COULD Jag have competed with the Playstation Graphically?

[BuddyBuddies]

Any thoughts on where the Jag II would have fallen within this argument?

 

JAg II was a monster and would have easily out done any system of the time.

the JaguarII would have crushed them all!!!!

[Gorf]

Any thoughts on where the Jag II would have fallen within this argument?

 

JAg II was a monster and would have easily out done any system of the time.

the JaguarII would have crushed them all!!!!

 

 

Well the DC would have beaten it. A machine designed with no engineers head

up their ass.

[Vigo]

I guess I can't help it...

 

.the manual helps but not all those bugs are bugs. Not everything in that doc is 100% true as we

have also found out. The main jump is not a bug if you consider the pipeline. It has a lot to do with

why normal coding of a jump instruction to and from local ram and main ram does not work. The

GPU...its 32 bits internally...that means so is the local ram...oh which btw is a parallel bus as it can

run internallly while the DSP can do the same leaving the host to use the bus freely. This was also

a feature not very well taken advantage of. The GPU externally however is 64 bits.....the pipeline

sees it that way to...that is all I will say.

 

But the Jag, like the play station can run in three seperate buses. The main

bus, the DSP 8k local bus and the GPU 4k local bus...they are all parallel.

 

Of course, if you manage to squeeze your main GPU rendering Code in 4K, the main bus is free for the Blitter and the object processor to access the data uninterrupted. How much this is an advantage against 2MB CPU Ram and seperate 1MB very fast VRAM in the PSX is anyone's decision.

 

What good is the 64 bit bus? The Blitter and the OPL MUST have it.

these two procesors access the main bus at 64 bit ALWAYS.

 

Yes, as graphic accelerators, they better use the full bandwidth of the DRAM.

 

They also have the ability to read smaller word sizes but the still do it 64 bits at a time.

 

Yes, because it simplifies the bus design. Having bus logic for seperate 8/16/32/64 bit reads is much more complex.

 

with the 68k off the bus and the DSP only hitting the bus for a few sample

data words to play samples( 8 channels of sound can be buffered in half the DSP local and

grab a few more words as the buffer empties, a very minimal hit.), the GPU spitting comands

can rock serious throughput if using the Blitter and OPL to do the graphical dirty work.

 

The way I see it, this is about finding the best balance arranging your code to utilize the 64bit bus most efficiently. When do I allow the GPU bus accesses to the main ram, when does the blitter should have all the cycles? And yes, the 68k should better be switched off completely...

 

Scott has a demo of the GPU ONLY and the OPL putting up 100's of 24 bit color scaling

large sprites moving ridiculously fast. It would not be able to do it on a 32 bit bus

as you would be only grabbing half the pixels you could be with twice the width.

 

Bus size is not the only factor of concerning rendering speed, it is also what kind of Ram is used, and how fast the Ram is accessed. For example, the PSX VRAM can be read out in parallel while writing to it. The Jaguar uses standard DRAM, which either can be read OR written to. To update the display, the Object processor has to read out the DRAM and update the line buffer, which prevents other devices to access the bus during this time. Furthermore, the PSX has a texture cache, which is also used by the Sprite rendering engine. That means, once you have a Sprite/Texture cached, you don't have to read it from VRAM anymore, leaving cycles to render to the VRAM. In the 3D realm, it gets more important, as operations are done on a per pixel base, not on a per word base anymore.

 

So in the end, it is much more complex than this. You can achieve everything with a fast 32 bit bus than on a slower 64 bit bus. If the Jaguar can draw more 24 bit Sprites per second than the PSX, I don't know. I wouldn't do this anyway in a system which has only 2MB of Ram, which has to be shared with everything.

 

The 64 bit bus can be owned by any processor. That means all other processor can be excluded

from using it during that time. Using the internal ram of the riscs for code and some data, you

can really rock some serious rendering.

 

It gives you lots of freedom, but also lots of burden to manage your code to take advantage of the bus most efficiently. I agree that the Jaguar rocks anything away done in 1993 and is a very impressive hardware. But I still doubt it can compete with the PSX in the 3D realm. The time the Jag GPU is feeding the blitter with texture data, and performing the 3D calculations by itself, the MIPS R3000 is totally free in the PSX, and the GTE is higly specialised in doing Matrix/Vector calculations, feeding the GPU with the vertex data of a scene via DMA. From a coder's point of view, the general purpose attempt of the Jaguar is more attractive, but also more challenging, but in the end, I still think the highly specialized 3D hardware of the PSX clearly outperforms the Jag. But again, I agree that the JAguar has lots of untapped potential.

 

Oberon.....TOM's next gen....is VERY impressive for 1994 and would have put a hurtin on

anything of its time. I have work in progress on the Oberon as I have the v 1.0 nets.

 

The new blitter is the same chip except can be fed a polygon in one command and buffer the next

command in shadow registers. The Jag blitter has to be triggered for each line of the poly. This of

course takes away time from another processor(the GPUor it should be)which though slower is where

the flexibility comes in. The new blitter can still do everything as the old blitter does. It also has an 8k

texture ROM and 8k internal texture cache...it also now texture maps in phrases instead of a pixel at a

time.

