Power supplies

[atariksi]

I can verify that the ingot PS can cause catastrophic damage to the motherboard of the computer. I recently had an ingot plugged into my favorite 320K 130XE. The PS went bad, and fried my computer. I gave it to a member of this forum in exchange for him upgrading my replacement motherboard to 320K. He said that all of the memory was fried on my old board. He hasn't had a chance to check any of the other chips out yet, but obviously, ALOT of damage was done to my board from that crappy PS. I threw that ingot in the garbage along with another one that I still have, and ordered 2 of the black brick units from Best Electronics. I hope that nobody else has this problem. As a side note, I accidentally plugged that bad Ingot PS into my 800XL, and the XL survived completely intact. I truly hope that nobody else has the same problem because I hate to see any atari equipment ruined in this manner. Beware of the ingot Power Supplies.

 

Bradd

 

Does the Ingot power supply say "Ingot" on it or it just looks like the one pictured on center top?

[Ross PK]

Looks like I best get a different power supply then since I have 'The Ingot'.

[Tezz]

2-3 years ago I bought five of the safe C70042-01's for all the XL's and XE's and disposed of the other types of power supply that I had.

[Ross PK]

What about the other power supplies, I know you guys say they're safe, but is that because it's very rare that they fail (and if they did they would still damage the computer)?, or is it because if they fail they wont damage the computer?

[Ross PK]

2-3 years ago I bought five of the safe C70042-01's for all the XL's and XE's and disposed of the other types of power supply that I had.

 

I'll still keep mine, just for nostalgia purposes, since I'm almost 100% sure that I had the ingot when I was a kid. May put a tag on the wire saying 'do not use, could damage computer' though, just in case I ever forgot or someone else decided to use my 800XL.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Ross PK

[Tezz]

I've kept my original 800xl's Ingot which I've had since '84. I've never had any problems with it but decided to play it safe with the recommended good type. I guess the Ingot was pretty common here supplied with the XL's, I don't remember seeing the other types back then.

[MEtalGuy66]

I had one blow up back in he day.. it was the original one that came with my 800xl...made the atari do all kinds of terrific colors & designs all over the screen.. So I replaced it with the BIG black plastic PSU that has the "vents" kinda like an XL case..

 

Anywayze.. The old one didnt have any screws, so I took it apart with a hammer.. and I remember it was pumped full of greenish brown epoxy.. God knows why they would do that.. I guess they didn't want anyone knowing exactly how crappy they were building those things.

[atariksi]

I had one blow up back in he day.. it was the original one that came with my 800xl...made the atari do all kinds of terrific colors & designs all over the screen.. So I replaced it with the BIG black plastic PSU that has the "vents" kinda like an XL case..

 

Anywayze.. The old one didnt have any screws, so I took it apart with a hammer.. and I remember it was pumped full of greenish brown epoxy.. God knows why they would do that.. I guess they didn't want anyone knowing exactly how crappy they were building those things.

 

I remember they did something like that with DigiView for Amiga-- one of the best still frame digitizers at the time. If you tried to open it, you can only break the item.

[MEtalGuy66]

I had one blow up back in he day.. it was the original one that came with my 800xl...made the atari do all kinds of terrific colors & designs all over the screen.. So I replaced it with the BIG black plastic PSU that has the "vents" kinda like an XL case..

 

Anywayze.. The old one didnt have any screws, so I took it apart with a hammer.. and I remember it was pumped full of greenish brown epoxy.. God knows why they would do that.. I guess they didn't want anyone knowing exactly how crappy they were building those things.

 

I remember they did something like that with DigiView for Amiga-- one of the best still frame digitizers at the time. If you tried to open it, you can only break the item.

 

Yep.. I had all 3 versions of the digiview... Just so you know, its not a frame grabber.. It's a very SLOW-scan monochrome digitizer.. You had to do three SLOW scans to get a color image.. The whole process can take several minutes. The DCTV (which came out much later) had a much faster-scan color digitizer, but it still took 10 seconds or so.. A frame grabber takes an entire image in a fraction of a second, either into it's own internal memory, or the computer's via fast DMA access over the expansion bus.. The LIVE! card (or sidecar depending on what model AMIGA you had) came out about the same time as digiview (or shortly thereafter) and was an actual frame grabber.. Of course, the price difference between the two was huge..

