Proline Reconsidered...

[Paranoid]

So, I ordered two of the 7800 cables from Best Electronics and because the total needed to be a minimum of $20, I added a bunch of other items, including a Proline PCB.

 

After replacing the old PCB with the new one and testing it out, I'm considering retracting my negative impression of the 7800 proline controller. The second fire button is still clearly in a bad place, but with the new board the stick is very servicable. Ms. Pac Man is my defacto game for testing out sticks on any console that supports the game, including MAME. You just know right away if the stick works well with this game, it should work well with just about anything else you can throw at it.

 

The proline actually works better than my RSI stick with Ms. Pac Man... although, I had to train myself not to just slap the stick in the direction I wanted to go, but instead hold it and steer Ms. Pac Man around the maze... But I got far fewer false inputs and wrong directions.

 

It is still far more painful than the 5200 to repair, and is awkwardly thin and difficult to find a comfortable play position with... but, it isn't as HORRIBLE as I thought it was... and it really does play better than the Radica stick on Ms. Pac Man, for me, anyhow... which kind of illustrates my long-running arguments, that console games are designed around the stock controllers that are built for that particular console. The Radica stick is no doubt a *better* stick... with positive feedback and a very clean feel. But the way 7800 Ms. Pac Man is intended to be played, the Proline seems to have an advantage there, to me.

 

Of course, I suppose I could still argue that while the 5200 sticks I've recieved have just needed to be cleaned in order to operate, all the the 7800 Proline sticks needed actual replacement parts in order to breath new life into them. Either way you're cracking the sticks open... the difference is, there is a good chance a 5200 stick can be repaired for free... while if your 7800 stick isn't working, you can count on investing in replacement parts.

 

Anyhow... for $2.50 a PCB... I now have two working Proline sticks as well as the Radica stick... so I'm pretty happy.

[shadow460]

It depends on what's wrong with the Pro Lines. Mine were simply way too loose to use. I shimmed up the foam part inside one to tighten it up. All I needed was a custom cut piece of cardboard for that.

 

I think the RSI stick would lean more toward games like Asteroids and Galaga, where you have to shoot constantly. With Ms Pac Man, all you gotta do is move the stick itself.

[Paranoid]

It depends on what's wrong with the Pro Lines. Mine were simply way too loose to use. I shimmed up the foam part inside one to tighten it up. All I needed was a custom cut piece of cardboard for that.

 

I think the RSI stick would lean more toward games like Asteroids and Galaga, where you have to shoot constantly. With Ms Pac Man, all you gotta do is move the stick itself.

 

Yeah, I agree that there are a couple of things inside that could go wrong that would be fairly easy to repair. Well... that thing... anyhow. I also think that the foam getting worn out can cause problems with directionals where what you REALLY need is a new PCB. You just can't get enough leverage on the contact dot to make a solid connection. It *is* a screwy design having the PCB inverted and the directionals reversed... it totally changes the way you put leverage on the directionals. My guess is that they did it trying to INCREASE the MTBF on the contact domes by making it harder to put excessive force on them.

 

And, I agree. The RSI stick rocks for most games, actually... because of the feedback and arcade like crispness of the buttons and the stick. On Pac Man and Pac Man varients, you would think that would apply... but the Radica stick is just a little too touchy, so the kind of slow, clumsy response of the 7800 stick turns out to be an advantage.

 

Either way, I've just gotten two of my best scores ever on 7800 Ms. Pac Man, playing twice... so, I gotta give the Proline a thumbs up, at least for Ms. Pac Man.

[shadow460]

Yeah, it's not a bad stick. It works well for Mean 18 and stuff like that--extremely well for Water Ski.

 

My best Galaga scores, though, are with arcade style controls ('cuz they were scored in the arcade...)

[Lord Helmet]

The only game I have found that works well with the proline is Ms. Pac-Man (and the great hacks based on it). All other games have sucked with it. Any game that uses a fire button makes the proline worthless after 5 min of repeated firing IMHO.