 

The new GPU no longer has local to main /main to local jump issues anymore. Larger caches

as well.

 

The new DSP, though that never made it to production was to have a FULL 64 bit access to the bus.

this would have made grabing sound sample data ridiculous fast. that would be 4, 16 bit samples per

read! You could read 8 channels of samples in two reads!!! Unfortunately the DSP in the Jag is connected

externally 16 bits.

 

 

The oberon also has bi and trilinear filtering, mip mapping and a whole host of other features

including alpha channel.

 

Yes, but we are talking about non-released hardware here.

 

And yes that Z buffer works at no extra cost BTW....providing you use CRY...it dont work in any

other mode. Jag can indeed do 24 bit RGB in hardware....but it obviuosly will be 33 % slower.

 

The manual says, gouraud shading only works in CRY mode, and does only modify Y, the "brightness" of a colour. This would be clearly inferior to the Playstation's gouraud shading, which works on full RGB, and although displayed in 15bit, it is computed in full 24bit colour internally. The PSX can also display 24bit gfx, though Sony did mainly use this mode to display MJPEG movies only, which is quite logical, since the framebuffer memory is precious when rendering 3D scenes with lots of textures.

 

After all, it IS possible to have a civilized discussion with you.

[Vigo]

I think I was too fast in honoring you...

 

Disappointing to say the least, now leaving the discussion.

 

 

What your blatant hypocracy? You insulted me first tell me i dont appear to be as knowledgeable

first and you go ahead with a tie raid on me now?

 

I never said you AREN'T knowledgeable, I said you APPEAR not as knowledgeable as you pretend to. And as long as you can't clarify what you mean with your self invented technical laymen terms like "the good, the bad, the ugly polygons", I stand by that.

 

here...more unintellegent caps for you...

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Clearly you are an argumenative dual standard loving wise ass to think I would be stupid enough to

not notice you utterly blatant and ridiculous hypocracy?

 

Perhaps you should start noticing some other, more important things I said concerning you, which are still unanswered. I am not stupid enough to not notice you most elegangtly avoided these points again. Not working with me.

 

Please do leave the discussion til you can take what you dish out.

 

I think I have proven more than once here, that I can take. Now it is up to you to show if you can do the same.

 

ah...free entertainment.

 

If that's what it is about for you, I do not wonder anymore about your answers.

[Vigo]

Yes? Then tell me Greg, what am I a fanboi of? Sony? Not really.

PS3. Now what, Greg? What is your next lame attempt at painting me as a fanboi?

 

What idiot would deny that the PS3 was designed with all of Sony's engineers heads up

there asses? It hardly exonerates you.

 

Now, again with this selective fanboy reading of my posts...

 

I not only said the PS3 deserves to fail, I said the same thing about the PS2. Now now...

 

I bitch and moan about the desicions of atari all the

time. It dont make me any less of a fan boy...post all the specs you want....till you code both,

you really dont know what you think you know.

 

Well, how much coding did you do on the PSX and the Saturn, yet you do all kinds of remarks about both of them? It's very clear coming from your remarks, you don't know so much about the PSX (or you intentionally leave out information here to make your point look better, which of course would be another possibilty). At least I have the balls, and take your statements to read the Atari development manual more closely, instead of letting you go around bonkers unquestioned. And now, don't tell me that the development docs are all completely wrong, and only you know the true power of the Jaguar.

 

I...yes me the jag fan but boy....even I know the mistakes of Atari...never doubted them.

The Jaguar failed for a ton of really retarded decisions....in spite of this...the machine for its

time was a masterpiece. You can not say that about the PS1 or Saturn...impressive yes...

masterpiece...no.

 

The PSX is for me a masterpiece as it nailed perfectly the balance between speed and design complexity/features. This can also be said of the Dreamcast.

[Gorf]

After all, it IS possible to have a civilized discussion with you.

 

Yes you can but pop always told me, it takes two to tango.

 

I never said the Jag would do AS much as the PS1 can in the 3D arena.

That would be ass-o-nine. As far as all your memory features in the PS1

you are correct, but if you search the archives of my rantings you will see

that I have always wished they seperated some of that ram on sperate busses

in the jaguar. The 68k is a detriment to the system. It would have been fine if

they had a seperate 16 bit 64k ram bus for it to so some AI.

 

They should have used another Tom, remove the bliter logic and OPL logic and all MMU logic

and allther video logic and used that silicon for a larger local ram.

 

SAM would have been worlds better than DRAM... I know..more money.

 

The Tom and Jerry are alot faster hooked up to SRAM and the risc can run at full speed

even externally as there are no wait states using SRAM. The DRAM is of course much

cheaper. The blitter and OPL also realize access time performance improvements.

DRAM is cheap but its also slower.

 

 

On code rendering in the local....we are doing that now...one load to the local.

