Did we see the best of the Jag

[ZylonBane]

Y'know, I have to wonder how many people around here think that the Jaguar has some kind of special "compression" chip.

[Atari_Owl]

I didn't get the point of your post other than stating some negativity towards Jaguar development. Well, thats very wrong and not update,

more and more developers find it reasonable to develope for the Jaguar, things are looking rather better than ever.

Well, and no 2600 coder or any serious coder is complaining about hard coding and bad performance, lame excuses for not being interested or capable or whatever in Jag dev. And the JAg community is surely not worse than other communities in www, there are some nice ppl here worthwhile.

 

 

You're right.

You didn't understand my post at all.

 

Although i see you still couldn't resist turning your post into an attack, concerning 'lame excuses' or capabilities. Now what was that about a 'nice community'

 

Oh and btw thank you Peterghiea

Edited April 3, 2006 by Atari_Owl

[Starcat]

Hi!

 

Just wanted to drop by and say, that Atariowl is actually completely right. And he didn't say anything bad about the Jag, he just stated how it is from his own experience. And you can be sure he knows what he's talking about.

 

I also wouldn't say jag dev wise things look better than ever. When compact flash is there, there is something really new and exciting. But that still takes a few months.

 

Regards, Lars.

[LanDi]

.

But due to the hardware bugs and complexity of the Jaguar we may never see what it can do. 4kb of graphics ram in the GPU, no buffer in the blitter and 8kb or Ram in the DSP which must include drivers (bear in mind hardware bugs stop you using main ram) so everything has to be done in swaps, very difficult and time consuming. The head of Ataris third party software developmetn stated that the very limit of the Jaguar provided the software was doing nothing else( ie calcualating game rythems or reading the joypad) was half a million polygons, probably using the blitter as much as possible(although being on a stepby value instead of stepstep it was practivcally useless for the job) Where would you store your textures without swaps? Maybe we could have a cartridge with extra ram so we could see the Z buffering of the Jag put to effect, then we could see what the Jag can really do.

 

So in a word, NO!!!

 

 

I didnt think i ws going to post for a while, but nonsense like this called me back.

Seriously LanDi, until you actually know something about how the Jag works, please don't post nonsense like this about it technically.

 

For the last time: Extra RAM is not necessary to use Z buffering, the Z buffering works anyway with the current RAM. The problems with it are:

a) extra memory reads/writes slow plotting down

b) can't use text shading and Z buffer at the same time

 

500,000 polys/sec! Bollocks! The Jag isn't even remotely capable of 500,000 arbitrary (even very small) polys a second (maybe tiny repeated 1phrase wide flat shaded squares. But not any kind of useful polygon). And i seriously doubt even any of the Atari management would have made a ridiculous claim like that.

 

"probably using the blitter as much as possible"?

Well of COURSE, what else would you use to draw the pixels with? Do you even have the slightest idea how slow it would be to write them to RAM with the GPU or DSP alone?

 

Oh and you can run some DSP or GPU code from main ram if you're careful about some things. But its slow, so why bother?

 

For the record. I dont think you're seriously attempting to develop anything Jaguar wise. I think these posts are to attempt to look knowledgable, instead they are merely foolish. And worse, may confuse anybody who may be honestly interested in starting development.

 

 

 

Well, well. I love a good roasting. You come here giving it all attitude, what can I say? First of all,the 500,000 polys issue.

It's impossible to define poly count, as there is no standard benchmark, and that has been an industry wide problem. And you obviously havent done your research because Atari head of 3rd party development did say that quote " If anyone says anything about it [the performance] they'd be lying, because it depends wahat you're doing with the software." And he went on to say that to quote that number (500,000) is ridiculous because the software must do other things. So there basically. I'm not going to get into an argument.

 

I don't know anything about Jaguar 3D, I'll hold my hands up right now. I don't know how it works. Which is why I asked where you would store your textures. Please read properly before replying.

 

Z buffering. The process is very memory intensive and the Jaguar does not have enough. No Jaguar title uses it, but it is a very nice feature to have available and unlike you, I probably know what it does.

