So who wants what?

[Gorf]

Internal ram is expensive..

ROM is way cheaper though, which is why some was supplied with predefined textures..

The blitter can texture from main memory - but it's much slower ( though still faster than the original jaguar )

 

 

The 8k internal was smart even if expensive and it WOULD bitch slap the PSX.

The double buffered blitter command is enough alone to greatly increase the

throughput of commands being fed to the blitter. The cheap DRAM is not helping

the fact that it is slower externally. External SRAM would run MUCH faster. Yeah

I know expensive.

[SebRmv]

The double buffered blitter command is enough alone to greatly increase the

throughput of commands being fed to the blitter.

 

I have not really investigated the blitter yet but is it true that blitter commands are

double buffered? Which registers are concerned?

 

Thanks

[Gorf]

The double buffered blitter command is enough alone to greatly increase the

throughput of commands being fed to the blitter.

 

I have not really investigated the blitter yet but is it true that blitter commands are

double buffered? Which registers are concerned?

 

Thanks

 

 

The entire register bank of the blitter is double buffered in the Oberon and

it is also 64 bit wider that TOM....yes 128 bits. Also keep in mind there are

new registers in the blitter for one command triangle and bi-linear filtering.

Edited February 1, 2008 by Gorf

[Gorf]

Plus, you have no idea how powerful nor advanced the Jag2's polygon pipe actually is. To say 'to get to PSX levels" is an insult to the chipset. Nor do you know how well it can scale, do you? Trust me, you will like the results.

you have no idea how powerful the jagcf dsp is.

Plus, I really doubt to see a working jag2 someday...

 

 

Sounds more like that is what you hope.Oberon IS finished BTW. Your DSP outside the cart will

allow some advantage but you still have to get what it does to the rest of the Jaguar. You will not

be transfering data very swiftly over that cart bus. You will have serious issues dealing with it. Im

betting it's part of the delay. Oh and the DSP in the CF offers no compatibility and extra power that

would help a Jaguar game. The fully backward compatible Oberon however does.

[downix]

Plus, you have no idea how powerful nor advanced the Jag2's polygon pipe actually is. To say 'to get to PSX levels" is an insult to the chipset. Nor do you know how well it can scale, do you? Trust me, you will like the results.

you have no idea how powerful the jagcf dsp is.

Plus, I really doubt to see a working jag2 someday...

 

 

Sounds more like that is what you hope.Oberon IS finished BTW. Your DSP outside the cart will

allow some advantage but you still have to get what it does to the rest of the Jaguar. You will not

be transfering data very swiftly over that cart bus. You will have serious issues dealing with it. Im

betting it's part of the delay. Oh and the DSP in the CF offers no compatibility and extra power that

would help a Jaguar game. The fully backward compatible Oberon however does.

Hey now, relax. We don't know the JagCF's DSPs capability. If they put it on a local loop and just buffered it through the cart, could do pretty decent performance. And while yes, it is finished, it still needs bugfixing.

[Pocket]

I'm sure you can do something very interesting with this Jag II project. I have always wondered what it could have been

 

My only concern is not about technical skills or how powerfull the device would be, but rather about the legal stuff, Atari still owns the rights about it, maybe you should look after this before developing the cat II further, it would be really a shame to finish this project and never beeing able to release/sale it.

[downix]

I'm sure you can do something very interesting with this Jag II project. I have always wondered what it could have been

 

My only concern is not about technical skills or how powerfull the device would be, but rather about the legal stuff, Atari still owns the rights about it, maybe you should look after this before developing the cat II further, it would be really a shame to finish this project and never beeing able to release/sale it.

Legally they don't. Hasbro released all rights to the Jaguar hardware into the PD, don't forget. But it's a rebuilding anyways, all new code. Last time I checked, there were no schematics for the Oberon GPU, only netlists and some very hideous Verilog.

[Pocket]

I'm sure you can do something very interesting with this Jag II project. I have always wondered what it could have been

 

My only concern is not about technical skills or how powerfull the device would be, but rather about the legal stuff, Atari still owns the rights about it, maybe you should look after this before developing the cat II further, it would be really a shame to finish this project and never beeing able to release/sale it.