ONCE! Not every frame. I have a version of a certain well loved classic game in 3D

with lots of polies running at 60 FPS. It still it not 100% RISC as the 68k handles

the interrupts and again, it is the sample renderer from Atari....this is what give me

great hopes. I know just how miserable that renderer is. It has great ablilties as far

as features go and can render many types of poly effects but the trouble it goes through

to do it, even for tutorial puposes is as inefficeint as I've seen. It essentially loads

16 bit vertice values from the main bus 16 bits at at time....ass-o-nine!!! It then uses

friggin pixel mode to draw the polies!!!! DUH! Trust me..there is mcuh that can be done.

 

The GPU has two lovely instructions.....storep and loadp. That writes/reads 64 bits..or

in this case 4 times the data in one write/read! That is just the begining. The GPU,

instead of being released to continue to calculate the next blitter command, waits

for the blitter to finish. Its doing nothing! Yikes! Instead of letting the GPU be

interrupted by the Blitter when it is done, it wastes tons of cycles just waiting

for the blitter. Oh the fustration!

 

In the words of Moe...."Numbskulls!"..Again, to be fair, it was a sample for

educational purposes and it does have nice lighting features and such.

 

On the oberon...I have the nets....it's possible ressurection is not out of the question.

You can bet I will greatly improve its clock and other things. I only brought it up to

show that the technology over time would have gotten better and better and would have

been a really nice architecture (chipwise) to upgrade and improve if the jaguar was

sucessful. Today if the Jaguar survived and flourished....we would probably be at Jag 4

with mutlicore GPU and blitters( oh yes, i drool), given todays tech.

 

I think it would haev at least been much better in design than te way Sony followed up .

The PS2 was in my opinion not great improvemnt over the DC. I still think the DC is

a much better system and it can certainly hols its own against the PS2. The PS3?

Put a piece of gum on it( a little Andrew D. Claism there...)! The modern day Jaguar

except 10 times as idiotic. Tools! Tools! Tools!

 

Am I lyin?

[Gorf]

If that's what it is about for you, I do not wonder anymore about your answers.

 

 

Yeah...if you say so. After all you are smarter than me.(Or at least you come across

like you think so.) Again.....it takes two to tango.

[Atariman]

Gorf, is the game you alluded to some previously written game for the Jaguar (IE: Cybermorph or something like that) or is it one of your own creation? (IE: "I swear, this isn't Gorf 3D, it just looks like something that would be")

 

I only ask as it seems that if it were possible to "redo" some of the Jaguar's games (AVP?) to allow for this increase, the ones suffering from horrible slowdown would surely benefit from something like this (assuming that it wouldn't be *too* hard to optimize them)

 

Of course, I really know nothing about programming games (which is why I am asking you), so I really don't know if this is feasible in the least our pure lunacy.

[Gorf]

Now, again with this selective fanboy reading of my posts...

 

Hardly...I have read what you said...see the following.....

 

I not only said the PS3 deserves to fail, I said the same thing about the PS2. Now now...

 

Again...only an idiot would disagree...the Jag did not deserve to fail...The system was impressive

even with its flaws. It was turned into a failure by really stupid decision making after the design.

PS2 and PS3 were falures at the design stage.

 

Well, how much coding did you do on the PSX and the Saturn, yet you do all kinds of remarks about both of them? It's very clear coming from your remarks, you don't know so much about the PSX (or you intentionally leave out information here to make your point look better, which of course would be another possibilty). At least I have the balls, and take your

 

You have balls alright... trying to fool anyone with your double speak.

 

I know little of coding the PSX or Saturn and NEVER claimed otherwise. I dont belive I have EVER

questioned your knowledge of the subject or disputed anything but the lack of flexibility ion the dedicated

3D hardware. Yet....you some how act as if I did. I only said I feel the JAg can impress even the Sony

fanboys...like yourself.

 

I actually get paid professionally to code but dont tell my boss I dont know nothing. He'll then fire me....

I can read specs too you know and I have read and studied specs for all systems as I am a game console fan.

 

I have not once questioned your knowledge of Saturn or the PS1...yet you feel I have.

 

I only stated and maintain that the Jaguar can hold its own to the PS1, not out do it or

keep up with it in poly counts. Again, that would be silly. I simply said the Jaguar is more

flexible at poly drawing...not faster or superior......get over it....

 

statements to read the Atari development manual more closely, instead of letting you go around bonkers unquestioned.

 

Show me where I misquoted the docs? Oh that's right..you can't...you just feel the need to accuse me falsely

to revert attention away from you. Any place I question the docs I can back up with code. I have several

testers who know as they are former jag coders themselves. They would be pissing their pants at some of

your looney toone retardation right now. You want civil yet your the biggest rouble maker yet with all the lies

you are telling in this reply alone.

 

 

And now, don't tell me that the development docs are all completely wrong, and only you know the true power of the Jaguar.

 

You are such a liar! When did I do this now?

 

Talk about stretching comments to look like the good guy...go re-read it. Where did I even imply

that I know more than the docs? It clear to me who the fan boy is....fan boy of his high and mighty

self. I said the docs are not 100% accurate as I have coded this machine for 12+ years and KNOW

for a FACT that some of the points are incorrect. The docs were written in 92! I guess no mistakes

EVER get made in product or development documentation...if any one is sounding unknowledgable

right now its you. Unbelieveable. the most suborn looking people are people who argue with those

with experience on the subject....in this reagard the specifically ...the Jaguar.