 

Using main ram for DSP and GPU is possible is it? So basically, you know more than Atari themselves, the developers many of whom were immensely talented must pale in comparison to you. I must say you're exceptional.

 

" For the record " I have not made an official announcement about developing anything for the Jaguar, other than mentioning on the forum once that my first Jaguar project was going to be an adventure, which was really a slip up. I will not comment on anything, because thats the way things are. I could come out and say, "I'm developing this and its going to be great" but so many people have with the best of intentions done that, and nothing materialized so why contribute to the situation. I can be a dreamer and I freely admit that I am one, or I can be a doer. So if I did have anything, which I may or may not have when would I reveal it, a year before completion, oh that would make alot of sense wouldn't it? If I have something to show, do I show it? Thats a very big dilemma. Because there's so much happenning this year, why take attention away from where it is deserved? And incidentally I have previously stated and discussed that I am an amateur programmer , so there.

And finally, I wont point out your technical mistakes.

[JagChris]

500,000 polys/sec! Bollocks! The Jag isn't even remotely capable of 500,000 arbitrary (even very small) polys a second (maybe tiny repeated 1phrase wide flat shaded squares. But not any kind of useful polygon). And i seriously doubt even any of the Atari management would have made a ridiculous claim like that.

 

Oddly enough, they did make that claim in a mag interview. I think it was Bill Rehbcock who said it? It was an article that talked about the imminent release of the Jag CD player. I am not sure who said it but it was said by Atari management.

Edited April 3, 2006 by JagChris

[Starcat]

Hi!

 

Just thought this was too funny and ridiculous to read. You said yourself you don't know much about Jag 3d. Atariowl is probably the best 3d coder i have ever seen on the Jag, since teams like ATD or Eclipse. He definately doesn't have to hide, even though he prefers staying quiet most of the time. I can understand it very well though, posting all the time is simply wasted time. It's just frustrating, because nothing changes. People believe whatever they want to, no matter if it's true or not.

Just a friendly advice, get some insight and experience in jag dev before writing stuff like that.

Or commenting on somebodys skills.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Matthias]

Hello!

 

Oh and you can run some DSP or GPU code from main ram if you're careful about some things. But its slow, so why bother?

Using main ram for DSP and GPU is possible is it? So basically, you know more than Atari themselves, the developers many of whom were immensely talented must pale in comparison to you. I must say you're exceptional.

 

AtariOwl describes the "RISC/main-RAM"-issue quite well:

You can run RISC-code from main RAM (the 2MBs), but with at least one sad restriction:

You can't use the jump-commands (JUMP or JR), so you can't have any kind of conditions in your RISC-code

which makes it quite useless to put the RISC-code in the main-RAM (as you can't branch).

Atari has documented this in the bug-list, but also provided an example for running RISC-code

from RAM: Because it's unsure to use the 68000 to set a new objectlist-address in the OP,

they provided GPU-code to do this which can run from main-RAM.

 

 

Best regards

Matthias

[Atari_Owl]

500,000 polys/sec! Bollocks! The Jag isn't even remotely capable of 500,000 arbitrary (even very small) polys a second (maybe tiny repeated 1phrase wide flat shaded squares. But not any kind of useful polygon). And i seriously doubt even any of the Atari management would have made a ridiculous claim like that.

 

Oddly enough, they did make that claim in a mag interview. I think it was Bill Rehbcock who said it? It was an article that talked about the imminent release of the Jag CD player. I am not sure who said it but it was said by Atari management.

 

I'd almost say i'm surprised Rehbock would say something as ridiculous as that, but when i think about it i'm really not, bearing in mind Sam Tramiel claimed the Jag was more powerful than the Saturn and about as powerful as the Playstation. I think it can be attributed to typical Atari hyperbole.

 

Nevertheless, i'd be interested in seeing this interview.

[Matthias]

Hello,

 

back to the original question:

Did we see the best of the Jag?

 

Some have said that developers learn more about the machine over time, so technically spoken we will

see more amazing tricks implemented the longer we wait, but will we see a new game which will be

considered to be "better"?