 

Legally they don't. Hasbro released all rights to the Jaguar hardware into the PD, don't forget. But it's a rebuilding anyways, all new code. Last time I checked, there were no schematics for the Oberon GPU, only netlists and some very hideous Verilog.

 

 

In fact, Atari/Hasbro released nothing concerning the Jaguar II technology/name/patents/code, etc, people never read carefully the statement :

 

http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/archives/HasbroRights.html

Edited February 1, 2008 by Pocket

[downix]

I'm sure you can do something very interesting with this Jag II project. I have always wondered what it could have been

 

My only concern is not about technical skills or how powerfull the device would be, but rather about the legal stuff, Atari still owns the rights about it, maybe you should look after this before developing the cat II further, it would be really a shame to finish this project and never beeing able to release/sale it.

 

Legally they don't. Hasbro released all rights to the Jaguar hardware into the PD, don't forget. But it's a rebuilding anyways, all new code. Last time I checked, there were no schematics for the Oberon GPU, only netlists and some very hideous Verilog.

 

 

In fact, Atari/Hasbro released nothing concerning the Jaguar II technology/name/patents/code, etc, people never read carefully the statement :

 

http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/archives/HasbroRights.html

irrelevent in any case. Since it is new code, not covered under copyright. Since there are no patents on the technology, the only method Atari would have left to claim trade secret, but that has already been tried and failed in court (See AMD vs Intel).

[Gorf]

irrelevent in any case. Since it is new code, not covered under copyright. Since there are no patents on the technology, the only method Atari would have left to claim trade secret, but that has already been tried and failed in court (See AMD vs Intel).

 

 

A simple search will show that Oberon and Jag II were never even applied for patent.

The closest protection Atari has is the Jaguar tech and they gave that away. Oh, compatible

does not mean IP infringment, btw.

[Pocket]

Of course compatible doesn't mean IP infringment.

 

I don't know the details, but when you say the Jag II project is a combination of old (existing) stuff + new stuff (your work), it means you still use a part of what Atari created ?

[downix]

Of course compatible doesn't mean IP infringment.

 

I don't know the details, but when you say the Jag II project is a combination of old (existing) stuff + new stuff (your work), it means you still use a part of what Atari created ?

As of right now, all it is, is a new GPU (untested at that) which happens to be backwards compatible with the existing Tom architecture. Frankly, there isn't any old stuff to use, unless I wanted to fabricate a buggy Oberon, which is not anybodys intention.

 

Once the GPU is tested, onto the DSP, which is a much simpler beast to handle by and far.

 

From there, who knows, but a Jag II of some sort might be the final step. We shall see once I get this whole thing finished and in FPGA.

Edited February 1, 2008 by downix

[Gorf]

Of course compatible doesn't mean IP infringment.

 

I don't know the details, but when you say the Jag II project is a combination of old (existing) stuff + new stuff (your work), it means you still use a part of what Atari created ?

 

 

Knowing me and who I am you should know better than anyone else, nothing illegal

will be taking place with what will be Jaguar II.

[Pocket]

Of course compatible doesn't mean IP infringment.

 

I don't know the details, but when you say the Jag II project is a combination of old (existing) stuff + new stuff (your work), it means you still use a part of what Atari created ?

As of right now, all it is, is a new GPU (untested at that) which happens to be backwards compatible with the existing Tom architecture. Frankly, there isn't any old stuff to use, unless I wanted to fabricate a buggy Oberon, which is not anybodys intention.

 

Once the GPU is tested, onto the DSP, which is a much simpler beast to handle by and far.

 

From there, who knows, but a Jag II of some sort might be the final step. We shall see once I get this whole thing finished and in FPGA.

 

I'm not sure I understand correctly, so this Jag II has nothing from the Jag II prototype we know ?

[downix]

Of course compatible doesn't mean IP infringment.

 

I don't know the details, but when you say the Jag II project is a combination of old (existing) stuff + new stuff (your work), it means you still use a part of what Atari created ?

As of right now, all it is, is a new GPU (untested at that) which happens to be backwards compatible with the existing Tom architecture. Frankly, there isn't any old stuff to use, unless I wanted to fabricate a buggy Oberon, which is not anybodys intention.

 

Once the GPU is tested, onto the DSP, which is a much simpler beast to handle by and far.