 

Your replies are so out of reach to what I said I can no longer take you serously even though you

do sound like you know what you are talking about. Trouble is your start shit and dont like taking

it back.

 

I cant stand the PS1..but I know it is more advanced in 3D than the Jaguar in terms of poly count

and speed. show me where I have ever disputed this? sho me where I have everimplied that the PS1

is inferior to the Jaguar other than in flexibility?...it never happened. I would not be so stupid to talk

about a machine I am not nearly as experienced in as with Jaguar.

 

Clearly....it is you who cant have a CIVIL converstation with someone as I am not the only one you

have poked in the eye in this thread. You are just pulling shit out of your ass now with this current crop

of bullshit.

[Gorf]

Gorf, is the game you alluded to some previously written game for the Jaguar (IE: Cybermorph or something like that) or is it one of your own creation? (IE: "I swear, this isn't Gorf 3D, it just looks like something that would be")

 

I only ask as it seems that if it were possible to "redo" some of the Jaguar's games (AVP?) to allow for this increase, the ones suffering from horrible slowdown would surely benefit from something like this (assuming that it wouldn't be *too* hard to optimize them)

 

Of course, I really know nothing about programming games (which is why I am asking you), so I really don't know if this is feasible in the least our pure lunacy.

 

 

Very funny tht you should mention AVP....there is a demo around, if you can find it of a beta of AVP before

they started any heavy AI...its as Fast as wolf3D...60 FPS always....the trouble is, they used the 68k to do

all that AI for the release....now you know why. The DSP does little in AVP. That should have been used to

do AI internally in its local. SO yes...AvP could have run probably 30-60 no sweat.

 

Oh...but dont listen to me...I dont know a damn thing about the Jaguar.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Gorf

[Gregory DG]

"Methinks thou protest too much..."

 

Wow. Some people just can't admit the truth of what they are. Amazing. At least we Jaguar fanboys can admit it.

[Gorf]

"Methinks thou protest too much..."

 

Wow. Some people just can't admit the truth of what they are. Amazing. At least we Jaguar fanboys can admit it.

 

 

 

Yes notice the defensiveness of his replies....every last line must be disputed, even if there is not dispute.

He MUST look smarter.....yu know what...I am a dumb mutha fucka.....but at least I admit it...

I can code the fuck out of a jaguar though....

 

Well...what can I tell you.......if he's not a Sony butt boy...then I hate the Jaguar.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Gorf

[A_Gorilla]

Any thoughts on where the Jag II would have fallen within this argument?

 

JAg II was a monster and would have easily out done any system of the time.

 

 

Really? Just how powerful was it compared to other consoles like PSX and PS2?

[Gorf]

Any thoughts on where the Jag II would have fallen within this argument?

 

JAg II was a monster and would have easily out done any system of the time.

 

 

Really? Just how powerful was it compared to other consoles like PSX and PS2?

 

It would been superior to the PS1 and even the PS2. I feel the PS2 was a fiaso.

It may have been powerful but it makes the Jaguar seem easy to program from

what I have been told by people who have coded all three. the truth is the Jaguar

is not hard to code for it you have the tools for it...oh well....

Edited June 21, 2007 by Gorf

[Vigo]

Now, again with this selective fanboy reading of my posts...

 

Hardly...I have read what you said...see the following.....

 

I not only said the PS3 deserves to fail, I said the same thing about the PS2. Now now...

 

Again...only an idiot would disagree...

 

Yes, only an idiot would disagree with your opinion, right?

 

the Jag did not deserve to fail...The system was impressive

even with its flaws. It was turned into a failure by really stupid decision making after the design.

PS2 and PS3 were falures at the design stage.

 

I never said the Jaguar did deserve to fail, which isn't my opinion either. The reason it failed was Atari's practically non-existant reputation in 1993, when everyone was talking Sega and Nintendo, and it was lacking a real killer app from the beginning. Software sells hardware. The same problem with the 7800.

 

Well, how much coding did you do on the PSX and the Saturn, yet you do all kinds of remarks about both of them? It's very clear coming from your remarks, you don't know so much about the PSX (or you intentionally leave out information here to make your point look better, which of course would be another possibilty). At least I have the balls, and take your

 

You have balls alright... trying to fool anyone with your double speak.

 

Alright, then point me out where I do attempt to fool anyone? And while you are at it, you still didn't eleborate on one of your previous statements, what are "good" and "bad" polygons, and what is "quality"?

 

This is, like what, the fifth time I am trying to nail you down on your own statements? In this whole discussion here, I was the only one to back up all my statements with technical explanations. You accuse me of fooling people here? On the contrary, all you do here is using your popularity to ram your laymen terms down people's throats, expecting them to swallow them unquestioned. In this context, your attempt to dodge my questions and instead, divert the discussion to me allone, is more than understandable.

 

I know little of coding the PSX or Saturn and NEVER claimed otherwise.

 

I never said so. The reason I am pointing this out now is your previous statement:

 

post all the specs you want....till you code both,

you really dont know what you think you know.

 

Which sounds kind of dumb now.