[atariksi]

I had one blow up back in he day.. it was the original one that came with my 800xl...made the atari do all kinds of terrific colors & designs all over the screen.. So I replaced it with the BIG black plastic PSU that has the "vents" kinda like an XL case..

 

Anywayze.. The old one didnt have any screws, so I took it apart with a hammer.. and I remember it was pumped full of greenish brown epoxy.. God knows why they would do that.. I guess they didn't want anyone knowing exactly how crappy they were building those things.

 

I remember they did something like that with DigiView for Amiga-- one of the best still frame digitizers at the time. If you tried to open it, you can only break the item.

 

Yep.. I had all 3 versions of the digiview... Just so you know, its not a frame grabber.. It's a very SLOW-scan monochrome digitizer.. You had to do three SLOW scans to get a color image.. The whole process can take several minutes. The DCTV (which came out much later) had a much faster-scan color digitizer, but it still took 10 seconds or so.. A frame grabber takes an entire image in a fraction of a second, either into it's own internal memory, or the computer's via fast DMA access over the expansion bus.. The LIVE! card (or sidecar depending on what model AMIGA you had) came out about the same time as digiview (or shortly thereafter) and was an actual frame grabber.. Of course, the price difference between the two was huge..

 

I did have a live frame grabber as well-- Perfect Vision. But you needed tons of RAM to save any good sequence and I have yet to find a good source for those 1MBit DIP RAM chips. I have like 4 8MB boards that are either unpopulated or populated up to 2MB with empty sockets for 1Mbit DRAM chips.

 

One thing about ebay-- DRAM chips are expensive there.

[eegad]

Hmmmm. You know, back in the day, I never took notice of different power supplies. Just lately I've set up one of my 800xl's to play with. I have three of them. Two stock, one with 256k Rambo upgrade. I kept the original boxes, and they've each been packed away for the last 17 years. Each of the three came with a different power supply. One with the HUGE black one; one with the medium sized brick with silver label on top; one with what is being called the bad "ingot". Funny thing is, I *know* that the only power supply that ever really got used back then was the "ingot". I guess I used it because it was the smallest and was similar in size to the 1050 disk drive supplies. I'm going to guess that my 'ingot' was plugged in 24/7 from early '84 til late '92, when I finally 'retired' my Atari and bought a Mac.

 

So I'm just wondering, after stumbling upon and reading about how bad the 'ingots' were, how much trouble did people REALLY experience with them? Was I just THAT lucky??? 8 years or so, non-stop with no trouble?

 

In any case, I'm currently using the silver-labelled brick nowadays.

[atariksi]

Hmmmm. You know, back in the day, I never took notice of different power supplies. Just lately I've set up one of my 800xl's to play with. I have three of them. Two stock, one with 256k Rambo upgrade. I kept the original boxes, and they've each been packed away for the last 17 years. Each of the three came with a different power supply. One with the HUGE black one; one with the medium sized brick with silver label on top; one with what is being called the bad "ingot". Funny thing is, I *know* that the only power supply that ever really got used back then was the "ingot". I guess I used it because it was the smallest and was similar in size to the 1050 disk drive supplies. I'm going to guess that my 'ingot' was plugged in 24/7 from early '84 til late '92, when I finally 'retired' my Atari and bought a Mac.

 

So I'm just wondering, after stumbling upon and reading about how bad the 'ingots' were, how much trouble did people REALLY experience with them? Was I just THAT lucky??? 8 years or so, non-stop with no trouble?

 

In any case, I'm currently using the silver-labelled brick nowadays.

 

I think they are calling the one on the center and top of the picture the "ingot" one not the smallest one. I have the smallest 1A one and it gets hot faster but it's still running fine. And the "ingot" one supposedly when it breaks down causes more damage to the machine than another one when it breaks down.

[atariksi]

Hmmmm. You know, back in the day, I never took notice of different power supplies. Just lately I've set up one of my 800xl's to play with. I have three of them. Two stock, one with 256k Rambo upgrade. I kept the original boxes, and they've each been packed away for the last 17 years. Each of the three came with a different power supply. One with the HUGE black one; one with the medium sized brick with silver label on top; one with what is being called the bad "ingot". Funny thing is, I *know* that the only power supply that ever really got used back then was the "ingot". I guess I used it because it was the smallest and was similar in size to the 1050 disk drive supplies. I'm going to guess that my 'ingot' was plugged in 24/7 from early '84 til late '92, when I finally 'retired' my Atari and bought a Mac.

