Jaguar vs. CD32?

[Gunstar]

Well, the Jag sure wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of the 32X or CD32... Thus why I said slightly. Maybe I should have said "the Jag is "comfortably" ahead of the 32X and CD32." But honestly, I've had a Jag and 32X for a long time and ya, the 32X's sound is kinda hurtin' compared to the Jag, but the graphics really aren't much different between the two, the Jag having the edge of course. But, they are definitely comparable.

Dude, color wise the 32X has nothing on the Jag lol . I think the closest to the full color the Jag could do the 32X got was with Kolabri (which is a beautiful looking game.. unfortunately it didn't play as well )

 

Kolabri looks the part, but it's due to the artist, not the technology.

 

 

Blow the graphics up a little, and it's still using Genesis coloring tricks.

Definately. If you are using a standard TV, and the fact that the 32X doesn't even have S-video capablility, so one has to settle for composite, it's very easy to hide color tricks from a limited color palatte as they seem to blend together better on the low-res standard TV screen. But I have my 32X hooked up via RGB to a Commodore monitor, effectively giving it as good or better than component quality, almost VGA. The point being, that on my Commodore monitor all those color pixels are very sharp and Kolibri doesn't look nearly as "high-color" as on composite TV. Those tricks to make it look like more colors don't work on superior RGB input. It looks, at best, to be equivelant to 256 color graphics on the RGB monitor, with a lot of the color tile effects showing up plainly.

[Gunstar]

Well, the Jag sure wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of the 32X or CD32... Thus why I said slightly. Maybe I should have said "the Jag is "comfortably" ahead of the 32X and CD32." But honestly, I've had a Jag and 32X for a long time and ya, the 32X's sound is kinda hurtin' compared to the Jag, but the graphics really aren't much different between the two, the Jag having the edge of course. But, they are definitely comparable.

Dude, color wise the 32X has nothing on the Jag lol . I think the closest to the full color the Jag could do the 32X got was with Kolabri (which is a beautiful looking game.. unfortunately it didn't play as well )

 

Kolabri looks the part, but it's due to the artist, not the technology.

 

 

Blow the graphics up a little, and it's still using Genesis coloring tricks.

 

Hence the drawback of mixing the two generations. You are only as good as your slowest part.

You'll get a definite increase but it could have been better. Much better.

 

They should have just released the Neptune with a little redesign and then they

could have been able to get the throughput of the Jaguar. The bus is permanently

clogged by the must use 16 bit 68k bus. The 68k can be completely disabled in the

Jaguar. Not the case with the 32x as that is still the central processing unit . Im

pretty sure that is the case in this design. I could be wrong here but its not likely.

I'll have to look at the signals on the Sega cart port. I'll report shortly.

 

The 2 sh2's are being used as software base renderers. These ARE the same monsters

in the Saturn. You can see the difference even with the Saturns bottlenecks that the sh-2's

were wasted on the 32x. The Tom and Jerry was wasted on the Jaguar design because

of its 68k. Although it is saved by the fact that any one of the 3 general purpose processors

can take over the system, so you can completely blow off the 68k which alone greatly

increases sysetm perfomance. The trouble once again is with using the 68k Jag might as

well be a 32x and less in a lot of cases...hence the lousy titles.

And not only does the 68K HAVE to be used in the Genesis/32X, unlike the Jaguar, but the Genesis 68k is running at about half the speed of the Jaguar's 68K; ~7-8MHz compared to ~13-14MHz. At least the Jaguar has a 64-bit buss that some of the processor can use fully, and those that can only use 16-bits of the buss are still running twice as fast as the Genesis/32X who's chips, including the RISCs, are stuck using a 16-bit buss not matter what. There's no way the 32X could compete with the Jaguar, if you got the same incredible programming team doing the same game on both consoles, making the most of both systems, the Jaguar would win hands down by a large margin.