 

I dont belive I have EVER questioned your knowledge of the subject or disputed anything but the lack of flexibility ion the dedicated

3D hardware. Yet....you some how act as if I did. I only said I feel the JAg can impress even the Sony

fanboys...like yourself.

 

You were the one who marked my statements as "utter nonsense" and claimed I don't know anything at all.

 

I actually get paid professionally to code but dont tell my boss I dont know nothing. He'll then fire me....

I can read specs too you know and I have read and studied specs for all systems as I am a game console fan.

 

Being able to read specs alone doesn't mean you always interpret them correctly. Your dispute with jbanes in the 32x thread clearly shows that. You count 64 DRAM data lines in the Jaguar, and then starting to claim that the Jaguar is a 64bit machine, although that is totally against the standard definition how to define the "bitness" of a machine. With that definition, I could easily upgrade the bitness of my Intel PC by putting the latest GFX accelerator card into my system. You are the one who agrees with statements like "2 SH2's give 1 R3000 a run for it's money", yet, you totally disregard the fact that most 3D transformations in the PSX are NOT done by the CPU, but the GTE coprocessor, which runs in parallel with the CPU.

 

I have not once questioned your knowledge of Saturn or the PS1...yet you feel I have.

 

The only feeling I have is that you think no one can dispute your statements about the Atari's capabilities, because, after all, YOU are the one who spent 11 years coding it, so everything you say about its power is right, and everyone else is wrong, being just fanboys.

 

I only stated and maintain that the Jaguar can hold its own to the PS1, not out do it or

keep up with it in poly counts.

 

Again, that would be silly. I simply said the Jaguar is more

flexible at poly drawing...not faster or superior......get over it....

 

Yes, and everything I do want is to have a explanation from you, what do you mean with "image quality" and "good" vs "bad" polygons, because such claims are easily said. It's not the first time I am asking you this, you know?

 

 

statements to read the Atari development manual more closely, instead of letting you go around bonkers unquestioned.

 

Show me where I misquoted the docs? Oh that's right..you can't...you just feel the need to accuse me falsely

to revert attention away from you.

 

I didn't say you misquoted the docs. I merely said that >I< am reading the Atari development manual more closely now so that >I< can get a better picture of the Jaguar and its capabilities in comparison with the PSX. "Don't write yourself off: learn reading and comprehending."

 

But you are more than willing now to twist my statement and make all kinds of conclusions, right, which suits your preconcieved opinion about me, being the bad and evil Sony fanboy now, right?

 

Any place I question the docs I can back up with code. I have several

testers who know as they are former jag coders themselves. They would be pissing their pants at some of

your looney toone retardation right now.

 

Well, what was that again with you don't question my knowledge and competence? Nice how a misquoted sentence from me quickly reverts your "discussion" style back to insults and fecal language.

 

You want civil yet your the biggest rouble maker yet with all the lies

you are telling in this reply alone.

 

Again, the only thing I sense is that I am making you nervous, and this triggers all kind of reactions coming from you. You are too quick to call other people liars (also in the 32X discussion), thinking you are the king of the hill here.

[Vigo]

And now, don't tell me that the development docs are all completely wrong, and only you know the true power of the Jaguar.

 

You are such a liar! When did I do this now?

 

Again, now you are misreading my comment again. I did not say you do this now. This was an anticipation from me how your next answer might look. Which again, is a reference back to your previous statement:

 

post all the specs you want....till you code both,

you really dont know what you think you know.

 

because you love to stress in your other posts how long you have coded the Jaguar, implying that no one besides yourself is able to judge this machine.

 

Talk about stretching comments to look like the good guy...go re-read it. Where did I even imply

that I know more than the docs?

 

Well, technically, you know more than the docs, because you found out how to make the JUMP instruction work.

 

Now, you probably will twist this sentence from me into: "SEE, NOW HE SAYS I AM LYING ABOUT THE JUMP INSTRCUTION!!!".

 

It clear to me who the fan boy is....fan boy of his high and mighty

self.

 

Stop looking into the mirror.

 

I said the docs are not 100% accurate as I have coded this machine for 12+ years and KNOW

for a FACT that some of the points are incorrect.

 

Which I never disputed, you are fighting against hot air here.

 

The docs were written in 92! I guess no mistakes

EVER get made in product or development documentation...if any one is sounding unknowledgable

right now its you.

 

You know, are you really THAT incapable of reading and comprehending my posts, are are you doing this on purpose now?

 

Unbelieveable. the most suborn looking people are people who argue with those

with experience on the subject....in this reagard the specifically ...the Jaguar.

 

Now, why did I see that coming now?

 

Your replies are so out of reach to what I said I can no longer take you serously even though you

do sound like you know what you are talking about. Trouble is your start shit and dont like taking

it back.

 

I figured you out dude, especially after reading the discussion with jbanes yesterday. You are clever. You start now twisting my sentences to back up your false claims, and find the ultimate diversion to my questions: how can the jaguar produce "quality" graphics compared to the PSX, and what especially are "good vs bad" polygons? When you actually notice you are discussing with someone who has more knowledge than you in a certain field, you attend your energy now to denounce his credibility. But then again, it's all about entertainment, isn't it, Gorf?

