Why isn't there a "5200" classic collection?

[JB]

3. It's fugly. Even though there's not much inside, it's bigger than an XBOX. And the joysticks ... ugh, the goggles, they do nothing.

That's personal opinion. I think it's one of the best-looking game machines of all time.

 

It IS pretty large, though.

Makes a Genesis1+SegaCD2 look small, and that's not easy to do.

[Paranoid]

It sold out last Christmas. Software is what would have made Atari lots of $$$ last year, but their games sucked. It costs way less to produce a dvd disk and ship it than it does a console. Real money is almost always in the software.

 

It is the ONLY item that sold out or was in short supply last Christmas. There wasn't another "super-hot" item on anyone's list that was impossible to get. That is *significant*.

 

And... if it cost way less to produce and ship a DVD disk than it does to make hardware, Atari wouldn't be in such trouble. Making a modern game is an incredibly expensive proposition. You end up with a cast and crew that rivals a production movie... and similar costs. Publishing the actual media is a TRIVIAL cost, for sure... but you have to sell boat-loads of that before you even break even. And Atari hasn't had the titles to do that... not many publishers have. Jakks is having no trouble being profitable delivering more tangible (and lower quality, overall) products that are part of the gaming industry and HARDWARE based. The concept that you sell hardware at a loss and make profit on the software is an archiac legacy of the console platform market that is currently probably in the middle of another shake-out (at the very least, it is going to experience a shake-UP in the near future). This is the kind of IN-THE-BOX corporate sacred cow thinking that got Atari IN trouble in the first place. I don't think the Flashback 2 could have been a mega blockbuster that became the flagship of the Atari line and saved them from disaster. These PnP games will never be that. But they certainly could have been a very significant part of Atari's profits during that quarter, and if they weren't, it was short-sighted Atari management that is responsible.

 

Back to the 5200 .... here are the reasons I see:

 

1. It's kind of a "middle sister" system that doesn't have the original appeal of the 2600 nor the (relatively) advanced technology of the 7800.

 

2. The library is small to start with, and the number of exclusives is smaller still. Cool games like Vanguard, Pac-Man, and Berzerk aren't owned by Atari. It's essentially stuck for the same reason the Colecovision is: both were nice systems, but largely because of the 3rd party software and licenses on the consoles.

 

3. It's fugly. Even though there's not much inside, it's bigger than an XBOX. And the joysticks ... ugh, the goggles, they do nothing.

 

I disagree that the 5200 does not have the advanced technology of the 7800. The 5200 is in many ways far more advanced than the 7800. The 7800, after all, is just a hopped up 2600. The 7800 is lacking the built in Pokey sound, and while it certainly has superior GRAPHICS capabilities, I don't see that this results in BETTER games, or even remarkably better graphics. Ms. Pac Man, Donkey Kong, Joust, Frogger, Q*Bert, Robotron. The 5200 does a very respectable job of duplicating the look of the originals while giving intense, compelling game play with high quality audio reproduction. The 7800 gives you nearly PERFECT replication of the arcade graphic experience, coupled with less exciting gameplay and often distractingly awful audio.

 

Your point #2 applies to the 7800 equally as much as to the 5200. Additionally, some of the BEST titles for the 5200 (Countermeasure, Star Raiders, the Real Sports line) -are- Atari exclusive titles. Isn't Space Dungeon an atari exclusive? I'm sure you could come up with 20 or so titles. Not to mention, that the goal with a 5200 FB3 seemed to be more of an 8-Bit capable machine that could also play titles from the 8-bit computer line. This REALLY opens the doors up . Finally, it was supposed to accept removable media, the concept seemed to be basically a CC2 type of device with a built in console. All of this REALLY makes point #2 moot. Atari could sell the item, bundle in some of their exclusive titles, and if you used it to download ROM images and play OTHER titles... they couldn't really stop you from doing that, now could they?

 

3: Subjective personal opinion. I think the 5200 is one of the most attractive consoles ever made. The JOYSTICKS are excellent for games that are designed to leverage them. The FB3 would have used digital sticks, by all accounts, though. The 5200 actually was widely recognized during it's day as being sophisticated in asthetic design, as were the joysticks. The size and the joysticks have always caused sharp division in opinion, granted. Those who don't get the joysticks, generally can't overcome their dislike for them. Personally, the COLECOVISION joynubs are better than ANY d-pad I've ever had the misfortune of having to play with. Of course, most consoles with d-pads have designed their games to leverage the strengths of that control scheme. It is worth noting that d-pads lend themselves to pretty simple direction/button/direction type control schemes, which has been popularized through fighting games and extreme sports games. That is what d-pads do WELL... right... triangle, down down, circle, left, up square...

 

"Wow... I just did a triple backflip lutz spine-crusher!"

 

"Really? That same sequence is a backflip fakie side to air ollie boneless tailgrind McBoringlyRedundant on Tony Hawk 200!"

 

Ok... that was a LITTLE too harsh. D-pads do left/right/up/down platform jumpers well. They also do Left/Right/Up/Down - then go to a menu and scroll through it- FRP games well, too (if you can stomach big-haired Anime elves with ears 10 feet long)... and with the addition of (gasp, 5200 style) analog thumbsticks, they do OK with driving games, as well.