[Gunstar]

Well, the Jag sure wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of the 32X or CD32... Thus why I said slightly. Maybe I should have said "the Jag is "comfortably" ahead of the 32X and CD32." But honestly, I've had a Jag and 32X for a long time and ya, the 32X's sound is kinda hurtin' compared to the Jag, but the graphics really aren't much different between the two, the Jag having the edge of course. But, they are definitely comparable.

Dude, color wise the 32X has nothing on the Jag lol . I think the closest to the full color the Jag could do the 32X got was with Kolabri (which is a beautiful looking game.. unfortunately it didn't play as well )

 

Kolabri looks the part, but it's due to the artist, not the technology.

 

 

Blow the graphics up a little, and it's still using Genesis coloring tricks.

 

Hence the drawback of mixing the two generations. You are only as good as your slowest part.

You'll get a definite increase but it could have been better. Much better.

 

They should have just released the Neptune with a little redesign and then they

could have been able to get the throughput of the Jaguar. The bus is permanently

clogged by the must use 16 bit 68k bus. The 68k can be completely disabled in the

Jaguar. Not the case with the 32x as that is still the central processing unit . Im

pretty sure that is the case in this design. I could be wrong here but its not likely.

I'll have to look at the signals on the Sega cart port. I'll report shortly.

 

The 2 sh2's are being used as software base renderers. These ARE the same monsters

in the Saturn. You can see the difference even with the Saturns bottlenecks that the sh-2's

were wasted on the 32x. The Tom and Jerry was wasted on the Jaguar design because

of its 68k. Although it is saved by the fact that any one of the 3 general purpose processors

can take over the system, so you can completely blow off the 68k which alone greatly

increases sysetm perfomance. The trouble once again is with using the 68k Jag might as

well be a 32x and less in a lot of cases...hence the lousy titles.

And not only does the 68K HAVE to be used in the Genesis/32X, unlike the Jaguar, but the Genesis 68k is running at about half the speed of the Jaguar's 68K; ~7-8MHz compared to ~13-14MHz. At least the Jaguar has a 64-bit buss that some of the processor can use fully, and those that can only use 16-bits of the buss are still running twice as fast as the Genesis/32X who's chips, including the RISCs, are stuck using a 16-bit buss not matter what. There's no way the 32X could compete with the Jaguar, if you got the same incredible programming team doing the same game on both consoles, making the most of both systems, the Jaguar would win hands down by a large margin.

 

If they had forgotten the 32X add-on and made a Neptune from the start, with the 32X's RISCs, on a 32-bit buss and a faster 13-16+MHz 68K similair to the Jag's, then it would be much more comparible in power.

[Gunstar]

The CD-32 doesn't have an RGB out port, only composite, RF, and S-video. The SX-1/SX-32 expansions add an RGB port, so it's probably possible to rig up an RGB port from the expansion slot if one knows what they are doing.

You can find the CD32 expansion port pinout over here. It looks like all the video signals are present, so rigging up an RGB port should be straight forward as long as you know a bit about electronics.

 

All of the CD32 expansion modules are bloody expensive, so if all you want is an RGB port, they're not really a good idea.

 

FWIW, most Commodore 1084 monitors can handle PAL signals from a CD-32 through composite video, probably S-video too if you have a adapter to turn the S-video cable to seperate luma-chroma RCA cables for the monitor's sake.

Well, I found out the hard way that my 1084S certainly does NOT handle a PAL signal through composite or S-Video! The picture is stable, but only in black and white. I tried one of the cheap NTSC/PAL converters that show up on eBay, but the picture quality was absolutely terrible (honestly, it's better in black and white than in the horribly smeary, blurry mess that the converter puts out). In the end, I went out and bought an NTSC system from China... works much better.

 

As far as I know, all 1084S's will handle a 50Hz signal, but I don't think any of the NTSC ones will handle a PAL color signal, which is really the deal-breaker here. If someone can prove me wrong, I'd love to see it.

 

Of course, hooking up via RGB solves all the problems, since the system no longer has to encode the color signal at all.

 

I know you can force the system to ntsc setting with the amiga mouse, but that only works for ntsc compatible games.

