z26 vs stella

[Shannon]

The question was posed by the almight x-port of whether he should switch to stella as the source for emulation of the 2600 as opposed to using Z26. So I thought I\\\'d ask here to get everyones thoughts....

 

My first thought is yes. Z26 has not been touched in 2 years and stella (best I can tell) has pretty much surpassed Z26. Input? Thoughts?

 

Oh and if someone could list some ideal games to use as a testbed, please let me know. That way if he does it and then releases it I can try out some ROMS that are known to be trouble makers.

 

In case you didn\'t figure it out this is for the xbox.

 

He just recentally released a 7800 emulator based on MESS which is quite nice!

 

Thanks!

Edited August 29, 2006 by Shannon

[+stephena]

The question was posed by the almight x-port of whether he should switch to stella as the source for emulation of the 2600 as opposed to using Z26. So I thought I\\\'d ask here to get everyones thoughts....

 

My first thought is yes. Z26 has not been touched in 2 years and stella (best I can tell) has pretty much surpassed Z26. Input? Thoughts?

I'm obviously a little biased, so I won't comment on which has surpassed the other. One thing is true; Stella seems to be (slightly) more supported as of late. And the TIA fixes coming in the next version should fix most of the problems people are having right now.

 

As for porting to the X-Box, I think the new Stella architecture would make that quite easy. It has it's own built-in GUI, which was made specifically for such standalone systems (PSP, GP2X, WinCE, etc). The code is in relatively clean C++, which compiles under all newer versions of gcc, as well as Visual Studio 7. It's also 64-bit clean and endian clean, so it shouldn't matter which CPU you have. A new port usually means just a few new classes for the platform-specific stuff, and since the X-Box is based on Windows, it *should* be a very simple conversion.

 

I can offer advice on whatever is required. Unless the X-Box is *really* strange, I don't see a major problem with creating a Stella port.

[Shannon]

Thanks for the reply. In the suggestions thread over on xbox-scene I mentioned two stella features. The hmov line thingy, and the flicker reducer to reduce the natural 2600 flicker (I forget what it's called in the options). Two features that as far as I know Z26 does not have.

 

That's when he asked what peoples thoughts were in regards to Stalla vs Z26. So I was hoping to name some of the things stella does over Z26 or that Z26 may still do that stella doesn't. But I'm not super familar with the both. I always used older versions. GP2X stella is probably the most "current" I've tried and I'm pretty impressed with it. I also mentioned the "fry option" and stella adapter support. I don't remember those functions being available in Z26. My memory may be fuzzy, but in the past wasn't Z26's biggest selling point speed? I figured if Stella can run perfect on a GP2X then the xbox can handle it just fine.

 

I did look over the Z26 documentations and did not see anything that Stella does not already do. I'll post your current response over at the xbox-scene forums. FYI X-port kinda using his own GUI and basicallly "connects" his to the emulator's core functions. Hence no need for the interface half.

 

Well seems he was mostly concerned over past issues that Stella had with playing Pitfall 2. Apparently at one point Z26 played it better? So unless there is some other compelling issue (a game that stella can play that Z26 cannot) then he will probably stick with Z26.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Shannon

[Thomas Jentzsch]

IMO z26 still has the (slightly) more correct emulation, but Stella has the better user interface. Anyway, since I am used to z26, I am probably biased too.

 

BTW: The HMOVE remove feature is IMO just a gimmick (real emulation shouldn't "optimize" the original) and z26 has the anti-flicker option (AFAIK both emulators are still only very basicly emulating the phosphoric effects).

[accousticguitar]

I couldn't get stella to work. I downloaded all the extra stuff that was required (which took forever on dial-up), and it was all for naught. Z26 on the other hand, downloaded fast, and worked without much trouble at all. Needless to say, I won't mess with stella anymore.

[Shannon]

ok well thanks for the input guys. I have not kept up enough with the recent development of both emu\'s to know which features each on had over the other. As well as any emulation issues that may exist with the many games that are out there, especially the homebrews which may tend to push the hardware a little harder since we know alot more about the 2600 these days.

[+stephena]

I couldn't get stella to work. I downloaded all the extra stuff that was required (which took forever on dial-up), and it was all for naught.

What extra stuff? You just download one file for Windows, either a zipfile or a self-installable EXE. That's all you download, so I can't see how to make it much easier than that. The file is approx. 2 MB, and while that's larger than a z26 download, it also includes a built-in GUI and debugger (which is where the extra size comes from).

Needless to say, I won't mess with stella anymore.

Well, with that attitude, we can never fix any problems you're having.