 

I cant stand the PS1..

 

Something which I do not claim about the Jaguar.

 

but I know it is more advanced in 3D than the Jaguar in terms of poly count

and speed.

 

Which brings me again, back to the question: what can the Jaguar do better graphically? The Gouraud shading, for example, is clearly inferior to the PSX gouraud shading method.

 

show me where I have ever disputed this? sho me where I have everimplied that the PS1

is inferior to the Jaguar other than in flexibility?...it never happened.

 

That's the beauty of using vague claims like "quality" graphics. You are using now the fact that these words you use were merely semantics which, in reality, never meant anything concrete. You never said anything, and you are admitting it right here.

 

I would not be so stupid to talk

about a machine I am not nearly as experienced in as with Jaguar.

 

Yes, you are the big cheese here. The crowd is impressed.

 

Clearly....it is you who cant have a CIVIL converstation with someone as I am not the only one you

have poked in the eye in this thread.

 

Next tactic: after twisting his words and accusing him as a lier and a fanboy, bring the crowd against him and hide in it.

 

Sorry, but your tactics are more than transparent to me.

 

You are just pulling shit out of your ass now with this current crop

of bullshit.

 

Perhaps you should stop talking shit right now.

[Vigo]

"Methinks thou protest too much..."

 

Wow. Some people just can't admit the truth of what they are. Amazing. At least we Jaguar fanboys can admit it.

 

Yes notice the defensiveness of his replies....every last line must be disputed, even if there is not dispute.

 

What was that sentence again involving a glass house and throwing stones... ?

 

He MUST look smarter.....yu know what...I am a dumb mutha fucka.....but at least I admit it...

I can code the fuck out of a jaguar though....

 

I never said you are dumb. In fact, you are quite clever. Problem is, I deeply "pissed" you off for not letting your vague statements being left unquestioned and uncommented.

 

Well...what can I tell you.......if he's not a Sony butt boy...then I hate the Jaguar.

 

Yes, right now, I'm being paid by Sony to infiltrate and hypnotize your Jaguar community, providing subliminal messages saying: "Buy Playstation!", "BUY PLAYSTATION!!!". I am the enemy, you are the brave hero in his shiny armour fighting the dragon. And the crowd goes wild, cheering.

 

It surely seems to be about free entertainment here, as you put it.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Vigo

[Vigo]

"Methinks thou protest too much..."

 

Wow. Some people just can't admit the truth of what they are. Amazing. At least we Jaguar fanboys can admit it.

 

Fanboys can only think in terms of fanboys which is: everyone must be a fanboy!

[SwedenLynxer]

Hehe. Things never change around here. You guys really should visit the Lynx forum here at AA sometime. You might learn something. We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

[Vigo]

Hehe. Things never change around here. You guys really should visit the Lynx forum here at AA sometime. You might learn something. We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

 

This will change very quickly when someone enters your forum, deeply impressed with his knowledge about the Lynx, stating he is the only one able so far to unleash its power, and everyone who has a different picture of the Lynx is a liar and a fanboi...

Edited June 21, 2007 by Vigo

[+LS650]

We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

Peaceful = boring.

[Gorf]

Yes, only an idiot would disagree with your opinion, right?

 

Where have I implied that? It seems you can't take a contrary opinion.

 

 

Alright, then point me out where I do attempt to fool anyone? And while you are at it, you still didn't eleborate on one of your previous statements, what are "good" and "bad" polygons, and what is "quality"?

 

IF you have not read my answer I gave seevral times already, why would I eleaborate again?

The Jagur is more flexible and it can perform moer effects on the data in hardware where PS1

cant. The texturing of the PS1 is very blocky and looks AFFINE in nature. The jaguar games

Hoverstrike(you admit you never saw) does stunning mipp mapping ans ant aliasing and

quite amazing lighting. The Blitter, becasue each line is a new command can draw it polies

with a heck of a lot more effects that what you can get from dedicated hardware. I have yet to

see the PS1 use high color in a high rame rate. The Jaguar colors look crisper and the video quality

is sharper. I have backed up my statements with techdata.

 

 

You accuse me of fooling people here? On the contrary, all you do here is using your popularity to ram your laymen terms down people's throats, expecting them to swallow them unquestioned.

 

For one..every post you have posted so far.

 

Ram them down throats? Every statement you make gets dumber and dumber.

Examples please....

 

I post information based on my experience....more than you can say.

 

 

In this context, your attempt to dodge my questions and instead, divert the discussion to me allone, is more than understandable.

 

I have not dodged your question...you've ignored my answer.

 

 

Which sounds kind of dumb now.

 

No see you sound really dumb now. That statement was made based on my conversations with developers

who have coded both. They say it. I agree with them...why..experience and not shit house lawyer rants.

I have coded the JAg to know enough abotu what they are talking about when they share the info.

You have yet to show credentials...I have.

 

I dont belive I have EVER questioned your knowledge of the subject or disputed anything but the lack of You were the one who marked my statements as "utter nonsense" and claimed I don't know anything at all.