 

Best regards

Matthias

[Atari_Owl]

Well, well. I love a good roasting. You come here giving it all attitude, what can I say? First of all,the 500,000 polys issue.

It's impossible to define poly count, as there is no standard benchmark, and that has been an industry wide problem. And you obviously havent done your research because Atari head of 3rd party development did say that quote " If anyone says anything about it [the performance] they'd be lying, because it depends wahat you're doing with the software." And he went on to say that to quote that number (500,000) is ridiculous because the software must do other things. So there basically. I'm not going to get into an argument.

 

I don't know anything about Jaguar 3D, I'll hold my hands up right now. I don't know how it works. Which is why I asked where you would store your textures. Please read properly before replying.

 

Z buffering. The process is very memory intensive and the Jaguar does not have enough. No Jaguar title uses it, but it is a very nice feature to have available and unlike you, I probably know what it does.

 

Using main ram for DSP and GPU is possible is it? So basically, you know more than Atari themselves, the developers many of whom were immensely talented must pale in comparison to you. I must say you're exceptional.

 

" For the record " I have not made an official announcement about developing anything for the Jaguar, other than mentioning on the forum once that my first Jaguar project was going to be an adventure, which was really a slip up. I will not comment on anything, because thats the way things are. I could come out and say, "I'm developing this and its going to be great" but so many people have with the best of intentions done that, and nothing materialized so why contribute to the situation. I can be a dreamer and I freely admit that I am one, or I can be a doer. So if I did have anything, which I may or may not have when would I reveal it, a year before completion, oh that would make alot of sense wouldn't it? If I have something to show, do I show it? Thats a very big dilemma. Because there's so much happenning this year, why take attention away from where it is deserved? And incidentally I have previously stated and discussed that I am an amateur programmer , so there.

And finally, I wont point out your technical mistakes.

 

I stand by absolutely everything i said.

 

I made it quite clear that 500,000 USEFUL/ARBITRARY (albeit small) polys per second is utterly beyond the jag's capabilities and i maintain this. Your comment also seems to be referring to this Atari manager declaring the number ridiculous, as indeed it is.

Its possible we could set up a code to draw tiny rectangles that might get close, but frankly that would be a waste of time. He and i seem to agree though that for an actual useable poly engine 500,000 is "ridiculous"

 

Z buffering you clearly do not understand at all. My statement is correct. And it HAS been used on other Jaguar games. Take a look at the source code available if you don't believe me.

 

Yes, GPU and DSP code can be run from main ram. I do it. But there are limitations. Though there is something that can be done about the JUMPs, though it remains severely limitting.

I do not believe i am the only person to have done this.

 

You mentioned your 'games in development' here before and i think on JI2, also you mentioned the website which was supposedly going to occur last summer sometime. I still believe this was hot air.

 

 

Regarding my 'technical mistakes', you have no clue. And i have nothing to prove on this matter. The people who have seen my demos know and those who have not, will have to wait on what i decide to do with my experiments. I will not be drawn yet on this subject.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Atari_Owl

[ZylonBane]

It's easy to tell which Jag games used the Z-buffer, because they manage pixel-perfect polygon intersection. Z-sort algos can't do that.

 

Cybermorph pretty obviously uses it. Not sure about Battlemorph. Highlander seems like a likely candidate, due to the nature of its engine.

[Isgoed]

Hey ZylonBane, friend , what's this??

 

First you say it's easy to tell which Jaggames use the Z-buffer, so I think..."hey that's cool, now we're getting somewhere "

 

Then you say that Cybermorph "pretty obviously uses it" , that you are "not sure" about Battlemorph, and Highlander "seems like a likeley candidate"?

 

So what's there so easy to tell, come on man!! spill the beans, I wanna know!!

[Gunstar]

Bottom line. We´re not going to see anything that stretches the Jaguar more than what Battlesphere did. The potential for further improvement may be there, but nobody´s going to go there.

 

Talking like that is going to piss FROG(Gorf) off! LOL!