[+stephena]

ok well thanks for the input guys. I have not kept up enough with the recent development of both emu\'s to know which features each on had over the other. As well as any emulation issues that may exist with the many games that are out there, especially the homebrews which may tend to push the hardware a little harder since we know alot more about the 2600 these days.

One feature that I really like in Stella is OpenGL support. Since you'd be using it on an X-Box and a TV, you can sync to vblank at 60Hz (TV refresh rate), and get extremely smooth scrolling with no tearing. And the cheat support is very nice as well.

 

I agree with Thomas that z26 is more accurate than Stella (in some cases), but featurewise, Stella has many more. Here are some I can think of off the top of my head, in no particular order:

 

- OpenGL rendering, with optional bilinear filtering, and aspect correction

- Integrated GUI with ROM launcher

- Integrated debugger

- Cross-platform support (Linux, OSX, Win32, WinCE, GP2X, etc)

- Stereo sound (on those ROMs that support it)

- Cheatcode support (with ability to search for cheats in the debugger)

- Simulated cartridge frying

- Event remapping for emulation events (and as of version 2.3, also for GUI events)

- Modifiable external properties file, to override the built-in defaults

 

These are some of the major features that no other 2600 emulator has right now. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, but you get the idea.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

IMO (being a homebrewer) rock solid emulation should have preference about features. I hope you will be able to fix the existing problems soon.

[+stephena]

IMO (being a homebrewer) rock solid emulation should have preference about features. I hope you will be able to fix the existing problems soon.

The following TIA-related bugs have been fixed in the past weeks:

 

1) The emubug.bin ROM could tell if it's running on an emulator or the real thing is now fixed; obviously a bug since an emulator is supposed to work exactly the same as a real system.

 

2) Vertical bars not being drawn in jf2.bin ROM are now drawn.

 

3) Metroid20060303.bin ROM now works correctly.

 

There are a few other fixes, but the CVS commits list isn't showing them right now, so I can't remember what they were. Now that Brad is back on board and working on a revised TIA class, I think the next release will contain some nice fixes.

[vdub_bobby]

Wasn't there some kind of issue with the RIOT timer as well? Can't remember exactly what, I think it had to do with the behavior of the timer after it counted down all the way...

 

And is supercat's priority bug being addressed? IIRC, the priority order of graphics objects is incorrect (in Stella and z26) when the playfield is in "score" mode.

[+stephena]

Wasn't there some kind of issue with the RIOT timer as well? Can't remember exactly what, I think it had to do with the behavior of the timer after it counted down all the way...

 

And is supercat's priority bug being addressed? IIRC, the priority order of graphics objects is incorrect (in Stella and z26) when the playfield is in "score" mode.

Yes, I think those bugs were reported in the 'Stella bug reports' thread, so they've been sent to Brad for consideration. If you have any bugs to report, or a more in-depth explanation of the bugs you mentioned above, please report it in that thread (which is temping as a Bugzilla thing until we get the sourceforge bug reporting online).

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Will Splatform 2600 now work 100% correct, too?

[telengard]

The question was posed by the almight x-port of whether he should switch to stella as the source for emulation of the 2600 as opposed to using Z26. So I thought I\\\'d ask here to get everyones thoughts....

 

My first thought is yes. Z26 has not been touched in 2 years and stella (best I can tell) has pretty much surpassed Z26. Input? Thoughts?

 

Oh and if someone could list some ideal games to use as a testbed, please let me know. That way if he does it and then releases it I can try out some ROMS that are known to be trouble makers.

 

In case you didn\'t figure it out this is for the xbox.

 

He just recentally released a 7800 emulator based on MESS which is quite nice!

 

Thanks!

 

Is this x-port that ported all kinds of emulators to the xbox? I thought he was MIA? Hrmm, I'll have to go check this stuff out.

As for the z26 -vs- Stella, I personally still use z26 but I haven't checked out Stella in a long time. Sounds like I should check that out too.

 

~telengard

[Shannon]

Well you musta been sleeping on the xbox scene the last 9 months....

 

He is recompiling all his emu's (as well as doing additional ones) all with the new interface and any updates / bug requests that users make. He is currently redoing Z26 which needs an update bigtime!

 

New emu's he has done this year have been...

 

Mednafen- Nes, Lynx, and PCE

Atari 7800

Supervision

Chip 8

Pokemon mini

Sega VMU

Virtual Boy

Texas Instruments TI-99

Meka? Can't remember if this is new (replaced SMSplus).

 

And he updated several of his older emulators including the Genesis, GBA, Amiga, PSX (he's doing that right now), Vic-20, Pet, C64 (supports gamebases v01-v03 and theoritically v04).

 

I think I got them all...