One problem here is that you can't really change between PAL and NTSC the way everyone seems to think you can. When you use the boot menu to "NTSC", all it does is set things for 60Hz output, but leaves the color signal in PAL format. Unfortunately, this means that unless your display can handle a PAL color signal, you're basically screwed. On the plus side, if you have an NTSC system and you force it into PAL mode, you get 50Hz with NTSC color format, which works nicely for us North Americans.

 

Oh, and there are a LOT of games that don't work right unless you're set to 50Hz. And it's not always a matter of the game just not booting... a lot of them will happily display their title screen, and then crash when you go to start a game! I've also found at least one game (F17 Challenge) that will ONLY work on a PAL system in 50Hz mode (Seriously, I tried everything, and nothing else worked for me! The icing on the cake is that the game actually provides a built-in option for PAL or NTSC video modes, but it doesn't seem to help at all!). I love the CD32, but the PAL/NTSC issues are downright nasty.

 

--Zero

 

If your trying to hook a full PAL system/console then you are right. I use my 1084s and SC1224 monitors with NTSC computers playing PAL games and they work fine, with RGB. I also use my 1084s with my Atari 1200XL, using S-video, with PAL games and it works fine, though the 1200XL is modded with a PAL Antic for 50Hz refresh rate, and still has the NTSC GTIA to display color. The only thing I have to do is adjust the tint a bit and the color is close enough to original PAL color that it works perfectly fine. In any case, If you do the RGB MOD to the CD32, there should be no problem at all playing PAL CD32 games on the 1084s with RGB.

[Gunstar]

--Zero

 

 

The real questions....

 

Do you like the system?

Do you like the games?

 

How much do you think one would have to invest starting

from scratch to make it worth while collecting for it?

 

Also,I dont remember if this was answered already but

can you use it as an Amiga computer system at all?

 

That would be cool if you could. Nothing like using the actual console to dev on.

(Cross compilers can really be a pain in the beealls.)

Exactly.

Do I like the games? Yes, most of them.

Do I like the system? I must if I like the games.

Can it be turned into a full Amiga? YES.

Initial investment? about $100 for a CD32 judging by current E-bay auctions, then it's a matter of the games for me, I can do the RGB mod, and use my 1084s monitor. So regardless, I think I'll get the CD32 eventually, but mainly for the FPS and polygon games, all the others I already have most to play on my Mega STE.

[sd32]

Gunstar, the RGB mod is beyond my abilities, but i found an adapter that converts from supervideo to rgb, so that i can connect my cd32 to the rgb monitor, i guess that wouldnt work, right? (hope it does).

[Gunstar]

Gunstar, the RGB mod is beyond my abilities, but i found an adapter that converts from supervideo to rgb, so that i can connect my cd32 to the rgb monitor, i guess that wouldnt work, right? (hope it does).

It may work, but there's no way to get a clean RGB signal out of S-video which has already combined all three base colors into one color signal, so what you will probably end up with is a picture that is no better, or maybe even worse than S-video; it may even look like composite. What the adapter must be doing is sending the combined color signal to all three; red, green and blue and each of those inputs uses what it needs and disregards the rest, but this will definately cause signal degridation, so you won't have a picture that's as good as true RGB. If you are doing it for a better picture than S-video on a TV, I doubt you'll get it, it will most likely be worse. If you are doing it becuase the RGB monitor is all you have to use the CD32 with, then it will get the job done, just don't be suprised if your picture on your RGB monitor is worse than S-video on your TV.