 

For any other console, you would be right, Palmer, but that's what's special about the Jaguar. The "homebrew" teams aren't just fan's that learned to program games for the Jaguar like most hombrews on other classic systems, they are in fact professional programmers who do other programming for their day jobs, and Battlewphere was not a "fluke" in Jaguar land. Most of what has been released so far has been betas or "lost" titles that were done and released after the Jag's demise like Sonbird's games, and then you see the small games like Jagmind, and Gorf and Painter which leads you to believe that this is as good as it gets with new Jag games, excpept for the "fluke" Battlesphere. But these games are just games being released to keep Jag fans happy while the BIG system-pushing games that would take a few years under normal corporate conditions with a development team working fuul time, but in fact are being done part-time, by professionals working full-time at other jobs, so development time is stretched two to three times longer. Gorf 3D will get released eventually, or other BIG games by 3D Stooges Software, that will be the quality of Battlesphere. And that's not the only one coming. We also have Eerievale, though not a game that will "push" the system, it will be a professional quality "big" game. And there are more...it's not impposible that the maker's of Battlesphere aren't working ont he next big thing in secret right now, they do things like that. Battlesphere Gold was a total secret until released as was the Scatbox network hardware. And they still hang around the community too, they aren't gone, they jsut aren't allowed (in one case) or don't care to come to AA. of course there are also the smaller "hombrew" games being developed and small homebrew/underground development teams like you are refering too, too.

The Jaguar is the most unique system of all in it's fan base and "homebrew" or "underground" development. No other fanbase is like it, except maybe the Dreamcast. The potential for improvement IS there, and people ARE going there.

 

I´m with you part of the way and I have the most utmost respect for developers like Scatologic and 3D Stooges.

The release of GORF (albeit for now quite shortlived) actually renewed my hope and enthusiasm for things to come.

My point is, that even professional programmers doing things out of love for a system or a community can´t afford the philantropic approach for longer periods of time. Their time, full or part, could be a lot more beneficial to them financially if spent on the PC scene or one of the next gen systems.

As I said, they´re intelligent, dedicated and professional coders and designers, and I´m sure the lure of making the game they want for a platform from where they could in fact get both money and exposure is present in their minds.

 

I believe Scatologic, or perhaps Thunderbird and Oppressor by themselves ARE working on something right now, but my guess would be PC-related and not Jaguar.

 

Chances are much better that they are working on BOTH, not one or the other; these are die-hard Jaguar fans that are active in the community (not on AA). I would stake almost anything, short of my life, that we have not seen the last major game from ScatoLogic. I also have strong suspicions that you have not seen what you will see if you go to the link below; I'm not just guessing about what I've said, I've done the research, I know. I'm refering to the little movie of Gorf 3D, in active development still, what's shown at the link is older footage, it has progressed considerably bewyond this now, I've seen pictures. But you have to become a member of JI2 (which anyone can do) to see the newer stuff. It's at the top of what's shown on this page:

 

http://siniscope.com/shittyjag/index2.html

Edited April 3, 2006 by Gunstar

[ZylonBane]

Then you say that Cybermorph "pretty obviously uses it" , that you are "not sure" about Battlemorph, and Highlander "seems like a likeley candidate"?

It's easy to tell which games use it. It's not easy to tell which games don't use it. Simple!

 

Actually, I'm not sure about BattleMorph because I haven't played it for months.

[Gunstar]

Y'know, I have to wonder how many people around here think that the Jaguar has some kind of special "compression" chip.

The Jaguar itself may not have some type of compression chip, but every single Jaguar game cartridge has chips that are FULL of compressed information, the last official compression program from Atari, that is used on later games, was a 14:1 ratio. I believe Starcat developments developed their own called lose-less compression, which is apparently better, but I don't know the compression ration on that, but luckily we have the man who wrote it with us on AA, so maybe he can enlighten us.

[The_Laird]

Regarding my 'technical mistakes', you have no clue. And i have nothing to prove on this matter. The people who have seen my demos know and those who have not, will have to wait on what i decide to do with my experiments. I will not be drawn yet on this subject.