 

But really, the trick with modern consoles is most of them have invented their OWN hits and pretty much moved away from trying to recreate a ton of arcade hits as a sale point. From the PS-1 forward, it really became an issue of the games at home being able to rival anything in the arcade graphically, anyhow. In either case... the d-pad is good for a limited selection of games and is a horrible interface for almost any classic/retro game that was designed for a stick.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Paranoid

[JB]

Your point #2 applies to the 7800 equally as much as to the 5200. Additionally, some of the BEST titles for the 5200 (Countermeasure, Star Raiders, the Real Sports line) -are- Atari exclusive titles. Isn't Space Dungeon an atari exclusive?

Space Dungeon is Taito's game.

It IS an Atari-exclusive, but only because Taito hasn't made any use of it since the original arcade game.

[Paranoid]

That is too bad. Space Dungeon is so obscure, I wasn't sure who owned the arcade rights. Heh.

[jboypacman]

Am really surprised that Space Dungeon wasnt on the Tatio Legends collection.And from what i seen it dosent look like it will be on the second one either.

[Laner]

It sold out last Christmas. Software is what would have made Atari lots of $$$ last year, but their games sucked. It costs way less to produce a dvd disk and ship it than it does a console. Real money is almost always in the software.

 

It is the ONLY item that sold out or was in short supply last Christmas. There wasn't another "super-hot" item on anyone's list that was impossible to get. That is *significant*.

Not really... the Xbox 360 was in very short supply before Christmas (I sold mine on ebay for $1000+), and it had a much greater mindshare than the FB2 to boot.

[jpfalcon2003]

I think the Flashback 3 would be a huge success with a little advertising. The FB2 did very wel. Wasn't Bounty Bob Strikes back a 5200 exclusive?

[Angelus]

 

 

For emulation, use Kat5200...

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1101376

 

It is the BEST 5200 emulator out there. First off, it is SPECIFICALLY 5200, not an 8-bit general emulator... second, it has a great GUI and is easy to use.

 

I'll back you on this.

I tried other emulators and while they "worked" I still had lots of trouble getting particular games that used multiple buttons in their games to work properly. Games like Defender and Moon Patrol just didnt play right. No matter how many times I would map their in game buttons to my PC pad-I still could not jump in Moon Patrol,or use hyper space in Defender.

 

Once I grabbed the Kat 5200-everything fell into place. Defender and Moon Patrol played perfectly. So yeah I also give this emulator a thumbs up myself.

Go for it.

[Video]

I think the big reason there are no 5200 compilations is the fact that most the games done on the 5200, are also done on other systems, and in many cases, even the 2600 versions are as good or better.

 

As for the 5200 stick being hard to emulate, I don't know why, every modrn console has an analog stic on them now, and they work more or less exactly the same as the 5200 sticks. Though I think the modern controller handles the calculations of where the stick is, and the 5200 console itself did that bit of work instead.

 

Is there an emulator for the 5200 that will read an analog stick? That would be cool to use a gamepad to play 5200 games.

[JB]

I think the big reason there are no 5200 compilations is the fact that most the games done on the 5200, are also done on other systems, and in many cases, even the 2600 versions are as good or better.

There's also a good number of 5200 exclusives, or titles that were just done better on the 5200 than 2600.

Star Raiders is a prime example, as is Battlezone. Though the latter's seen arcade ports, which makes it less compelling.

 

Yes, it's also on the 8Bit computers, but they haven't seen any collections either, so it's a moot point.

 

 

I think the main problem is most of the games that really show the diffrences were licensed titles, like Qix and Ballblazer.

That and 5200 doesn't mean anything to most people. They'll just go "WTF? Atari only had one button! FAKE GAMES!"

 

As for the 5200 stick being hard to emulate, I don't know why, every modrn console has an analog stic on them now, and they work more or less exactly the same as the 5200 sticks. Though I think the modern controller handles the calculations of where the stick is, and the 5200 console itself did that bit of work instead.

Same end result of 0-255 per axis, though.

But yah, modern consoles put brains in the pad, and send the data serially.

They do that with the buttons also, which avoids any matrixing issues like the 5200 would have if you were mashing multiple keypad buttons.

 

 

Is there an emulator for the 5200 that will read an analog stick? That would be cool to use a gamepad to play 5200 games.

Should be. Given the PC started with analog joysticks, it only makes sense to read those.

 

 

The big issue is that most emus are 8-bit computer emulators with a half-assed "5200 mode" that fails to properly emulate the 5200 controller. So the analog gets "downsampled" to ^v<>, and they screw the keypad up into the bargin.

 

The 5200-exclusive emus should behave properly in this regard, though.

Can't call out specifics, since I gave up on 5200 emulation ages ago.

[Paranoid]

A few points...

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sell Atari800Win Plus short. It is a very well rounded and powerful emulator. It certainly has a place, even if you are solely interested in 5200 emulation. The rub with emulation is, even if Kat 5200 is the "best" 5200 emulator, there will still be an odd title here and there that runs better on something else...