 

On the other hand, there's always a chance that this is some amazing adapter that has an incredible circuit inside that is capable of seperating the RGB out of the combined color signal without any or very little degridation and that you will get a picture that's at least better than S-video...my only experience with an signal/plug changing adapter is an inline composite-to-Svideo adapter that's available from RadioShack for about $20. And depending on the video source, it can be very impressive. I use it for my VCR and Laserdisc players to hook them into my S-video port on my TV, and with them it works great; the picture is so close to true S-video quality with my VCR/LD players that if I didn't know better, I'd think it was straight S-video, it effectively stops 99% of the dot-crawl effect of composite and is definately a sharper more vibrant picture. But, when I tried to use it with my Sega genesis/32X/SegaCD combo, even though it's going into my TV's S-video, it still looks exactly like a composite picture, and in fact, while genesis and 32x games are in full color, the sega CD only shows B/W through the adapter! I've tried other consoles and it varies from machine to machine, it seems to totally depend on the quality of the signal coming out of the device. The better quality video circuit in the device being used with the comp-to-Svideo adapter, the better the end result. It's still a very useful device for me, even if the picture from the composite-only device I'm using isn't improved becuase my TV has only one video input channel, so I can only use composite OR S-video, not both, so with an array of devices that have S-video and/or composite out, I can still use them all through my S-video input, so I don't have to plug and unplug the video inputs on my TV (with a video/s-video switch boxes to choose the device).

Edited August 1, 2007 by Gunstar

[Ze_ro]

Gunstar, the RGB mod is beyond my abilities, but i found an adapter that converts from supervideo to rgb, so that i can connect my cd32 to the rgb monitor, i guess that wouldnt work, right? (hope it does).

Make sure you do some research into how the device works... specifically whether or not it can handle a PAL color signal. If it's not a European device, there's a good chance it'll only handle NTSC, and you'll end up with a black and white picture in the end. Also, what kind of connector does it use? The RGB connector on the 1084S wasn't really used on anything else to my knowledge, so if this adapter ends in a SCART plug, you'll still need yet another converter before you can really hook it to the 1084S.

 

In any case, If you do the RGB MOD to the CD32, there should be no problem at all playing PAL CD32 games on the 1084s with RGB.

True enough. However, 1084S's are getting tougher and tougher to find... those of us who already have one are in the clear, but I think it's a bit much to expect someone to invest in a whole other display primarily for the CD32. Also, performing an RGB mod is beyond the abilities of most people (even hardcore video game collectors). Things like this make the system hard to recommend to people unless they already have a suitable TV/monitor.

 

It would be nice to see someone design a scandoubler/flickerfixer device to plug into the CD32's expansion slot... something like that would let you hook it to a VGA monitor and solve everything much more easily.

 

--Zero

[Gorf]

It would be nice to see someone design a scandoubler/flickerfixer device to plug into the CD32's expansion slot... something like that would let you hook it to a VGA monitor and solve everything much more easily.

 

I'm suprised there isnt a device or even a market for that. Even if it is a tested and tried

homebrew/hobbiest deal, Im willing to bet something to do exactly what sd32 is looking

to do.

[sd32]

Its been 3 years since i bought the CD32, so i am trying anything to get it to work in color. Ill buy that RGB monitor (i know of a cheap one in my city) and the adapter, who knows, like Gunstar says, it might just work. If not, well... thanks for your advices guys, i apreciate.

[Gorf]

Its been 3 years since i bought the CD32, so i am trying anything to get it to work in color. Ill buy that RGB monitor (i know of a cheap one in my city) and the adapter, who knows, like Gunstar says, it might just work. If not, well... thanks for your advices guys, i apreciate.

 

 

Have you tried doing searches for the type of device you are looking for?

[sd32]

Yeah, Gorf, but the ones i found and bought were of very bad video quality to the point of rather playing the games in black and white. Then again, i am not very good with the search engines.

[Gorf]

Yeah, Gorf, but the ones i found and bought were of very bad video quality to the point of rather playing the games in black and white. Then again, i am not very good with the search engines.

 

 

Perhaps you need a visit to a cd32 forum?

[kevincal]

Well, the Jag sure wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of the 32X or CD32... Thus why I said slightly. Maybe I should have said "the Jag is "comfortably" ahead of the 32X and CD32." But honestly, I've had a Jag and 32X for a long time and ya, the 32X's sound is kinda hurtin' compared to the Jag, but the graphics really aren't much different between the two, the Jag having the edge of course. But, they are definitely comparable.