[telengard]

Well you musta been sleeping on the xbox scene the last 9 months....

 

He is recompiling all his emu's (as well as doing additional ones) all with the new interface and any updates / bug requests that users make. He is currently redoing Z26 which needs an update bigtime!

 

New emu's he has done this year have been...

 

Mednafen- Nes, Lynx, and PCE

Atari 7800

Supervision

Chip 8

Pokemon mini

Sega VMU

Virtual Boy

Texas Instruments TI-99

Meka? Can't remember if this is new (replaced SMSplus).

 

And he updated several of his older emulators including the Genesis, GBA, Amiga, PSX (he's doing that right now), Vic-20, Pet, C64 (supports gamebases v01-v03 and theoritically v04).

 

I think I got them all...

 

Hehe, yeah I haven't checked up in quite a while. Mostly because I have replaced the xbox with my own set top box running windows and emulators. It's workin' pretty good. I'm still gonna go grab this stuff though, would be good for the basement!

 

~telengard

[Trebor]

The huge and ultimately winning factor to me for perferred emulator is the fact that Stella allows you to re-map every function. From console, controller, to exiting and saving, screenshots and more. I love it.

 

The OpenGL support in Stella, unfortunately means little to none as I have a ATi Radeon 9800 card, and if I try to utilize the OpenGL support the emulator does anything from extreme slowness to crashing. Not Stella's fault though, poor OpenGL drivers from ATi. Nvidia users and other brand video cards appear to work fine with it.

 

-Trebor

[Paranoid]

I'm playing around with Stella 2.2 and it looks so much less refined than

StellaX v1.1.3a. The GUI seems really crude compared to the StellaX user interface.

 

I can't find a whole lot of menus on v2.2, for example, I can't figure out how to get it to go full-screen, something that the v1.1.3a of StellaX does fine.

 

Am I just missing something?

 

As far as my vote, it goes for Stella. From the perspective of a GAMER, Stella is just a great, easy, no-hassle application that makes it all easy, and generally works very well... I suppose if I were testing code that I intended for the real hardware, things might be different, but MOST people, for the average purpose, I think Stella is the better bet.

[Shannon]

I think when a game is loaded you bring up the GUI and pick "Game Properties" and somewhere in there you can set full-screen.

[SeaGtGruff]

I can't figure out how to get it to go full-screen

If you're running Stella in Windows, you can switch to full-screen mode by pressing Alt-Enter, and switch back to windowed mode by pressing Alt-Enter again. But I don't know if that works for all of the other operating systems.

 

MR

[+stephena]

I'm playing around with Stella 2.2 and it looks so much less refined than

StellaX v1.1.3a. The GUI seems really crude compared to the StellaX user interface.

StellaX was Win32 specific. We don't have the manpower to maintain a frontend for every port, so the decision was made to make a cross-platform GUI. Now, Stella looks the same on all platforms, but it may not look as nice as before. But as I've said many times (on other lists), someone can still make a Win32-specific frontend/launcher, and have it look exactly like StellaX. I just don't have the time to do it.

I can't find a whole lot of menus on v2.2, for example, I can't figure out how to get it to go full-screen, something that the v1.1.3a of StellaX does fine.

Alt-Enter (Cmd-Enter on OSX) toggles this. Or go to the 'Video Settings' menu, accessed by pressing the TAB key while playing a game.

As far as my vote, it goes for Stella. From the perspective of a GAMER, Stella is just a great, easy, no-hassle application that makes it all easy, and generally works very well... I suppose if I were testing code that I intended for the real hardware, things might be different, but MOST people, for the average purpose, I think Stella is the better bet.

This was/is the main goal of Stella. Someone just wanting to start with playing a game should only have to download one archive, and have it contain a GUI/debugger/whatever they need to start playing. I agree it isn't as accurate as it could be for developers, but the new TIA updates for the next version should take care of these problems.

[Paranoid]

So, then if StellaX is working fine for me for the majority of games I use it for, and I like the front-end, then there really isn't a compelling reason for me to upgrade to version 2.x...

 

Either way, though... I think Stella is much easier to deal with as a gamer than the other options.

[+stephena]

So, then if StellaX is working fine for me for the majority of games I use it for, and I like the front-end, then there really isn't a compelling reason for me to upgrade to version 2.x...

 

Either way, though... I think Stella is much easier to deal with as a gamer than the other options.

Of course, that can be said of any software. If you're comfortable with what you have, then keep using it. If you don't need any of the new features in the 2.x codebase, then sticking with 1.x might be best. There really have been huge changes between the two codebases; so much so that I can't remember them all right now. But as always, use what works best for you.