 

If you're SERIOUS about emulation. Get the Speedlink USB Competition Pro stick. This stick makes 5200 and 8 bit emulation (and 2600 Stella emulation as well, and probably C=64 and Amiga and anything else that used an Atari style stick)... ROCK. There will still be some limitations, even with this stick, but this will overcome 9 out of 10 of the most significant problems with most of these emulators. Really. It makes *that* big of a difference. I've been wanting to get a Stelladaptor to test it out and compare, but they've been out of stock for awhile now, so I can only recommend the Competition Pro.

 

The 5200 library has many unique titles, and most of them are superior to any other ATARI title/console other than the 8 Bit PCs (where you get a thing where sometimes it is a dead heat, sometimes the 8 bit has a better translation, sometimes the 5200 does...). There are a couple of 7800 titles that actually have better GAMEPLAY and graphics than the 5200 versions... but in many cases, the 5200 version is soundly superior to the 7800 title of the same name in as far as game PLAY is concerned.

 

Playing a 5200 or any other classic emulator with a d-pad is an effort in futility in my opinion, and the root of the reason why so many people have a negative impression of emulation. The games were simply not designed for the dynamics of modern d-pads. You need a *stick*. I've got a Thurstmaster and Logitech USB analog/digital d-pad. They're both PS-1/2 style deals. They stuck for classic emulation. They'll work... but, you know... the KEYBOARD will "work".

 

The Competition Pro is the way to go.

[JB]

If you're SERIOUS about emulation. Get the Speedlink USB Competition Pro stick. This stick makes 5200 and 8 bit emulation (and 2600 Stella emulation as well, and probably C=64 and Amiga and anything else that used an Atari style stick)... ROCK. There will still be some limitations, even with this stick, but this will overcome 9 out of 10 of the most significant problems with most of these emulators. Really. It makes *that* big of a difference. I've been wanting to get a Stelladaptor to test it out and compare, but they've been out of stock for awhile now, so I can only recommend the Competition Pro.

No piece of hardware can compensate for software shortcomings.

 

Playing a 5200 or any other classic emulator with a d-pad is an effort in futility in my opinion, and the root of the reason why so many people have a negative impression of emulation.

I thought it had more to do with highly-recommended emulators that only emulate 1-button digital sticks, and then having the second fire button, keypad, and start/pause/reset strip kludged in rather messily, resulting in them being mapped to hardcoded keyboard buttons, SHARED across all 4 controllers, and possibly not even emulated properly on top of it.

 

There are very good reasons why no version of Atari800 is installed on my computer, and they have very little to do with my available input devices(which include a pair of 4-button, 3-axis joysticks from the days of DOS).

 

The games were simply not designed for the dynamics of modern d-pads. You need a *stick*.

A stick won't do jack squat for an emulator that makes no attempt to properly emulate the hardware in question.

That's like saying TextNES becomes a better NES emulator if you run it through TV out instead of on a VGA monitor.

 

The fundamental issues go much deeper than the user selection of IO devices.

[Trebor]

No piece of hardware can compensate for software shortcomings...A stick won't do jack squat for an emulator that makes no attempt to properly emulate the hardware in question...The fundamental issues go much deeper than the user selection of IO devices.

 

Agreed. How about an emulator that has "Simulate Analog", Analog "Sensitivity", & "Deadzone" settings for the controller you are utilizing - would that cover what is needed?

 

 

-Trebor

[Flojomojo]

Playing a 5200 or any other classic emulator with a d-pad is an effort in futility in my opinion, and the root of the reason why so many people have a negative impression of emulation. The games were simply not designed for the dynamics of modern d-pads. You need a *stick*. I've got a Thurstmaster and Logitech USB analog/digital d-pad. They're both PS-1/2 style deals. They stuck for classic emulation. They'll work... but, you know... the KEYBOARD will "work".

Crazy talk. The Atari 2600 joystick is fundamentally a D-PAD with a big rubber rocker switch. The games play exactly the same with a decent digital pad, so it just comes down to personal preference. The 5200's native joysticks were analog, but most of the games used digital controls. Choice in the software is what it's about.

 

No piece of hardware can compensate for software shortcomings...A stick won't do jack squat for an emulator that makes no attempt to properly emulate the hardware in question...The fundamental issues go much deeper than the user selection of IO devices.

 

Agreed. How about an emulator that has "Simulate Analog", Analog "Sensitivity", & "Deadzone" settings for the controller you are utilizing - would that cover what is needed?

 

Mmmm, sanity. And it looks easy to configure. I might need to check this out. BTW, what is the best 5200 emulator for XBOX? The last one I tried was the usual 8-bit clusterfuck that has trouble loading different media (or perhaps the trouble is me?)

[jbanes]

There IS a guy who sells a CX-52 to USB conversion. He'll basically convert any stick you send him to USB. I used to have the link, and it seems it was a lot more reasonable than $60.

I'll never understand why controllers are sacrificed to such butchery. It's not that difficult to build an adapter that your controller plugs into rather than slicing and dicing the original unit. The only real advantage (which I'll grant is a fairly large one) is that a converted controller has a professional look that makes it appear like it's intended for a modern machine. In comparison, an adapter is a clunky thing you plug your ancient controller into.

 

Still...

 

As for the 5200 stick being hard to emulate, I don't know why, every modrn console has an analog stic on them now, and they work more or less exactly the same as the 5200 sticks. Though I think the modern controller handles the calculations of where the stick is, and the 5200 console itself did that bit of work instead.