[TuzenTCA]

I think it is a weird design all together. It is long and narrow, and wants to roll in my hands. Mine were never "broke" perse, but I didn't like them anyhow.

 

--James

[Lord Helmet]

I think it is a weird design all together. It is long and narrow, and wants to roll in my hands. Mine were never "broke" perse, but I didn't like them anyhow.

 

--James

 

It feels like it's going to "roll' to me as well. I think the stick is just a little to tall.

[phaxda]

I'm actually rather fond of the 7800 stick. I grew up using 5200 sticks, and think that they have perhaps trained me to handle the ergonomics. I really don't have any trouble with them at all--since I bought my Cuttle Cart 2, I've been using the 7800 stick for everything. And loving it.

Edited May 17, 2006 by phaxda

[jbanes]

It depends on what's wrong with the Pro Lines. Mine were simply way too loose to use. I shimmed up the foam part inside one to tighten it up. All I needed was a custom cut piece of cardboard for that.

 

Now there's an idea! I actually used pieces of scotch tape to firmly hold the joystick over the domes. It works surprisingly well, but it still doesn't give a proper "click" when you push on the stick. (Though at least it gives some sort of "click"!) I'm afraid that the only way to get that back is to get a new stick or PCB.

 

I think the RSI stick would lean more toward games like Asteroids and Galaga, where you have to shoot constantly. With Ms Pac Man, all you gotta do is move the stick itself.

 

Agreed. The problem with the stick is that you put a lot of torque on it, but its slim design does very little to resist movement. Even if you get a good grip (which will eventually tire your hands), pressing the button will usually throw your grip off. As a result, I've developed a few different holds for different types of games. Probably my favorite is to hold the stick sideways so that your thumb can press directly down on one of the buttons and your trigger finger can press the other button. You can then control the stick with your other hand by using forward/back and up/down motions instead of the usual forward/back, left/right motions.

 

That being said, the best solution is a CX78. Not the best controller ever, but a lot better than the Proline.

[shadow460]

The only game I have found that works well with the proline is Ms. Pac-Man (and the great hacks based on it). All other games have sucked with it. Any game that uses a fire button makes the proline worthless after 5 min of repeated firing IMHO.

 

Yeah, repeated firing shows the Pro Line's bad side. The only game I play like that with a Pro Line is Tank Command, and its firing rate is slow enough that you really won't notice a problem.

If the Pro Line goes to rolling, you;re putting too much force on the controller. A lighter touch does wonders in any game. (Well, except Pole Position II in the first half of Suzuka, when you really want to pull the stick out of its base while navigating those corners.)

 

Once again, shimming up the stick's internals helps. You don't have to force the stick to make contact inside. I don't get a click, either, but my Pro Line works well. I've just got to fix the other one.

[Paranoid]

The design is weird, and it does want to roll and shimmy in your hand...

 

I also agree that having learned how to use a 5200 stick properly helps with the 7800 Proline. The *basic* ergonomics are the same. The Proline reminds me of a budget welfare-model 5200 stick. Anyhow, that is a great observation.

 

Mine doesn't "click" either, even after replacing the PCB. Even though the domes are the same as the 2400 stick, it doesn't have that same feeling as the domes depress. I think again, the difference is that you are pushing UP on them instead of DOWN on them with the Proline.

 

The CX78 looks too much like a Nintendo pad for me. I can't imagine that I would feel favorably about it. I just don't like gamepads. It isn't that I can't do them, I just prefer a joystick.

 

One thing that occured to me. If you do not like the throw of the 7800 stick, you need to actually pull the "Mushroom knob" off the metal shaft to get the PCB off and back on to a Proline. While you had it off, you could take a dremel tool and cut the shaft down say, a quarter of an inch or so, and achieve a much shorter throw. It would certainly change the dynamics of the stick.

 

"The 7800 short-throw sports Proline".

 

[jbanes]

I also agree that having learned how to use a 5200 stick properly helps with the 7800 Proline. The *basic* ergonomics are the same. The Proline reminds me of a budget welfare-model 5200 stick.