Dude, color wise the 32X has nothing on the Jag lol . I think the closest to the full color the Jag could do the 32X got was with Kolabri (which is a beautiful looking game.. unfortunately it didn't play as well )

 

Kolabri looks the part, but it's due to the artist, not the technology.

 

 

Blow the graphics up a little, and it's still using Genesis coloring tricks.

 

Hence the drawback of mixing the two generations. You are only as good as your slowest part.

You'll get a definite increase but it could have been better. Much better.

 

They should have just released the Neptune with a little redesign and then they

could have been able to get the throughput of the Jaguar. The bus is permanently

clogged by the must use 16 bit 68k bus. The 68k can be completely disabled in the

Jaguar. Not the case with the 32x as that is still the central processing unit . Im

pretty sure that is the case in this design. I could be wrong here but its not likely.

I'll have to look at the signals on the Sega cart port. I'll report shortly.

 

The 2 sh2's are being used as software base renderers. These ARE the same monsters

in the Saturn. You can see the difference even with the Saturns bottlenecks that the sh-2's

were wasted on the 32x. The Tom and Jerry was wasted on the Jaguar design because

of its 68k. Although it is saved by the fact that any one of the 3 general purpose processors

can take over the system, so you can completely blow off the 68k which alone greatly

increases sysetm perfomance. The trouble once again is with using the 68k Jag might as

well be a 32x and less in a lot of cases...hence the lousy titles.

And not only does the 68K HAVE to be used in the Genesis/32X, unlike the Jaguar, but the Genesis 68k is running at about half the speed of the Jaguar's 68K; ~7-8MHz compared to ~13-14MHz. At least the Jaguar has a 64-bit buss that some of the processor can use fully, and those that can only use 16-bits of the buss are still running twice as fast as the Genesis/32X who's chips, including the RISCs, are stuck using a 16-bit buss not matter what. There's no way the 32X could compete with the Jaguar, if you got the same incredible programming team doing the same game on both consoles, making the most of both systems, the Jaguar would win hands down by a large margin.

 

But that's the sad reality isn't it?...the Jag was/is capable of so much, but it was never fully utilized and probably never will be; By a nice, big, high budget team of programmers... A poor, pretty girl will look good if she does her makeup herself, but she'll look like a supermodel if she could afford a team of makeup artists to fix her up for hours everyday. It is what it is...

Edited August 2, 2007 by kevincal

[Ze_ro]

It would be nice to see someone design a scandoubler/flickerfixer device to plug into the CD32's expansion slot... something like that would let you hook it to a VGA monitor and solve everything much more easily.

I'm suprised there isnt a device or even a market for that. Even if it is a tested and tried homebrew/hobbiest deal, Im willing to bet something to do exactly what sd32 is looking to do.

Well, the CD32 is relatively unpopular, so there's not much of a market for it... but if you could manage to manufacture an affordable scandoubler/flickerfixer that hooked to an Amiga RGB port, there are MANY people in the Amiga community that would be lining up to buy one. One of the things that I love about my Amiga 3000 is the ability to hook it to any random VGA monitor.

 

--Zero

[Gorf]

It would be nice to see someone design a scandoubler/flickerfixer device to plug into the CD32's expansion slot... something like that would let you hook it to a VGA monitor and solve everything much more easily.

I'm suprised there isnt a device or even a market for that. Even if it is a tested and tried homebrew/hobbiest deal, Im willing to bet something to do exactly what sd32 is looking to do.

Well, the CD32 is relatively unpopular, so there's not much of a market for it... but if you could manage to manufacture an affordable scandoubler/flickerfixer that hooked to an Amiga RGB port, there are MANY people in the Amiga community that would be lining up to buy one. One of the things that I love about my Amiga 3000 is the ability to hook it to any random VGA monitor.

 

--Zero

 

 

If I only had the time, id be making a lot of things for a lot of systems...

[sd32]

If I only had the time, id be making a lot of things for a lot of systems...