I think that's the problem. If the 5200 reads the stick like a 2600 paddle, then there's a lot of bookkeeping that 5200 games needed to do. Providing a facility that appears to the software to be caps charging is a little trickier than an easy to read parallel or serial port.

 

 

Should be. Given the PC started with analog joysticks, it only makes sense to read those.

Just to point out, today's Digital Joysticks are still "analog" in the sense that they provide a range of motion rather than a "on or off" message. The big difference is that modern joysticks perform digital sampling using technology similar to computer mice. (I wonder if digital stick movement is measured in mickeys?) Even the N64 used the same photovoltaic technology, meaning that its analog stick isn't really analog at all.

 

If you'll excuse me, there's another incorrect Wikipedia article that needs updating.

[Paranoid]

Amazing the strongly stated opinion masquerading as FACT around this post.

 

I'm also getting the impression that it is uninformed opinion, worse yet.

 

Have either of you, JB or Flojomojo, actually tried emulation specifically *with* the Speedlink Competition Pro?

 

Yeah. I didn't think so.

 

I've been using emulation quite a bit. In particular, Atari800Win PLus 4.0, but also KAT 5200 (when you download Kat 5200, read the ReamME text file, and you'll see that Trebor and I are both acknowledged for play testing this emulator by the author. As a fact, a lot of the evolution of the i/o configuration panel has been influenced by input, requests and complaints by Trebor and I).

 

Regarding the idea that the 2600 joystick is fundamentally a D-Pad with a big rubber rocker switch...

 

Sure... and a Ford Focus is fundamentally the same thing as a Porsche 911. A $20 half/half by a street hooker is fundamentally the same thing as a night on the town with a $5000/evening callgirl.

 

I mean, I understand the basis of your argument, but, there are countless examples of the opinion that a d-pad is *not* a suitable replacement for a real stick. It goes beyond a "preference" or a matter of opinion. While there are certainly some individuals who have adjusted to and even prefer direction d-pads on their retro consoles, they are clearly in the minority.

 

Again, I wouldn't call this fact, or even theory, but I think it goes beyond opinion. We'll call it a hypothesis. That is, consoles and input methods in large part determine the type of game that a console supports, and how it is interfaced with... i.e., how the game is played. While something like Donkey Kong or Pac Man generally plays best with a 4 or 8 way digital stick, something like Super Mario Bros. plays best with an 8 way d-pad, while Grand Theft Auto San Andreas or Tony Hawk Underground 400 plays best with a modern rumble-pad style pad with d-pads and analog hats and multiple buttons and switches.

 

Furthermore, the *majority* of complaints that people have about emulators are directed to what could be labeled I/O issues. Sound and graphics issues are a significant complaint too, and there are others. But the *big* thing that turns people away, that makes them find emulation "unsuitable"... is control. If D-Pads were "just like" Atari sticks, then there wouldn't be such a huge market for directional joysticks and joystick interfaces (like the iPac) designed implicitly for retro emulation. Obviously, a LOT of people disagree with you on this one, Flo.

 

I've proposed this before. But I think in a blind study, all OTHER things being equal (there being no easy way for you to detect the differences, like sound, color, or one being on a TV and the other a monitor), the vast majority of people would not be able to tell a real 2600 from Stella, a real 5200 from Kat 5200 or Atari 800 Win Plus, provided that the user input (read: the joystick) was the same on either platform.

 

Also, please note, in the paragraph above I say, "the vast majority of people". Which is uniquely different than "The Vast Majority of Atari-Age posters". I think... I *think* this claim would extrapolate to the Atariage community as well, but clearly you would find higher standards and tougher scrutiny among the more hardcore retro-gamers that compose a site like this than of people in general who are interested in emulation or retrogames.

 

I'm sticking with my original statement. If you've had difficulty with emulation, you should pick up a Competition Pro and revisit it. I find Atari800Win PLus with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware. I find Kat 5200 with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware. And I find Stella with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware.

 

It also works very well with a range on MAME titles, although clearly, for the FULL Mame experience, something like the X-Arcade dual or solo is called for.

 

But once again... yeah... it makes THAT much of a difference.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Paranoid

[Paranoid]

I'll never understand why controllers are sacrificed to such butchery. It's not that difficult to build an adapter that your controller plugs into rather than slicing and dicing the original unit. The only real advantage (which I'll grant is a fairly large one) is that a converted controller has a professional look that makes it appear like it's intended for a modern machine. In comparison, an adapter is a clunky thing you plug your ancient controller into.

 

Still...

 

No, I agree with this. The idea of butchering a decent retro stick to make it USB seems like a bad way to go. I think the Stelladaptor or the Competition Pro is a much better choice that will reasonably re-create the feel of a 5200 stick for the majority of titles. Actually, it could be argued it recreates the feel or something more like a 5200 with a Redemption Adaptor, PMP 5200 RSI stick, Wico, or other digital stick alternative.

[eegt97]

Crazy talk. The Atari 2600 joystick is fundamentally a D-PAD with a big rubber rocker switch. The games play exactly the same with a decent digital pad, so it just comes down to personal preference. The 5200's native joysticks were analog, but most of the games used digital controls. Choice in the software is what it's about.