 

As JB and I were just discussing, both sticks come from the work on the 2700 and Sylvia controllers. I think Atari had it about right with those two, but for some reason they felt the need to screw it up. In the 5200's case, the reasoning was fairly simple: The analog stick messed with the design. But in the case of the Proline, they were obviously trying to do a more stylish 2600-style stick. So they extended the shaft WAY too long. If they'd stuck with the stubby-knob type of stick on the 2700/Sylvia sticks, I think they would have done much better. Being smaller, you could have moved them with your fingers rather than forcing you to use a solid, torque-inducing grasp.

 

One thing that occured to me. If you do not like the throw of the 7800 stick, you need to actually pull the "Mushroom knob" off the metal shaft to get the PCB off and back on to a Proline. While you had it off, you could take a dremel tool and cut the shaft down say, a quarter of an inch or so, and achieve a much shorter throw. It would certainly change the dynamics of the stick.

 

I've never seen one in real-life, but isn't that what the Sears Telegames 7800 Super Deluxe Joystick did? At least from the pictures, it looks like they made the stick a lot heavier while simultaneously shortening the shaft. It's hard to be sure from just a screenshot, but it does look like it would be a far more comfortable controller than the regular Prolines.

[Prodos8]

One thing that occured to me. If you do not like the throw of the 7800 stick, you need to actually pull the "Mushroom knob" off the metal shaft to get the PCB off and back on to a Proline. While you had it off, you could take a dremel tool and cut the shaft down say, a quarter of an inch or so, and achieve a much shorter throw. It would certainly change the dynamics of the stick.

 

"The 7800 short-throw sports Proline".

 

 

That would be kinda cool, but woudn't do much for the fire button problems.

 

How hard is get those knobs off anyway? I tried once a while back, to give the stick a good cleaning, and couldn't get the knob to budge. I considered using a ball-joint seperator but figured It'd be overkill.

[jferio]

That would be kinda cool, but woudn't do much for the fire button problems.

 

How hard is get those knobs off anyway? I tried once a while back, to give the stick a good cleaning, and couldn't get the knob to budge. I considered using a ball-joint seperator but figured It'd be overkill.

 

The first time of removing the knob is always the toughest... but it can be done by hand. I had to do it when I used a ProLine as a donor for my ProLine SI Edition (Radica stick).

[Paranoid]

That would be kinda cool, but woudn't do much for the fire button problems.

 

How hard is get those knobs off anyway? I tried once a while back, to give the stick a good cleaning, and couldn't get the knob to budge. I considered using a ball-joint seperator but figured It'd be overkill.

 

The first time of removing the knob is always the toughest... but it can be done by hand. I had to do it when I used a ProLine as a donor for my ProLine SI Edition (Radica stick).

 

I use a pair of pliers... grab the metal ball at the bottom of the proline with the pliers (get a GOOD solid grasp, but not of the plastic)... and twist left and right *and* pull on the knob... It takes some effort. It'll make a *pop* and come off. Getting it back on is the reverse.

 

On the 5200 stick... I don't think analog was a mistake... and I don't even think non-centering was a mistake (although having a switch like the Kraft sticks to go between centering and non-centering would have been the BEST idea)... and I don't think the membrane/flex pad was a mistake either. I think the problem was that the flex pad was emerging technology and that carbon-dot flex pads are *still* finicky. How many people here have had Cel phones that had a number or two stop working... or knew someone that had this happen? There are a bunch of Nokia phones that are really prone to this... and their keypads are basically 5200 flex-pad/carbon dot technology.

 

I think if the sticks had been *reliable* that attitudes about them would be totally different. They still might not be the most favored stick ever to come with a console, but they would certainly wouldn't share a spot with the Colecovision and Intellivision controllers as the most despised controllers ever.

