So who wants what?

[Fadest]

On a Falcon CT60, the 60 replace the 030, there is som TTram added (with SDram support), but the graphic chip (VIDEL) is the main issue to performance boost. The 060 add some performance to the main processing, but the Falcon stil have his weakness (and I really loved my Falcon, so this is not a criticism). I would say than a CT1 is more in the spirit of the Falcon, a CT60 would be more the first step to a new computer (you just have to add a better graphic card - like PowePC boards were a first step to new cAmiga computer based on PPC). A Falcon CT60 is still a Falcon, an enhanced Falcon if you want.

 

On a Jag + JagCF, there will still be the 68k as 'main' processor, which should shut up after boot and give hand to dedicated coprocessor, this will be the new DSP, instead (or in conjunction with) of the existing ones, and extra RAM (like on CT60 board). A Jag + Jag CF is still a Jag, an enhanced Jag if you want. This is more like Nintendo and Sega extra chips added in some cartridges on Super Famicom and GEnesis, but more versatile.

When I play Virtua Racing on my Megadrive (Genesis) or Starfox on my SNES (Super Famicom), I'm playing a Genesis or Super Famciom game...

[Orion_]

right, I see the JagCF just like a Genesis 32x adaptator

[saboteur]

I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but.....

 

Release the CF with the copy protection and i'll buy it today. Add the DSP and I don't want it.

 

If I wanted a new console i'd buy one.

 

The CF has the potential to really aid homebrew development and push jaguar programming forward, the DSP will just confuse the issue and probably kill of jaguar homebrew.

 

I'll get me coat.

[Fadest]

I don't really see the point.

It seems that there is a need for an FPGA in the Jag CF in order to manage CF access, Ram access...

If there is plenty of space left in the FPGA, why not using it to add somme extra features : ie the new DSP ?

 

This is an hobbyist project, primary intended for fun. If I was skilled enough (I only made a small introduction to electronic during my studies), I would love to play with this kind of thing (FPGA) and create my own processor. Then, if there is a possibility to mix a personnal project with something useful to other, let's go... This is what SCPCD is doing in my opinion.

[Pocket]

yes, but, see what you can do with a ct60 on a falcon, it's so much better

 

We have already discussed this, most of the anti-CF guys never saw a Falcon + CT 60 running in real.

I have. I've also seen a Penetrator card on an Amiga. (duo PPro-200's inside a 7Mhz Amiga) I've even designed such accelerators (have a SPARC for Amiga design).

 

As I have designed such systems before, I have a pretty good idea as to what one can get from them.

 

As Zero already confirmed, you cannot master the cartridge slot without the loss of a lot of performance, so a CT60 style accelerator will not be as effective. Did not say it wouldn't work, just not as effective as the CT60 is, nor as effective as a BlizzardPPC in an Amiga. But it would be a similar arrangement to my old Penetrator card, which did do a hell of a job.

 

Such a setup can deliver decent performance, but it would not be 1 system, it would in effect be two computers that happen to be connected, siamese like. I am curious as to which of the various DSP families was used for this as well.

 

If you have seen a Falcon running with a CT60 in real, you may have seen Quake running on it, at an impressive speed. The core Falcon could never do that.

 

What's the link with the Jag ? You said in another topic you could make a Quake running on Jag, and that you would only need more ram (I think you were talking about an Ram add on for the Jag). Then, port Quake for the core Jag and use only the additional ram from the CF. If I understood correctly how the Jag CF is designed, you can do that. And it opens a wide range of new possibilities

[Pocket]

yes, but, see what you can do with a ct60 on a falcon, it's so much better

 

We have already discussed this, most of the anti-CF guys never saw a Falcon + CT 60 running in real.

 

 

I know what they are and what they do. They at very least try to maintain the spirit of the machine.

The CF does this how?

 

Simple : by letting the choice to devs.

 

They can use it as a dev kit for the core Jag.

 

They can use it with only a selected new features from the CF (see my previous post with Quake)

 

They can use it to its full new power.

 

It is "à la carte". You have the choice, you can do whatever you want.

[Gorf]

yes, but, see what you can do with a ct60 on a falcon, it's so much better

 

Very different. The 060 add on is in the spirit of the Falcon030 and the St

line of machines. Jag CF completely changes the personality of the Jaguar.

I could add an SH4 to my 2600 and probably get a great game running, but

is it really a 2600 anymore?

I don't see why it change the personality, for me it's just like a ct60, new proc accelerated, and new connectivity stuff to get rid of the buggy jag hardware.

 

 

I happen to like the bugs in the Jaguar...I dont want to turn it into something OTHER than

a Jaguar to write games for it....it can play games as it is and it can do better than it has.

.....your DSP is not even code compatible with the GPU or DSP. It's not longer a Jaguar.

[Gorf]

Because the CT60 can master the system bus. The DSP cannot, it's a target for the main CPU to aim for. While yes, it can run local loops fast, you still have to go off-chip to actually DO something.,

 

 

"Good luck! You'll need it!"

[Gorf]

right, I see the JagCF just like a Genesis 32x adaptator

 

Exactly...a whole new machine...dont even try to tell me the 32X

was in the spirit of the Genny. The DSP in the CF will not operate

as a replacement other than a FULL replacement and therefore a

new console.

[Orion_]

.....your DSP is not even code compatible with the GPU or DSP. It's not longer a Jaguar.

of course, you can do so much better thing with this dsp that you will never do with gpu of the jaguar, AND by the way, as you can use the jaguar in the same time you use the CF, you can still write gpu/dsp code for the jaguar in addition

[Gorf]

yes, but, see what you can do with a ct60 on a falcon, it's so much better

 

We have already discussed this, most of the anti-CF guys never saw a Falcon + CT 60 running in real.