I tend to agree that it is a matter of personal choice. Being used to the D-PAD after so many years, the games that were designed to work well under digital input work fine for me using a D-PAD, although I understand why some would prefer the actual stick. The PMP 5200 RSI stick is outstanding for using with these games on the real console.

As for the 5200 stick being hard to emulate, I don't know why, every modrn console has an analog stic on them now, and they work more or less exactly the same as the 5200 sticks. Though I think the modern controller handles the calculations of where the stick is, and the 5200 console itself did that bit of work instead.

I think that's the problem. If the 5200 reads the stick like a 2600 paddle, then there's a lot of bookkeeping that 5200 games needed to do. Providing a facility that appears to the software to be caps charging is a little trickier than an easy to read parallel or serial port.

There is some truth to this, but it is actually pretty easy considering all you have to do in emulation is count scanlines to get the correct pot value. Since most all games I know of only check the pots during VBLANK, this actually becomes a moot point.

 

As JB has alluded to, the 8-bit emulators treat your analog stick as a digital device, using a 50% deadzone to cut off most of the analog range. Also, there is a problem with older PC joysticks in that they had jitter near center value, meaning that with some devices you need to program some deadzone to get rid of this jitter making it just a little more difficult to emulate. That's why there is a deadzone setting in kat5200 (Paranoid's testing helped out with this).

 

Also, the 5200 pot values had possible values from 1-228. However, each individual stick had a different range, meaning that there could be a different experience from stick to stick! The programmers generally took this into consideration, and there was kind of a hardware specification for min-max value. However, emulation must also look at this and it's not necessarily easy.

I'm sticking with my original statement. If you've had difficulty with emulation, you should pick up a Competition Pro and revisit it. I find Atari800Win PLus with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware. I find Kat 5200 with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware. And I find Stella with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware.

I certainly have come to trust your judgement about these things Paranoid and I for one am planning on getting one of these sticks. I could have sworn at one time that the RetroUsb guy had a 5200 stick to PC usb converter, but didn't see it on his site today. I was thinking I would get one and give it a whirl with both the 5200 stick and the PMP stick. Oh well...

 

One very important thing that should be pointed out about the 5200 sticks with regards to PC emulation is that they were not self-centering. Some games took advantage of this. Try playing Super Breakout or Missle Command with a PC analog stick under emulation and it becomes pretty apparent. I guess one good thing about these games is that they were also designed to use the 5200 trackball, and at least under kat5200, you can use the PC mouse, which improves gameplay considerably. Also, the Simulate Analog parameter can improve gameplay with these games using the D-PAD or the keyboard (but not an analog joystick, at least not until the nex release).

 

-Brian

[JB]

Should be. Given the PC started with analog joysticks, it only makes sense to read those.

Just to point out, today's Digital Joysticks are still "analog" in the sense that they provide a range of motion rather than a "on or off" message. The big difference is that modern joysticks perform digital sampling using technology similar to computer mice. (I wonder if digital stick movement is measured in mickeys?) Even the N64 used the same photovoltaic technology, meaning that its analog stick isn't really analog at all.

I was thinking more that gamepads seem to have taken over most of the PC controller market.

 

I consider mice and trackballs to be analog, because they provide variable speed.

I'm of the opinion that the overall effect matters more than the actual mechanism used to acheive it.

 

Amazing the strongly stated opinion masquerading as FACT around this post.

 

I'm also getting the impression that it is uninformed opinion, worse yet.

 

Have either of you, JB or Flojomojo, actually tried emulation specifically *with* the Speedlink Competition Pro?

 

Yeah. I didn't think so.

Are you telling me that the controller in question does NOT appear as a standard gaming device, and is thus useless for all applications except those which feature explicit support code for it?

 

That makes it worthless to me, and makes me even MORE annoyed that emulators can support a proprietary controller properly but not standard ones.

 

 

Fortunately, I believe you just ASSUME I'm an incompetent that doesn't know how to use a config panel or read a help file.

As I stated, my problems went well beyond physical input devices.

 

 

*actually looks controller up*

Digital stick with fire buttons on opposite sides of the controller?

I can see why you never noticed an issue with A800. Your stick ALREADY prevents you from playing properly with analog or dual-button games.

 

http://hometown.aol.com/redonos/Gravis1_s.gif is far better suited to the 5200, being that it's analog and has FOUR readily-accessable buttons. Start, pause, fire 1, and fire 2 all in easy reach(trigger and left thumb button are both button 1, so even though it looks like 5 buttons, it isn't).

It's a good stick, and holding up well with age(I got mine free with a copy of TIE Fighter back in the day).

 

I've been using emulation quite a bit. In particular, Atari800Win PLus 4.0, but also KAT 5200 (when you download Kat 5200, read the ReamME text file, and you'll see that Trebor and I are both acknowledged for play testing this emulator by the author. As a fact, a lot of the evolution of the i/o configuration panel has been influenced by input, requests and complaints by Trebor and I).

Kat5200 didn't exist the last time I bothered.

 

Atari800Win Plus STILL has the controller issues I describe in the current version.