 

So I'm just wondering, after stumbling upon and reading about how bad the 'ingots' were, how much trouble did people REALLY experience with them? Was I just THAT lucky??? 8 years or so, non-stop with no trouble?

 

In any case, I'm currently using the silver-labelled brick nowadays.

 

I think they are calling the one on the center and top of the picture the "ingot" one not the smallest one. I have the smallest 1A one and it gets hot faster but it's still running fine. And the "ingot" one supposedly when it breaks down causes more damage to the machine than another one when it breaks down.

 

Hey, Hatta, look here.

[+wood_jl]

I had heard of the problems with the "ingot" (black label) for years and years but never seen it happen. I had used it myself for years, previously.

 

Not until last year (or possibly 2008) I bought a nice-looking 800XL from Ebay that came with one. The auction was cheap, "tested to power on only." Yes, the red LED came on, but the screen was garbage and buzzing and I thought the thing was dead. Tried another PSU and the machine works perfectly. Amazing nothing was fried.

 

Now I'm a believer.

 

I have replaced all my "ingots" with "bricks" (silver label) except my main machine (whichever it is currently) I use the huge black brick like Metalguy66 is talking about. It has the XL fringe around the edges. It's HUGE!!! [interestingly, Atari used the same PSU case (XL-style) for 520ST external power supplies, because the issue wasn't confusing enough]

 

I'd like one of the huge brick-style in XL white like you sometimes see. We're talking EARLY 800XL for one of those, no less.

 

I cut the cords off my bad ingot and tossed it. Not before taking a hammer and chisel to it to have a look-see. I have 2 working ingots that I can't seem to place in the garbage, despite the fact that they've been replaced. Maybe it's because they'll be intact, in the dump long after I'm dead, only to be dug up by future species who'll judge us by them. Maybe keep them in the car as road rage projectiles?

[atariksi]

I had heard of the problems with the "ingot" (black label) for years and years but never seen it happen. I had used it myself for years, previously.

 

Not until last year (or possibly 2008) I bought a nice-looking 800XL from Ebay that came with one. The auction was cheap, "tested to power on only." Yes, the red LED came on, but the screen was garbage and buzzing and I thought the thing was dead. Tried another PSU and the machine works perfectly. Amazing nothing was fried.

 

Now I'm a believer.

 

I have replaced all my "ingots" with "bricks" (silver label) except my main machine (whichever it is currently) I use the huge black brick like Metalguy66 is talking about. It has the XL fringe around the edges. It's HUGE!!! [interestingly, Atari used the same PSU case (XL-style) for 520ST external power supplies, because the issue wasn't confusing enough]

 

I'd like one of the huge brick-style in XL white like you sometimes see. We're talking EARLY 800XL for one of those, no less.

 

I cut the cords off my bad ingot and tossed it. Not before taking a hammer and chisel to it to have a look-see. I have 2 working ingots that I can't seem to place in the garbage, despite the fact that they've been replaced. Maybe it's because they'll be intact, in the dump long after I'm dead, only to be dug up by future species who'll judge us by them. Maybe keep them in the car as road rage projectiles?

 

 

I have a couple of the "white" XL-looking power supply units. They get somewhat yellowed over time so finding a real white one would be rare.

[Hatta]

Oh noes, my PS is an ingot. Thanks for the heads up!

[atariksi]

Oh noes, my PS is an ingot. Thanks for the heads up!

 

I also have been using ingot PS for the XEGS. You're not supposed to use it once it goes bad, but to avoid taking risk people have been avoiding it all together.

[BillC]

If you have an INGOT power supply you do not have to throw it away.

 

For those having an INGOT that hasn't failed yet, I would recommend adding a fuse and a "crowbar" circuit to the output, like the one at http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/scr_overvoltage_crowbar/scr_over_voltage_crowbar.php shown below. The addition of this circuit would make any regulated DC power supply safer.

 

 

By using a 5.1V or 5.6V Zener diode, the SCR would trigger and blow the fuse if that voltage was exceeded, protecting the Atari system. I built a custom power supply with the fuse and SCR installed before the voltage regulator, using a 5.1V Zener diode, over 20 years ago.