 

I dont beleive I ever said you know nothing at all...another lie. You were the first to insult.

 

 

Being able to read specs alone doesn't mean you always interpret them correctly. Your dispute with jbanes in the 32x thread clearly shows that. You count 64 DRAM data lines in the Jaguar, and then starting to claim that the Jaguar is a 64bit machine,

 

Jbanes? Go and read the SPECS and the PROOF I posted in that thread. Oh yeah you ignore facts

that make you look wrong.

 

64 bit data lines, a 64 bit Bliter and OPL all capable of reading writing, modifying and manipulating

64 bit chunks of data at a time....tellme what that is NOT a 64 bit SYSTEM? Dopnt tell me becasue

none of the processors have a 64 BIT ALU. That is the procesor and not the SYSTEM bitness. There

is a big difference. NOt all of the parts are but the sytems is design for 64 bit throughput. Is it the

ideal64 bit system? Hardly, yet it is still 64 bits where it needs to be.

 

 

And just where might we find this 'standard' definition? And please dont give me some pointy headed

profesors OPINION on what it is...show me the agreed upon industry standard for system bitness...

Oh...my goodness.....that's right....there is'nt one. I've not seen it at least.

 

I think PC's in this argument is a bit unfair with all the different way you can through one together, dont you?

The PC is a mess andI have to admit, I would not know how to classify that mess of this bus and that bus.

I admit ignorance on this one. I code the PC with aC complier liek everyone else and the tools are such that knowing the machine intimately is not at all necessary.

 

 

You are the one who agrees with statements like "2 SH2's give 1 R3000 a run for it's money", yet, you totally disregard the fact that most 3D transformations in the PSX are NOT done by the CPU, but the GTE coprocessor, which runs in parallel with the CPU.

 

I made a six word sentence about two processors. You now take it to make me out to look stupid.

I did not disregard anything, it was not included in the converstation in the first place. The SH2

is a very hearty chip..Yes I do code the DC and its big brother the SH4. I do also know that the MIPS

processors are no slouch. I still think2 sh2 can keep up with one r3000.Of course an axtra processor

in the Ps1 is going to make up for its short comings. that was not the discusion.YOU Disregard the saturns hardware for drawing the 3d.

 

 

The only feeling I have is that you think no one can dispute your statements about the Atari's capabilities, because, after all, YOU are the one who spent 11 years coding it, so everything you say about its power is right, and everyone else is wrong, being just fanboys.

 

Again example of how I ever said EVERYONE is wrong am Im right? Lies, lies, lies.....

I would gladly concede to a more experienced and more knowledgable JAguar coder.

You and Jbanes dont even qualify. Well at least I dont know as you both dodge my question

of your credentials. If you are more experienced with the jaguar say so. I can handle it.

I want to learn, not think I know it all like you. I know I have a lot to learn, but you come across

like you have arrived.

 

Yes, and everything I do want is to have a explanation from you, what do you mean with "image quality" and "good" vs "bad" polygons, because such claims are easily said. It's not the first time I am asking you this, you know?

 

Again...go read the thread withyour eyes open....why cant you understand that the polygons

look cleaner and crisper? Why cant you understand that the effects that can be performed

on EACH LINE of the draw poly can be altered line by line. Yuo cant do that on a PSX with

the dedicated hardware. The Sony can do all the effects the JAguar can but it cant do it out

of the dedicated hardware and therefore you will take serious sytem performance hits.

 

Why cant you understand that?.The blitter with the GPU is more flexible and can produced

a better looking polygon that will tend to not be blocky looking lke you find on most PS1 games,

at least the earlier ones. Why is that not an answer?

 

The Jaguar does not have dedicated hardware and is therefore more flexible and will do affected

polies more suited than the Sony can as it would need to perform all those effects on the scene

after rendering each polyface or on the textures before rendering. The Jaguar can compute that

line by line of each poly face and therfore you will get better looking better quality(as in effects)

than what the 3D dedicated hardware can do. This is not to say that the Sony can't do the same

thing. It does not use its 3d hardware to do it.

 

According to all the specs I read about the PS1, it can only do textured lighted shaded polies

in hardware. Everything else needs software intervention. This is all I am saying. The Jaguar

is hardware assisted, not dedicated. It ALWAYS has software intervention.The blitter can throw

up the line of a poly after the GPU does what ever effects it needs to on it. The blitter is capable

of it's own effects as well on the fly. It also has tons of read/write/modify options as well.

 

Now....if I am wrong about this and you say you know better, please tell me but I have never

seen anything to the contrary. The PS1 gets 3 vertices to its renderer and it draws it with textures,

lighting and shading. Anything else, another processor has to 'pre' affect or post affect it no?

 

Stop making more out of this question of your than is really is.

 

 

I didn't say you misquoted the docs.

statements to read the Atari development manual more closely, instead of letting you go around bonkers unquestioned.

 

 

Your own words. And who made you the jaguar knowledge corrections officer?

If you had more experience than I, I can see....but here you are, JUST now picking

up the docs. I call that a shit house lawyer.