 

 

... the vast majority of people would not be able to tell ... a real 5200 from ... Atari 800 Win Plus, provided that the user input (read: the joystick) was the same on either platform.

And they weren't playing a game that used analog, the second fire button, or the keypad, none of which can be mapped and are permanently hardcoded as specific keyboard buttons.

Or even worse, playing a game that expected you to NOT mash a button on all 4 controllers at once.

 

And I still see no indicator that reset is actually 5200 reset instead of a hard reset, making it impossible to reach the configuration menu in Qix(and probably affecting a few other games too).

 

I reiterate: Atari800 sucks as a 5200 emulator due to terminal input issues.

Anything claiming to support the 5200 needs to properly emulate the controller. That means ANALOG control and buttons that AREN'T crosswired across all 4 controllers.

 

The ONLY version of A800 to be actually USEFUL for 5200 gameplay is the Dreamcast port. It has the reset issue, but seems to have fixed most of the rest. Though controller limitations prevent real-time keypad use, which would make Star Raiders a comedy of errors.

 

 

Also, please note, in the paragraph above I say, "the vast majority of people". Which is uniquely different than "The Vast Majority of Atari-Age posters". I think... I *think* this claim would extrapolate to the Atariage community as well, but clearly you would find higher standards and tougher scrutiny among the more hardcore retro-gamers that compose a site like this than of people in general who are interested in emulation or retrogames.

I think the vast majority of people will notice when they can't play Missile Command or Star Wars. They're not exactly off-the-wall titles, and will probably be among the first games tested. And they REQUIRE analog control.

 

I'm sticking with my original statement. If you've had difficulty with emulation, you should pick up a Competition Pro and revisit it. I find Atari800Win PLus with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware. I find Kat 5200 with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware. And I find Stella with the Competition Pro to be highly competitive with the real hardware.

 

It also works very well with a range on MAME titles, although clearly, for the FULL Mame experience, something like the X-Arcade dual or solo is called for.

 

But once again... yeah... it makes THAT much of a difference.

It does not recode Atari800, and thus A800 remains worthless. The fact that your controller duplicates A800's issues doesn't make A800 any better.

 

I'm sure other programs have arisen in the last year or 2 that ARE viable emulators(like Kat5200, which seems to properly emulate the controller), but I ceased caring a long time ago.

On the RARE occasion I have an urge to bother with 5200 emulation anymore, I just fire up an obsolete version of MESS. I don't care enough anymore.

[Flojomojo]

Amazing the strongly stated opinion masquerading as FACT around this post.

 

I'm also getting the impression that it is uninformed opinion, worse yet.

 

Have either of you, JB or Flojomojo, actually tried emulation specifically *with* the Speedlink Competition Pro?

 

Yeah. I didn't think so.

<snip>

 

Paranoid, I've seen the pictures of the joystick in question. I have used the original vintage stick after which it is modeled. I have a modern Commodore 64 plug-n-play unit which uses the same case and layout. I don't care for it, personally. I prefer to use my thumbs to control my games, and I always have -- the Atari joysticks and Intellivision pads lent themselves to this style of play, as do modern joypads.

 

I do hope you re-read your post in which you accuse JB and I of stating opinion as fact, then write 25 lines in which you do the exact same thing. It's rather hypocritical, really. You like your joystick, I understand. Guess what? I like my input method. You don't have any facts to back up your assertions of what the "minority" of anyone really thinks, just your own opinion.

 

If you would like to attempt to settle the matter of which control method is superior, I challenge you to an online duel of the emulated 2-player game of your choice. We can meet on XBOX Live or Kaillera anytime that's mutually convenient.

[Paranoid]

Again, I wouldn't call this fact, or even theory, but I think it goes beyond opinion. We'll call it a hypothesis.

 

That is my line, Flojo, in reference to my OWN comments...

 

So, I think I'm being pretty honest about calling my OPINION just that. I don't see anything hypocritical about this, when I'm pointing this out in my own post. The fact that you missed this seems to indicate you're not really reading my entire posts, though...

 

JB... I think we're having a disconnect here. The Competition Pro certainly isn't suitable to any of the games that require analog (and I'm not sure how any of the emulators handle Star Raiders. It just doesn't seem like a title that lends itself to emulation readily). But neither is the PMP stick, or the Redemption... or the WICO... or any of the other digital solutions. These sticks make a whole SLEW of other games far more enjoyable though... *and*, with the Competition Pro and emulation, the same titles that benefit on the REAL hardware (from a digital stick) benefit in emulation, to the point that one is basically indistiguishible from the other, for practical purposes, in *real* application.

 

*period*. I don't really think that *is* opinion.

 

Many 5200 titles benefit tremendously from a digital stick.

A digital stick in emulation has the same net benefit as a digital stick on the real hardware. Or *almost* the same.

 

But, in fact, a digital stick in emulation has certain advantages (the first being that you're not sending digitial signals to TRICK an analog logic chip into thinking it has an analog controller hooked up to it). Every 5200 out there, by the nature of their analog contol, has a slightly different range going on with the I/O ports.

 

Which means your sticks act different from console to console. Doesn't matter if they're a stock 5200 stick, or a PMP stick. You're going to get different results depending on where the tolerances are on your console.