 

Before I built the custom power supply, when my INGOT power supply failed it killed the 41256 RAM chips in a memory upgrade, as the higher density chips are more sensitive. There was no other damage to the 800XL. This power supply is still usable, as I added a new +5V regulator circuit into the cord to the DIN plug. If the power supply had failed with a low voltage it would have been unusable, but then it wouldn't have killed the RAM chips either.

 

One recommendation I have for anyone with a memory upgrade system is to get at least a 1.5A +5V supply, as I think that the additional power requirements of the upgraded systems are one of the causes of the 1A power supply failures. I had no problems with the INGOT power supply until soon after I had the 256KB upgrade installed, although this may just have been coincidence.

Edited May 3, 2010 by BillC

[Kjmann]

I had a Problem with the one Labeled "The Mini". What a POS. almost as bad as the "Ingot". When "The Mini" Died, I got the Multi-Colored Screen with the "Heat Waves" going through it.

 

I had an "Ingot" as well. What an over sized Door Stop. I managed to Salvage my XL after one of those went bad on me by replacing 5 ram chips.

 

It's power supplies like These that Led me to develop My New XL/XE Power Converter. With the Used Power Supplies, It's a crap shoot whether or not you will get a bad one or one that's on the verge of going bad.

[BillC]

I had a Problem with the one Labeled "The Mini". What a POS. almost as bad as the "Ingot". When "The Mini" Died, I got the Multi-Colored Screen with the "Heat Waves" going through it.

 

I had an "Ingot" as well. What an over sized Door Stop. I managed to Salvage my XL after one of those went bad on me by replacing 5 ram chips.

 

It's power supplies like These that Led me to develop My New XL/XE Power Converter. With the Used Power Supplies, It's a crap shoot whether or not you will get a bad one or one that's on the verge of going bad.

 

Unless you have included a fuse and crowbar circuit then your power supply converter could still damage a system with a regulator failure. With the crowbar if the power supply regulator fails with high voltage output all that happens is the fuse blows. I also think you should recommend a minimum of a 1.5A power supply instead of 1A for use with your power converter.

 

The crowbar circuit could probably be added internally with the larger ventilated 1.5A Atari power supplies.

 

If I were to need a new XL/XE power supply I believe I would use a modern switching power supply along with the crowbar circuit. I have a few +5V switching power supplies from failed routers/firewalls or other electronics devices, and they are also available at some electonic supply stores at reasonable prices. Just plug it into the crowbar circuit, with an Atari DIN power plug on the output.

 

An example is the +5V@1.5A RPR-051A5-P5, <$15.00, available at RP Electronics. They also have a +5V@5A model, RPT25-05-P5-A2, for about $20.00 + $4 to $5 for the power cord. An advantage of these is they are 100-240VAC compatible.

 

I also have a couple of dual output voltage, +5V@2A/+12V@2A, switching power supplies, also 100-240VAC compatible, that came with USB to IDE/SATA interfaces I purchased. These have 4-pin molex connectors to plug directly into 3.5" HDD, and could be used as a replacement power supply for a 1050/XF551 drive, bypassing the internal 7805 and 7812 regulators.

Edited May 4, 2010 by BillC

[Kjmann]

 

Unless you have included a fuse and crowbar circuit then your power supply converter could still damage a system with a regulator failure. I also think you should recommend a minimum of a 1.5A power supply instead of 1A.

 

If I were to need a new power supply I believe I would use a modern switching power supply along with the crowbar circuit I mentioned in an earlier post. I have a few +5V switching power supplies from failed routers/firewalls or other electronics devices, and they are also available at some electonic specialty stores at reasonable prices. Just plug it into the crowbar circuit, with an Atari DIN power plug on the output.

 

An example is the +5V@1.5A RPR-051A5-P5, <$15.00, available at RP Electronics. They also have a +5V@5A model, RPT25-05-P5-A2, for about $20.00 + $4 to $5 for the power cord. An advantage of these is they are 115/230V compatible.

 

I also have a couple of dual output voltage, +5V@2A/+12V@2A, switching power supplies that came with USB to IDE/SATA interfaces I purchased. These have 4-pin molex connectors to plug directly into 3.5" HDD, and could be used as a replacement power supply for a 1050/XF551 drive, bypassing the internal 7805 and 7812 regulators.