 

From there, who knows, but a Jag II of some sort might be the final step. We shall see once I get this whole thing finished and in FPGA.

 

I'm not sure I understand correctly, so this Jag II has nothing from the Jag II prototype we know ?

There never was a full Jag II prototype, only a prototype for testing out their own form of Oberon. The rest of the system was a classic Jaguar for all intents and purposes. Since Oberon is what has been cloned, and the rest of the system needs to be synthesized, there is nothing from the existing Oberon test platform within the new finalized product. Chips have been consolidated (no external m68k anymore for example), costs reduced, performance improved.

[Gorf]

More importantly, Curt Vendel bought everything(90% of it, Jay smith has the the other 10%)

of Atari when Sam and the boys bailed(or from Hasbro or whomever.) I believe that is abandoment

and with that Curt and Jay Smith probably are the boss of whatever was in that and I know those

nets are FREELY posted on Curt's Atari Museum. My guess is Curt would LOVE to see a super duper

JagII compatible machine himself, being the very dedicated Atari fan that he is. In fact, Im quite

sure of it.

[Pocket]

Because he bought this from X or Y doesn't mean the stuff is free of use, you know. That's the same story with prototypes, etc.

[Gorf]

Because he bought this from X or Y doesn't mean the stuff is free of use, you know. That's the same story with prototypes, etc.

 

 

I have been told otherwise by legal professionals. I do not know how the laws work over there

but that is how it works here...from what I understand. The point being is that whatever it takes,

we'll do what is necessary to be assured not to step on anyone's rights. I've already had my fair

share of rights issue settlements, thank you very much.

 

In fact, if we were to get something working, Im sure Curt woud'nt be the only one interested in it.

However, for now, Jag II is a hobby project that I am not even able to work on as I am tryng to finish

touch the contract work.

 

Any talks about rights at this point, is premature at best. I'd be happy to see the thing running in

a simulator and be satisfied. This is for fun. If it becomes something bigger all necessary steps to

make it happen properly, will be taken. Otherwise it is'nt meant to be. NEXT!

[Pocket]

Understood

[SebRmv]

The double buffered blitter command is enough alone to greatly increase the

throughput of commands being fed to the blitter.

 

I have not really investigated the blitter yet but is it true that blitter commands are

double buffered? Which registers are concerned?

 

Thanks

 

 

The entire register bank of the blitter is double buffered in the Oberon and

it is also 64 bit wider that TOM....yes 128 bits. Also keep in mind there are

new registers in the blitter for one command triangle and bi-linear filtering.

 

Ok. You are talking about the Jaguar 2, not the Jaguar, aren't you?

[SebRmv]

So, when re-reading carefully this thread, we learn that TWO people are working (together?) on Jaguar 2: Gorf and downix?

Have I correctly understood?

Edited February 1, 2008 by SebRmv

[downix]

So, when re-reading carefully this thread, we learn that TWO people are working (together?) on Jaguar 2: Gorf and downix?

Have I correctly understood?

You're a few people short... but most of them aren't Atari-folk.

[SebRmv]

So, when re-reading carefully this thread, we learn that TWO people are working (together?) on Jaguar 2: Gorf and downix?

Have I correctly understood?

You're a few people short... but most of them aren't Atari-folk.

 

of course, I should have added "at least"

 

so you are working together with Gorf?

[BuddyBuddies]

So, when re-reading carefully this thread, we learn that TWO people are working (together?) on Jaguar 2: Gorf and downix?

Have I correctly understood?

You're a few people short... but most of them aren't Atari-folk.

 

of course, I should have added "at least"

 

so you are working together with Gorf?

[downix]

So, when re-reading carefully this thread, we learn that TWO people are working (together?) on Jaguar 2: Gorf and downix?

Have I correctly understood?

You're a few people short... but most of them aren't Atari-folk.

 

of course, I should have added "at least"

 

so you are working together with Gorf?

Gorfs offered some technical insights, and I've helped validate some and disproven others of his theories. But the grunt work, no. However, I am a firm believer in cooperation, and will listen to anyone, save if you're a negative ninny who bemoans that it can't be done, because gosh-darnit, it can be done, and it will be done!

Edited February 1, 2008 by downix