:

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/atari800/

 

If anyone is interested, I'm modifying a personality module to have the XL OS and the RAM under the ROM. I've got the 16K EPROM retrofitted with the XL OS, and it almost works all the way. I can play Star Raiders with an XL OS on my 800 .

 

My goal was to turn my 800 into at least a 64K 800XL with *minimum* hacking by just switching out the ROM module and adding a joystick dongle. There is 16K RAM under the ROM via a 62256 SRAM-- well 14K, the hardware chips can't be mapped out. I was going make an external connector in the back and run it to the joystick port to get PB0. I have my equations worked out and a GAL programmed to do this right now. Initially the switchable self-test and BASIC won't be available yet, but are indeed possible, just may need to jumper some signals between the slots externally. Damn it, why didn't Atari give me A13 & A14 on the OS board!?!

 

It's getting stuck somewhere in the initialization sequence and I have it on my logic analyzer trying to figure out why it's dying (nothing like pressing the trigger on joystick 4 to simulate RD5 for a cartridge insertion!). I think it's do-able.

 

Attached is a picture of the module--consider it a 16K Personality Board without the RAM yet. It works as an Omnimon board too now. As I'm not able to see a blue screen yet, I can't declare victory on the ROM side...

 

Edited January 7, 2006 by warerat

[doctorclu]

An XE Mobo in an old 800, this i would like to see...and in fully working order asd well

994484[/snapback]

Hate to see another 800 hacked up... At least it's still an Atari and not as crazy as this:

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/atari800/

 

If anyone is interested, I'm modifying a personality module to have the XL OS and the RAM under the ROM. I've got the 16K EPROM retrofitted with the XL OS, and it almost works all the way. I can play Star Raiders with an XL OS on my 800 .

 

995629[/snapback]

 

Oh this is awesome!! Sounds like you are a lot further along on this than most. But I fully support this project of yours. I remember asking if this could be done years ago, but it was a laughable idea back then. Who wanted to use the huge Atari 800? Well, I for one do.

 

I was fairly content till I won the retro challenge last year using nothing but a Atari 800 AND Atari 800 xl last July. And I could see the advantages of both.

 

Sooo.. that said, please keep working on that project.

 

 

Meanwhile, for those curious, I was working with the 400 keyboard being mostly similiar to the 800 keyboard. And got it working. Goes something like this (and the picture attached)...

 

xl 400

 

1 1 Out 1

2 2 Out 4

3 3 Out 6

4 4 Out 2

5 5 Out 7

6 6 Out 0

7 7 Out 3

8 8 Out 5

9 9 RSC

10 10 In 4

11 11 In 6

12 12 In 2

13 13 In 7

14 14 In 5

15 15 In 1

16 16 In 0

17 17 In 3

18 22 GRND ?

19

20 21 Start

21 20 Select

22 19 Option

23 18 Reset

24

 

Hmmmm... was playing with a 130 XE mobo I have over here, but no luck with it (it was fairly trashed out and has some bad sectors of ram.)

 

Got the 130 keyboard pinout somewhere?

[+warerat]

Well, I'm able to run the 800 with the XL OS now. It can boot up completely in cartridges or with BASIC. Had to do a slight mod to the NMI reset vector code as the 800 has a software reset via NMI. So the reset key works now.

 

Now all I have to do is wire up the SRAM, connect it to the joystick port, and boot up SpartaDOS 3.2.... And I'll have a true 64K 800!

 

The pinout I have for the 130XE keyboard is:

 

1 +5V

2 LED power

3 GND

4 IN 6

5 OUT 3

6 OUT 5

7 OUT 7

8 IN 2

9 IN 7

10 IN 5

11 IN 1

12 OUT 6

13 OUT 1

14 OUT 4

15 OUT 2

16 IN 3

17 IN 0

18 OUT 0

19 IN 4

20 RSC

21 START

22 SELECT

23 OPTION

24 RESET

Edited January 9, 2006 by warerat

[Cybernoid]

My goal was to turn my 800 into at least a 64K 800XL with *minimum* hacking by just switching out the ROM module and adding a joystick dongle.  There is 16K RAM under the ROM via a 62256 SRAM-- well 14K, the hardware chips can't be mapped out.  I was going make an external connector in the back and run it to the joystick port to get PB0.  I have my equations worked out and a GAL programmed to do this right now.  Initially the switchable self-test and BASIC won't be available yet, but are indeed possible, just may need to jumper some signals between the slots externally.  Damn it, why didn't Atari give me A13 & A14 on the OS board!?!

 

Doc, this is exactly the mod I was tell you about that would be possible... looks like warerat got it working!!!!

 

So, does your Personality Board have a dongle to connect to joysticks 3 and 4?

 

This is a very cool mod!!! Could this work to make a 130XE with extended memory with the joystick dongle?

[doctorclu]

Well, I'm able to run the 800 with the XL OS now.  It can boot up completely in cartridges or with BASIC.  Had to do a slight mod to the NMI reset vector code as the 800 has a software reset via NMI.  So the reset key works now. 

 

Now all I have to do is wire up the SRAM, connect it to the joystick port, and boot up SpartaDOS 3.2....  And I'll have a true 64K 800!

 

The pinout I have for the 130XE keyboard is:

 

1 +5V

2 LED power

3 GND

4 IN 6

5 OUT 3

6 OUT 5

7 OUT 7

8 IN 2

9 IN 7

10 IN 5

11 IN 1

12 OUT 6

13 OUT 1

14 OUT 4

15 OUT 2

16 IN 3

17 IN 0

18 OUT 0

19 IN 4

20 RSC

21 START

22 SELECT

23 OPTION

24 RESET

996536[/snapback]

 

 

Dang!!! Why on Earth did Atari wire the XE keyboard like that? That is just wacked!! (the XL and Axion keyboards at least kept the same pattern for the first 17 wires.)

 

Anyway, I'm with Cybernoid, I would like to see this personality board mod come together.

 

I'd honestly given up on this being a possibility, but would love to see it actually happen (A 800 with 64K + addressable memory like an XL/XE)

[+warerat]

    Dang!!!  Why on Earth did Atari wire the XE keyboard like that?  That is just wacked!!  (the XL and Axion keyboards at least kept the same pattern for the first 17 wires.)

 

    Anyway, I'm with Cybernoid, I would like to see this personality board mod come together. 

 

    I'd honestly given up on this being a possibility, but would love to see it actually happen (A 800 with 64K + addressable memory like an XL/XE)

996653[/snapback]

 

ALMOST there! The SRAM is wired and addressable. I have a joystick cable plugged into port 3 and have "up" (PB0) jumped to the personality board.

 

I can almost boot SpartaDOS 3.2! It now gets past the "Error: Not XL/XE computer" and begins to load in ultraspeed, but it glitches and displays garbage after a few sectors. I'll double check my wiring and go back to the logic analyzer if I can't see anything obvious..

 

I can put $FE in $D301 (disable OS) and the machine crashes, so that is a good sign. SysInfo shows it as an XL/XE computer w/ 64K RAM in DOS 2.5. This is surreal. I loaded the self test from disk into $5000 and it runs.

 

So the bottom line is: *YES*, an Atari 800 can be modified to work like an XL/XE and I am 90% there. In fact, if I was willing to get more motherboard signals to the OS board, I could even use an Atari CO60618 MMU. I just wanted it to be as self contained as possible and require minimum hacking so you could switch back and forth if you wanted to.

 

With an extended RAM board in the middle slot, I think it is very possible to make it look like a 130XE.