 

A Fuse and a crowbar circuit is not necessary. the regulator we use is Fused. when it fails the 1st thing it does is cut off all power. that is only if the regulator was to exceed the recommended voltage input which is Max 35 volts. I have tested this extensively with the prototype and still was not able to get it to blow the regulator. it blew the Caps and diodes first at 25 volts since they are rated for 16 volts max. this of course stopped all power to the Atari, Also.

 

The need of a 1.5amp Power supply is only necessary of you are running a lot of peripherals that power them selves off the Atari itself. I have been running a 600XL with a 1amp 12volt adapter using an SIO2SD and the 1064 upgrade for a week now with the voltage meter showing a constant 5.00 Volts under load. (5.04 volts when the system is off)

[+bob1200xl]

I think the difference between these supplies is the output circuit - either a pass transistor or an integrated regulator. A pass transistor will tend to fail as a short from collector to emitter, where the IC will just shut down (gracefully). A shorted pass transistor will generally send more than 7 volts into your computer, a sure way to burn something or, many somethings! When the video has the black horizontal bar and loud buzz in the audio, it is (normally - also could be one diode has croaked) a failure of the filter capacitor. This will not overstress your computer since the output voltage never exceeds 5 volts. (not that your Atari will work that way...)

 

All of the Atari power supplies are analog circuits. You can use a switching supply if you like, with the same exposure vs. pass transistor or IC regulator.

 

Bob

 

 

I had a Problem with the one Labeled "The Mini". What a POS. almost as bad as the "Ingot". When "The Mini" Died, I got the Multi-Colored Screen with the "Heat Waves" going through it.

 

I had an "Ingot" as well. What an over sized Door Stop. I managed to Salvage my XL after one of those went bad on me by replacing 5 ram chips.

 

It's power supplies like These that Led me to develop My New XL/XE Power Converter. With the Used Power Supplies, It's a crap shoot whether or not you will get a bad one or one that's on the verge of going bad.

 

Unless you have included a fuse and crowbar circuit then your power supply converter could still damage a system with a regulator failure. I also think you should recommend a minimum of a 1.5A power supply instead of 1A.

 

If I were to need a new power supply I believe I would use a modern switching power supply along with the crowbar circuit I mentioned in an earlier post. I have a few +5V switching power supplies from failed routers/firewalls or other electronics devices, and they are also available at some electonic specialty stores at reasonable prices. Just plug it into the crowbar circuit, with an Atari DIN power plug on the output.

 

An example is the +5V@1.5A RPR-051A5-P5, <$15.00, available at RP Electronics. They also have a +5V@5A model, RPT25-05-P5-A2, for about $20.00 + $4 to $5 for the power cord. An advantage of these is they are 115/230V compatible.

 

I also have a couple of dual output voltage, +5V@2A/+12V@2A, switching power supplies that came with USB to IDE/SATA interfaces I purchased. These have 4-pin molex connectors to plug directly into 3.5" HDD, and could be used as a replacement power supply for a 1050/XF551 drive, bypassing the internal 7805 and 7812 regulators.

[+bob1200xl]

You supplied a full-blown crowbar circuit that would work just fine. A simpler solution might be a 5 watt, 5.6volt zener diode (1N5339B from Digi-Key, $.55) that would work just as well to blow the fuse. Mount it AFTER the fuse... it will pull at least 1 amp or more - enough to open a fast-blow fuse.

 

Bob

 

 

 

If you have an INGOT power supply you do not have to throw it away.

 

For those having an INGOT that hasn't failed yet, I would recommend adding a fuse and a "crowbar" circuit to the output, like the one at http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/scr_overvoltage_crowbar/scr_over_voltage_crowbar.php shown below. The addition of this circuit would make any regulated DC power supply safer.

 

 

By using a 5.1V or 5.6V Zener diode, the SCR would trigger and blow the fuse if that voltage was exceeded, protecting the Atari system. I built a custom power supply with the fuse and SCR installed before the voltage regulator, using a 5.1V Zener diode, over 20 years ago.