[Paranoid]

I've never seen one in real-life, but isn't that what the Sears Telegames 7800 Super Deluxe Joystick did? At least from the pictures, it looks like they made the stick a lot heavier while simultaneously shortening the shaft. It's hard to be sure from just a screenshot, but it does look like it would be a far more comfortable controller than the regular Prolines.

 

I can't tell if the Mushroom Cap is HUGE or if the body of the controller is much smaller, but something definetly looks weird compared to a stock Proline. I've never seen this stick, either.

[Vic George 2K3]

A shorter knob shaft would be my suggestion for an improvement.

[DracIsBack]

Not my favorite stick, but I've found that I've learned to live with it. I certainly don't experience "pain" with it as some do. Years of playing, I guess.

 

In some cases, I find you need it compared to the pad. Some games that are more sensitive (Scapyard Dog, anyway) need a proline, IMO. I've never been able to make certain jumps in Scrapyard Dog with the joypad.

[Paranoid]

Not my favorite stick, but I've found that I've learned to live with it. I certainly don't experience "pain" with it as some do. Years of playing, I guess.

 

In some cases, I find you need it compared to the pad. Some games that are more sensitive (Scapyard Dog, anyway) need a proline, IMO. I've never been able to make certain jumps in Scrapyard Dog with the joypad.

 

 

See... I think that would be my total thesis about gamepads. They don't give you real precision control. Super Mario Brothers and Sonic would both be good examples of games that were designed for Gamepads and probably play BEST with game pads, but in order to do so, the game physics were designed with the assumption that a gamepad would be used. I'll go with Sonic as an example. When you need to get RIGHT to the edge, where Sonic is balancing percariously on one leg... you get "near enough" and make these little taps left or right until he starts balancing. Really, Halo or other FPSs on the XBox are pretty much the same. It is just about IMPOSSIBLE to shoot with any accuracy using the d-pad, and the thumbsticks are only slightly better. It is actually pretty sloppy with the GTA series too... which is why you can auto-aim and scroll through targets from left to right or right to left.

 

Which is my point about games (good ones) being designed AROUND the controllers on their native console. It doesn't matter if it is a 2600, a 5200, or an XBox 360. I personally don't like D Pads and would almost always prefer a joystick... and a real joystick... not some knobby little directional control... BUT... for some games, I think a joystick would just be frustrating... and so, I'm not going to try and play a D-pad oriented game with a joystick.

 

The only system I can think of where the games were not clearly able to leverage the controllers was the Intellivision.

[jferio]

Which is my point about games (good ones) being designed AROUND the controllers on their native console. It doesn't matter if it is a 2600, a 5200, or an XBox 360. I personally don't like D Pads and would almost always prefer a joystick... and a real joystick... not some knobby little directional control... BUT... for some games, I think a joystick would just be frustrating... and so, I'm not going to try and play a D-pad oriented game with a joystick.

 

This is especially true when I consider the games I have on the Playstation. The emulated games, such as Namco Museum and Arcade's Greatest Hits, work best when you haul out one of the few sticks for the system, because many of the games were designed around one. When I pull out a fighting game, even native to the console, I do the same thing because my thumbs can't move fast enough... except for Bushido Blade, which was designed around the native Playstation controller. The same goes for Gauntlet, HydroThunder, etc...

 

Yes, it is annoying since I'm a stick man, but what can you do?

 

Although I've had good luck with the sticks for the SNES and Genesis. And am in the market for sticks for the old NES.

[shadow460]

Another case in point for using a joystick is The Raiden Project. On games like that, you just don't get the right "swing" on the craft with a D-pad.

It seems like most vertical shooters need that swing. Without it, I'm dead in seconds instead of hours. Raiden just never did play well with the my Dual Shock 2.

When I used the Raiden Fighters with MAME, I had to go out and buy a suitable joystick. Once again it didn't work with my gamepad.

All of my aiming in FPS games is done by track ball or analog joystick.

As for platformers, I'd prefer a stick, but I can go either way. Miner 2049er actually worked very well with my gamepad. Of course, there was the "press F to fly" cheat when things got tough.