 

 

statements to read the Atari development But you are more than willing now to twist my statement and make all kinds of conclusions,

right, which suits your preconcieved opinion about me, being the bad and evil Sony fanboy now, right?

 

No you just come across like you know more than folks with experience. You read the docs a day ago

and like Jbanes all of a sudden you are smarter than those with years of experience.

 

statements to read the Atari development

Well, what was that again with you don't question my knowledge and competence? Nice how a misquoted sentence from me quickly reverts your "discussion" style back to insults and fecal language.

 

Im talking about your statments about the jaguar. You need to keep readin those docs....

 

 

statements to read the Atari development Again, the only thing I sense is that I am making you nervous

 

LOL! now that's funny. the only thing you do is make me laugh with these pathetic replies.

 

statements to read the Atari development , and this triggers all kind of reactions coming from you.

 

People who question my experience when they have no room to....that will always trigger such a reaction.

 

statements to read the Atari development , You are too quick to call other people liars (also in the 32X discussion), thinking you are the king of the hill here.

 

I am quick to call LIARS liars. Not people in general. I tend to listen to people with MORE experience

than I. It seems you are'nt capable or teachable for that matter.

 

Also I just I know my credentials are for more valid on this Jaguar info than yours and Jbanes are.

Not necessarliy everyone elses. I would not be arguing with you at all if you were Scott Legrand

Or one of the guys from Eclipse....You and Jbanes NOT!!!...at least you have shown me NOTHING to

show otherwise other than shooting off your mouth. I at least concede to you about your Sony

knowledge, which I am at blind faith taking your word for, but I have to wonder why.

 

But since no one knows your credentials here, how can anything you say really be trustwrothy, outside of the common knowledge of the PS1 and saturn you can easily find on wiki...a USER edited definition site, BTW.

 

You know the same one Jbanes gets his 'smarts' from.

 

I'd take you more seriously if you only showed us all the experience you have in game development

and system hardware....my rep is well known and I have posted my credentials...You and Jbanes

avoid that question completely, however. I guessI cant blame you as you know how idiotic you would

look if you cant back up all this rant and spec reading with some actual experience.

 

You have essentaily taken a simple statement of mine... The Jag has not been exhausted and can

out feature the PS1 in certain areas and have blown it all out of proportion. Now you aer trying to make

it sound like I am saying the Jag can do the same thing as the ps1. That is what has happened here.

[Gorf]

Again, now you are misreading my comment again. I did not say you do this now. This was an anticipation from me how your next answer might look. Which again, is a reference back to your previous statement:

 

Then you need to re-read what you wrote.

 

because you love to stress in your other posts how long you have coded the Jaguar, implying that no one besides yourself is able to judge this machine.

 

Yes i know you and Jbanes dont belive experience matters, but it does. I have it with the Jaguar

you and he does not. Again all this we be much more welcome to me if you were a more

knowledgeable and EXPERIENCED Jaguar coder....you are not..or at leat you wont anwser my

question of your credentials.....I cant say I blame you for not doing so...i'd be embarrased to do

so myself in your situation.

 

 

Well, technically, you know more than the docs, because you found out how to make the JUMP instruction work.

Now, you probably will twist this sentence from me into: "SEE, NOW HE SAYS I AM LYING ABOUT THE JUMP INSTRCUTION!!!".

 

This is weak! Really, really weak! Show me wher I said or implied this...oh yeah...yu can't.

It's sound moer like a defensive manuver to hide your obvious lack of experience and knowledge

about the Jaguar.

 

Stop looking into the mirror.

 

brilliant rebuttle..I at least admit to it...

 

Im not even wasting my time with the rest of this post as you just want to recycle the same attacks

and insults I have already answered....you win...im unknowledgable andI want to turn thr WHOLE

gaming world against every body well especially you and jbanes.

 

Yup...thats is....oh when you can make me shut up...you let me know.

[Gorf]

Hehe. Things never change around here. You guys really should visit the Lynx forum here at AA sometime. You might learn something. We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

 

This will change very quickly when someone enters your forum, deeply impressed with his knowledge about the Lynx, stating he is the only one able so far to unleash its power, and everyone who has a different picture of the Lynx is a liar and a fanboi...

 

 

Where have I done this....and you are a liar. I only said and I am way moe knowledgable than you.

At least the credentials you have posted so far say so..oh yeah, thats right you have'nt posted any.

 

Amazing what a word twister you are. those with eyes see You for what YOU are.

I at least say I have experience, yet you clain you are smarter with none.

[TailChao]

Hehe. Things never change around here. You guys really should visit the Lynx forum here at AA sometime. You might learn something. We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

 

This will change very quickly when someone enters your forum, deeply impressed with his knowledge about the Lynx, stating he is the only one able so far to unleash its power, and everyone who has a different picture of the Lynx is a liar and a fanboi...

 

We never post in fear of this happening . Last time it did we got someone claiming Lynx superiority over the Game Gear since it has a "Multiprocessing design like the Jaguar and 32-Bit sound" and something similar later on with the SNES/Genesis/TG-16. That didn't end well and we realized that it's useless to be fighting about opinions on the internet when, of course, none of us have the "correct" opinions anyway. Either that or we got hungry...