 

Before I built the custom power supply, when my INGOT power supply failed it killed the 41256 RAM chips in a memory upgrade, as the higher density chips are more sensitive. There was no other damage to the 800XL. This power supply is still usable, as I added a new +5V regulator circuit into the cord to the DIN plug. If the power supply had failed with a low voltage it would have been unusable, but then it wouldn't have killed the RAM chips either.

 

One recommendation I have for anyone with a memory upgrade system is to get at least a 1.5A +5V supply, as I think that the additional power requirements of the upgraded systems are one of the causes of the 1A power supply failures. I had no problems with the INGOT power supply until soon after I had the 256KB upgrade installed, although this may just have been coincidence.

[BillC]

When my ingot power supply failed it output about 7.5-8.0V which fried the 256Kb chips in the memory upgrade, without any other damage to the 800XL. At that time, mid to late 80s, I just put a new 7805 regulator inline on the power cord. When I purchased a 1MB Newell upgrade for another 800XL, I built a new power supply from scratch, including a crowbar circuit, for it. At the time it had been expensive enough to replace the 8-41256 chips in the first 800XL, I wasn't taking any chances with the 1MB 800XL.

 

Some advantages of using the switching power supplies is they are light, compact, +80% efficient and generate little heat. Linear regulated power supplies are normally in the 50-60% efficiency range and can generate quite a bit of heat. The switchers also appear to be reliable, and adding an inexpensive crowbar circuit between the supply and the Atari system, while maybe not necessary, does gives peace of mind as well as over-voltage protection in case of failure.

 

I think the difference between these supplies is the output circuit - either a pass transistor or an integrated regulator. A pass transistor will tend to fail as a short from collector to emitter, where the IC will just shut down (gracefully). A shorted pass transistor will generally send more than 7 volts into your computer, a sure way to burn something or, many somethings! When the video has the black horizontal bar and loud buzz in the audio, it is (normally - also could be one diode has croaked) a failure of the filter capacitor. This will not overstress your computer since the output voltage never exceeds 5 volts. (not that your Atari will work that way...)

 

All of the Atari power supplies are analog circuits. You can use a switching supply if you like, with the same exposure vs. pass transistor or IC regulator.

 

Bob

 

 

I had a Problem with the one Labeled "The Mini". What a POS. almost as bad as the "Ingot". When "The Mini" Died, I got the Multi-Colored Screen with the "Heat Waves" going through it.

 

I had an "Ingot" as well. What an over sized Door Stop. I managed to Salvage my XL after one of those went bad on me by replacing 5 ram chips.

 

It's power supplies like These that Led me to develop My New XL/XE Power Converter. With the Used Power Supplies, It's a crap shoot whether or not you will get a bad one or one that's on the verge of going bad.

 

Unless you have included a fuse and crowbar circuit then your power supply converter could still damage a system with a regulator failure. I also think you should recommend a minimum of a 1.5A power supply instead of 1A.

 

If I were to need a new power supply I believe I would use a modern switching power supply along with the crowbar circuit I mentioned in an earlier post. I have a few +5V switching power supplies from failed routers/firewalls or other electronics devices, and they are also available at some electonic specialty stores at reasonable prices. Just plug it into the crowbar circuit, with an Atari DIN power plug on the output.

 

An example is the +5V@1.5A RPR-051A5-P5, <$15.00, available at RP Electronics. They also have a +5V@5A model, RPT25-05-P5-A2, for about $20.00 + $4 to $5 for the power cord. An advantage of these is they are 115/230V compatible.

 

I also have a couple of dual output voltage, +5V@2A/+12V@2A, switching power supplies that came with USB to IDE/SATA interfaces I purchased. These have 4-pin molex connectors to plug directly into 3.5" HDD, and could be used as a replacement power supply for a 1050/XF551 drive, bypassing the internal 7805 and 7812 regulators.

Edited May 4, 2010 by BillC

[Kjmann]

I have managed to blow our converter 3 times just to prove that it would take a ridiculous amount of abuse to ruin it and that it wouldn't harm the system in the Process.

 

Once by sending 40 volts which blew the Regulator. the regulator did not get past 5.23volts before it shut down.

This also destroyed the caps and Diodes in the process.

 

The second and third times were at 21.5 volts and 25 volts. Both times it just destroyed the Caps and Diodes.

 

all these times it was attached to a 600XL with SIO2SD and 1064 upgrade. I'm Proud to Say, No Damage at all! =)