Think about it, Gorf (the coder) goes universal , coming soon to a system near you

I can only wish that every console had fans as good as the Jaguar has. Its not about the quantity, but the quality.

[Gorf]

If I only had the time, id be making a lot of things for a lot of systems...

Think about it, Gorf (the coder) goes universal , coming soon to a system near you

I can only wish that every console had fans as good as the Jaguar has. Its not about the quantity, but the quality.

 

 

hehe....some think we are psycotic(like they are'nt....or something.) Im also about

the same amount of experience in electronics as coding.

[fishsandwich]

So what your are saying is the games work but the screen rolls? OR the games just don't work at all?

 

All of the games work... just about half of them are unplayable due to the rolling screen,

[Gorf]

So what your are saying is the games work but the screen rolls? OR the games just don't work at all?

 

All of the games work... just about half of them are unplayable due to the rolling screen,

 

 

Hmmm....can you adjust the horizontal scrolling via the monitor?

If you want to open the monitor, there are usually trim pots in

there you can mess with but you should sure you know a little

about what your turning. If you want to dedicate a certain monitor

to it, you might be able to adjust the 'non user' horizontal enough

to stop it....I dont really know this as I've never dealt with PAL but

Im actually wondering if this could help. Otherwise a piece of hardware

will be necessary.

 

Ok...so you CD32 guys are loooking for a way to play games on

a non pal monitor? I'll do some asking around.

 

 

Just to be clear we are trying to go from the PAL output of the Amiga to

an NTSC Atari ST or similar monitor?

 

Or

 

Are we are trying to go from the NTSC output of the Amiga to

an PAL monitor?

Edited August 3, 2007 by Gorf

[sd32]

Well, i am trying to go from the PAL output of the Amiga to

an NTSC monitor?

I have asked around on some CD32 forums, they have told me to get a Pal Commodore monitor, wich are very expensive to ship from Europe to Mexico, or to buy a Pal to NTSC converter, i bought 2 converters and they were crap.

[Gorf]

Well, i am trying to go from the PAL output of the Amiga to

an NTSC monitor?

I have asked around on some CD32 forums, they have told me to get a Pal Commodore monitor, wich are very expensive to ship from Europe to Mexico, or to buy a Pal to NTSC converter, i bought 2 converters and they were crap.

 

I hear the same...my guess is there aer excellent quality versions but are probably astronomical in price.

Perhaps a really powerful FPGA based circuit could fix the cost issue. Im still learning my way around VHDL

so I would not expect anything lie that any time soon. Besides, the first project I plan to take on is

completing Oberon and Puck.

[NightSprinter]

That's really wierd, honestly. I have a PAL A1200, and all I had to do was just turn the V-Hold dial slightly to get the picture to stabilize through the RGB output.

[cdoty]

For 2D games there are a couple to compare directly to the Jaguar, Cannon Fodder and Power Drive ("RALLY" on the Jaguar). Power Drive Rally is clearly superior to Power Drive on the CD32, though Cannon Fodder looks closer, but doesn't seem to have the color depth of the Jaguar version.

 

The Jaguar version of Cannon Fodder is probably the best version, simply because it doesn't have any load times. The only other version that doesn't have any load times is the PAL Genesis version. The CD32 version isn't as bad as the floppy Amiga versions, but the load times seem long.

[cdoty]

Also,I dont remember if this was answered already but

can you use it as an Amiga computer system at all?

 

That would be cool if you could. Nothing like using the actual console to dev on.

(Cross compilers can really be a pain in the beealls.)

 

The CD32 can be 'upgraded' to a Amiga 1200 type system. The CDTV can function as a 1 MB Amiga 500 with an external floppy and keyboard.

 

GCC (or vbcc) cross compiler for the CD32 (or any Workbench 2.0 Amiga) is easy to find, and pretty easy to use. Creating a CD for the CD32/CDTV requires using WinUAE (and the CD32 devkit), but isn't too hard to do.

 

I prefer the speed of Windows to using the Amiga. Editing is also much easier on Windows.