 

With Kat5200 and the Competition Pro... this is a problem you'll *never* encounter. And let me tell you, it is a significant advantage.

 

And they weren't playing a game that used analog, the second fire button, or the keypad, none of which can be mapped and are permanently hardcoded as specific keyboard buttons.

 

Yeah... I'll buy this. I agree completely with the above quote. Fortunately, the games that DO use analog, the seconf fire button, or make extensive use of the keypad, are FEW and far between. (And as Eegt pointed out, there are alternatives available for Analog input, anyhow, although personally, I do NOT like using the mouse as a paddle or other analog input device.)

 

Honestly, I mostly use Atari800win PLus in Atari 8 bit mode, where the Competition Pro is an EXCELENT stick, because, well, it replicates the type of stick you would have an an Atari 8 bit pretty damn faithfully.

 

But I've been using the Competition Pro with Kat 5200 for 5200 emulation, and I can say without reserve that it is equal to and in some ways superior to the PMP 5200 RSI stick on the real hardware, with the caveat that games must be single button games that benefit from a digital stick (although I think with Kat and the Comp. Pro you could easily enough map buttons to the other buttons on the stick, I've just been too lazy to try this, because, well, there aren't enough games where this is an issue to get me off my ass to do this).

 

 

As far as the "vast majority of people"... I disagree about Star Wars or Missile Command being that critical. There are a few titles that are problematic... some are problematic on the REAL hardware with the REAL stock controllers (Super Cobra is basically unplayable on a real 5200 with the stock controllers. But put a PMP stick on and the game has new life, and is actually pretty fun). Do people give up on the real deal because with original joysticks some games are no fun? Why then, would the majority of people be upset when a couple of titles won't work right in emulation? I just don't see the rationale behind that assumption. Sorry.

 

And I'm not assuming anything about your intellect or ability to configure an emulator, JB. I know you're a bright guy and technically literate. I think you've simply closed your mind to giving emulation a chance, and I can even understand why. But I think you're taking a wrong-headed approach to this...

 

If *anything* should clue you in that you're on the wrong side in this argument, it is that your position has you allied with a poster who is defending d-pad thumbsticks...

 

[JB]

JB... I think we're having a disconnect here. The Competition Pro certainly isn't suitable to any of the games that require analog (and I'm not sure how any of the emulators handle Star Raiders. It just doesn't seem like a title that lends itself to emulation readily).

If I were gonna rig an emulater for Star Raiders, what I'd do is map the P1 numpad to the keyboard numpad. That's ALMOST perfect, though the double-length zero key throws things off just a hair.

 

Admittedly, it leaves you juggling 2 controllers, but that's standard for PC gaming.

 

 

But neither is the PMP stick, or the Redemption... or the WICO... or any of the other digital solutions. These sticks make a whole SLEW of other games far more enjoyable though... *and*, with the Competition Pro and emulation, the same titles that benefit on the REAL hardware (from a digital stick) benefit in emulation, to the point that one is basically indistiguishible from the other, for practical purposes, in *real* application.

But with the real system, you have the option of connecting an analog controller for playing analog games.

With most of the emulators I've dealt with, you don't.

 

 

 

My original point was I had gripes with the underlying structure of the emulators, and not anything that would be fixed by a new input device.

 

But, in fact, a digital stick in emulation has certain advantages (the first being that you're not sending digitial signals to TRICK an analog logic chip into thinking it has an analog controller hooked up to it).

If you're using USB, it's digital from initial encoding to final processing, so it doesn't matter.

With gameports... I've always used real analog sticks, so no digital trickery.

 

Every 5200 out there, by the nature of their analog contol, has a slightly different range going on with the I/O ports.

 

Which means your sticks act different from console to console. Doesn't matter if they're a stock 5200 stick, or a PMP stick. You're going to get different results depending on where the tolerances are on your console.

Yup. I think that's part of why later systems do the processing in the controller.

May just be that they really like serial encoding, though...

 

With Kat5200 and the Competition Pro... this is a problem you'll *never* encounter. And let me tell you, it is a significant advantage.

Should apply to an emulator with an analog controller too, since they simulate an "ideal" system with a specific calibration.

...

Unless said emu is being stupid.

I had a DOS emu at one point that exhibited oddball issues when using a joystick. Worked great as long as you didn't hit the edges of the stick range, but once you did, you'd get divide by zero errors(just like a Masterplay, as I understand things).

 

 

And they weren't playing a game that used analog, the second fire button, or the keypad, none of which can be mapped and are permanently hardcoded as specific keyboard buttons.

 

Yeah... I'll buy this. I agree completely with the above quote. Fortunately, the games that DO use analog, the seconf fire button, or make extensive use of the keypad, are FEW and far between. (And as Eegt pointed out, there are alternatives available for Analog input, anyhow, although personally, I do NOT like using the mouse as a paddle or other analog input device.)

I'll use the mouse for paddles and spinners, because it usually makes a degree of sense(that and I'm a trackball guy, so it's a tad closer to native). But sticks...

 

There were a few wierd issues that kept bugging me on the keypads, though I don't really remember what they were anymore beyond "can't play Qix"(Qix trips on at least 2 issues, and it's a favored game of mine as well as one of the few I can't play with standard 5200 sticks).