 

I have to confess that I am one of the lucky few to see one of AtariOwl's Jag "demos" and I can quite honestly say its by far one of the most impressive things I have ever seen on the Jag and smacks the face of anyone who says the Jag cannot do 3D.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Regarding my 'technical mistakes', you have no clue. And i have nothing to prove on this matter. The people who have seen my demos know and those who have not, will have to wait on what i decide to do with my experiments. I will not be drawn yet on this subject.

 

I have to confess that I am one of the lucky few to see one of AtariOwl's Jag "demos" and I can quite honestly say its by far one of the most impressive things I have ever seen on the Jag and smacks the face of anyone who says the Jag cannot do 3D.

 

Are there any chances of the rest of us being able to see these amazing demos? This is the first I've ever even heard of such a thing and if the Jag really can do some of this "impressive stuff" don't hold back!

[DamageX]

Are there any chances of the rest of us being able to see these amazing demos? This is the first I've ever even heard of such a thing and if the Jag really can do some of this "impressive stuff" don't hold back!

I also would like to see some demos. Are any emulators up to the task these days?

 

As for the big question, I doubt that the best of the Jag has been seen. Certainly not by me, as I've never played one.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Are there any chances of the rest of us being able to see these amazing demos? This is the first I've ever even heard of such a thing and if the Jag really can do some of this "impressive stuff" don't hold back!

I also would like to see some demos. Are any emulators up to the task these days?

 

As for the big question, I doubt that the best of the Jag has been seen. Certainly not by me, as I've never played one.

 

I've not tinkered around with Jag emulators that much. Besides that I've heard that most of them don't emulate the Jag very well. There is a demo disc of some 3D demos out there, but it's slightly rare. So far the best we've seen graphically for the Jag would be IS2. That's one that pushes the limits IMHO.

[walter_J64bit]

@ Atari_Owl

 

I would like to see your Jag 3D demos where can I download them? Thanks!

[JagChris]

Y'know, I have to wonder how many people around here think that the Jaguar has some kind of special "compression" chip.

 

Zylonbane, what are your credentials?

Edited April 4, 2006 by JagChris

[walter_J64bit]

Y'know, I have to wonder how many people around here think that the Jaguar has some kind of special "compression" chip.

 

Zylonbane, what are your credentials?

I haven't seen any games for Jag from him.

[GT Turbo]

I don't want to participate to this 'friendly war', but one thing, Atari say 500,000 polys/sec, but that's not a good number, better number of polys / vbl, so this number gives :

 

500 000 / 50 = 10 000

500 000 / 60 = 8333,....

 

Polys / vbl...

 

And somebody as say a good thing, anybody give real benchmark, because any idea of size, number of egdes, ....

 

So all this numbers don't really mean something....

 

 

GT Turbo (Jagware)

[Atari_Owl]

I haven't yet fully decided what i'm doing with it, which is at least partly dependent on what the future of the jag 'community' looks like.

(Perhaps though, Zylonbane , my 'Poll Spamming' of a few months ago, might have had another purpose)

 

When i do decide i will talk about it here on AtariAge, but i put no timeline on it.

 

My intention is that there will be no downloadable demos as i have no wish for them to be viewed as completely Public Domain to be exploited by unscrupulous people.

None of the demos work on the currently available emulators and i hope this continues.

 

In the meantime, i have a particularly pernicious and de-motivating bug to trace which causes my code to freeze, seemingly at random, at some variable point in the first 8hours

 

 

GT, i'm not sure that simply dividing by the 50/60Hz is particularly any more meaningful. I do agree though that the poly count is dependent on so many factors that for the most part its not a very useful measure.

 

 

 

And thank you for the kind words, Starcat and Mr Kizza.

Edited April 4, 2006 by Atari_Owl

[walter_J64bit]

My intention is that there will be no downloadable demos as i have no wish for them to be viewed as completely Public Domain to be exploited by unscrupulous people.

 

Ok, can we get screen shots?