All I really remember for sure is that I kept running into off-the-wall problems at every turn, and I tried every 5200 emu I could find in an attempt to fix them.

 

 

As far as the "vast majority of people"... I disagree about Star Wars or Missile Command being that critical.

My logic was that Missile Command is a prominent title, and Star Wars is gonna get hit just because it's Star Wars.

Admittedly if people had sense, they'd just go get MAME and the arcade versions, but since when does sense come into play for the vast majority?

 

There are a few titles that are problematic... some are problematic on the REAL hardware with the REAL stock controllers (Super Cobra is basically unplayable on a real 5200 with the stock controllers. But put a PMP stick on and the game has new life, and is actually pretty fun). Do people give up on the real deal because with original joysticks some games are no fun? Why then, would the majority of people be upset when a couple of titles won't work right in emulation? I just don't see the rationale behind that assumption. Sorry.

I hate Super Cobra. Game seems to have no deadzone whatsoever programmed into it, and assumes a non-existent ideal system and controller. A shining example of 5200 support at it's worst.

 

 

Like I said, on emulation I just KEPT running into issues. Maybe I was tending towards the wrong games, but I seemed to hit more fatal issues than I did playable games.

 

 

And I'm not assuming anything about your intellect or ability to configure an emulator, JB. I know you're a bright guy and technically literate. I think you've simply closed your mind to giving emulation a chance, and I can even understand why. But I think you're taking a wrong-headed approach to this...

I was getting unreasonably snippy there. Sorry about that.

I still maintain that A800 is an atrocious 5200 emu, though.

 

And I've only closed my mind to 5200 emulation. I'm an unabashed emu whore in other respects.

 

I admit it's made massive strides recently and seems to have adressed my gripes, now that we have actual 5200 emulators instead of 8-bit computer emulators looking to add a bullet point to their specs.

I just can't bring myself to care anymore. While I applaud efforts such as Kat5200, I no longer have any real interest in 5200 emulation aside from the occasional urge to listen to Ballblazer's music.

 

 

 

If *anything* should clue you in that you're on the wrong side in this argument, it is that your position has you allied with a poster who is defending d-pad thumbsticks...

Heh.

I'm not touching the "2600 stick is a d-pad" line with a 50-foot pole.

[Flojomojo]

If *anything* should clue you in that you're on the wrong side in this argument, it is that your position has you allied with a poster who is defending d-pad thumbsticks...

Heh.

I'm not touching the "2600 stick is a d-pad" line with a 50-foot pole.

Ya know, posting on a web board is not a holy war. I didn't realize I was "allied" with anyone, just flinging poo with the other nerds ...

 

Take apart the 2600 stick, look at the 5 pressure-sensitive buttons, and tell me it's different qualitatively from a digital control pad and I'd like to know what you're smoking.

 

Except for Paranoid, who lives up to his name.

[Video]

If *anything* should clue you in that you're on the wrong side in this argument, it is that your position has you allied with a poster who is defending d-pad thumbsticks...

Heh.

I'm not touching the "2600 stick is a d-pad" line with a 50-foot pole.

Ya know, posting on a web board is not a holy war. I didn't realize I was "allied" with anyone, just flinging poo with the other nerds ...

 

Take apart the 2600 stick, look at the 5 pressure-sensitive buttons, and tell me it's different qualitatively from a digital control pad and I'd like to know what you're smoking.

 

Except for Paranoid, who lives up to his name.

 

Actually, with that line of thought, any stick (with the exception of analog, which work different) can be precieved as a D pad, as they all work the same way, four buttons, left, right up and down, that you push to go in that direction.

 

However, it's called a joystic, not because of the internal workings, but because of the long floppy thing sticking out the top (that's gay as hell sounding )

 

Yes, you could take an atari controller apart, and physically push the buttons on the board, and it would work, you could do that with an NES pad too (though the carbons not attached, so you might not be as accurate) It will work, but when it comes down to it, every digital controller pretty much works the same way, buttons, on, or off.

 

I suppose you could build a different stick and put in the case of an atari controller to make it a big D pad, but you probably woulnd't want to (those dome switches are hard to push without leverage) And you could take a NES controller appart and put a stick in instead of the dpad. It wouldn't change the internal workings, but they still are, what they are without moding.

[JB]

If *anything* should clue you in that you're on the wrong side in this argument, it is that your position has you allied with a poster who is defending d-pad thumbsticks...

Heh.

I'm not touching the "2600 stick is a d-pad" line with a 50-foot pole.

Ya know, posting on a web board is not a holy war. I didn't realize I was "allied" with anyone, just flinging poo with the other nerds ...

 

Take apart the 2600 stick, look at the 5 pressure-sensitive buttons, and tell me it's different qualitatively from a digital control pad and I'd like to know what you're smoking.

 

Except for Paranoid, who lives up to his name.

Calling the VCS stick pressure-sensitive is misleading, since it implies an analog property.

 

And while it isjust 4 switches electrically, mechanically it's lightyears away from a gamepad, just like the arrow keys on a keyboard are almost totally dis-similar from a gamepad.

 

 

It's HIGHLY diffrent qualitatively.

Unless you'd like to argue that all gamepads, joysticks, and keyboards feel exactly the same because they're all just sets of digital switches.