 

 

I know what they are and what they do. They at very least try to maintain the spirit of the machine.

The CF does this how?

 

Simple : by letting the choice to devs.

 

 

 

Then get a PC and use emulators.....this is nonsense. The CF is something else other than the Jaguar.

You can not have a foreign part added to the system and maintain its still a Jaguar. Not the way the CF is

set up. RAM alone would be one thing. All you guys are doing is handing the devlopers MORE work having

to learn a new processor. Again, if this were a 030 or another GPU core, I might have a better time and

accept it as in the spirit of the Jaguar. Right now it's just not there.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Gorf

[Gorf]

.....your DSP is not even code compatible with the GPU or DSP. It's not longer a Jaguar.

of course, you can do so much better thing with this dsp that you will never do with gpu of the jaguar, AND by the way, as you can use the jaguar in the same time you use the CF, you can still write gpu/dsp code for the jaguar in addition

 

 

And you will never reap any benefit from trying to balance the system between the two and

yes you will be able to do some pretty amazing things with the NEW Jag II DSP and maintain

total compatibility. You guys have 'nt even shown me you know the original hardware enough

to make such judgements anyway.

 

I cant take the word of someone who thinks that the 68k will run faster in main than the GPU

will. Yuo can try to run both the CF and Jag chips at the same time but I bet you wont see

much in the way of performance increase, not to mention the much harder task you have just

givien yourself. I see no reason why any sane developer would find coding for a machine with

yet another unknown chipset with no tools attractive.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Gorf

[walter_J64bit]

right, I see the JagCF just like a Genesis 32x adaptator

 

Exactly...a whole new machine...dont even try to tell me the 32X

was in the spirit of the Genny. The DSP in the CF will not operate

as a replacement other than a FULL replacement and therefore a

new console.

If Jag fans wanted a 32X they would get a SEGA.

[downix]

.....your DSP is not even code compatible with the GPU or DSP. It's not longer a Jaguar.

of course, you can do so much better thing with this dsp that you will never do with gpu of the jaguar, AND by the way, as you can use the jaguar in the same time you use the CF, you can still write gpu/dsp code for the jaguar in addition

I call Bully

 

As Zero's already pointed out, and I concurred, you cannot do this without making performance drop through the floor. It has to be an either-or proposition or it doesn't work. And as an or, the DSP does not appear to offer enough of a performance boost over the onboard DSP/GPU combination. (helps that I work with DSP's daily, and actually do know what a 96Mhz DSP can accomplish) What the DSP offers is only a simpler programming system, for coders unable to grasp the Jaguars design, which is admittedly very complex and hard to wrap ones head around.

[Gorf]

As Zero's already pointed out, and I concurred, you cannot do this without making performance drop through the floor. It has to be an either-or proposition or it doesn't work. And as an or, the DSP does not appear to offer enough of a performance boost over the onboard DSP/GPU combination. (helps that I work with DSP's daily, and actually do know what a 96Mhz DSP can accomplish) What the DSP offers is only a simpler programming system, for coders unable to grasp the Jaguars design, which is admittedly very complex and hard to wrap ones head around.

 

Right and this is what it means to code for the JAGUAR....to face those challenges head on.

The CF DSP sounds like a crutch.

[Pocket]

yes, but, see what you can do with a ct60 on a falcon, it's so much better

 

We have already discussed this, most of the anti-CF guys never saw a Falcon + CT 60 running in real.

 

 

I know what they are and what they do. They at very least try to maintain the spirit of the machine.

The CF does this how?

 

Simple : by letting the choice to devs.

 

 

 

Then get a PC and use emulators.....this is nonsense. The CF is something else other than the Jaguar.

You can not have a foreign part added to the system and maintain its still a Jaguar. Not the way the CF is

set up. RAM alone would be one thing. All you guys are doing is handing the devlopers MORE work having

to learn a new processor. Again, if this were a 030 or another GPU core, I might have a better time and

accept it as in the spirit of the Jaguar. Right now it's just not there.

 

One day, you'll have to understand that it is not because YOU don't like the idea, that people won't like it.

 

Moreover, you are showing so much energy and loosing so much time on boards repeating the Jag CF "is not a Jag anymore", it seems you really fear people could be interested in this new add on

 

Instead of fighting others idea and passion, develop yours !

 

(Interesting to see also how you cutted the three points I made)

Edited February 5, 2008 by Pocket

[Gorf]

One day, you'll have to understand that it is not because YOU don't like the idea, that people won't like it.

 

It's I dont understand the usefulness in it. That is all.

 

Moreover, you are showing so much energy and loosing so much time on boards repeating the Jag CF "is not a Jag anymore", it seems you really fear people could be interested in this new add on

 

Fear? Of what? I don't really care what you guys do, I just think you are hoping

this unit will do things it just is not going to do. TRIPLE the speed of that DSP

and it still wont matter. The cart bus is going to cause you all sorts of issues.

My only fear is you are wasting eeryone times including your own with this CF.

 

Instead of fighting others idea and passion, develop yours !

(Interesting to see also how you cutted the three points I made)

 

Cutted? Is that even a word? Im trying to figure out the usefulness of this Idea

of yours for the Jaguar community other than to make the Jaguar something it's

not. I see yu wasting time on NEW hardare when you don't even fully understand

the old hardware.

 

You guys are acting like you are afraid of the Jag II....a hobby project BTW and

not in direct competition with the CF anyway. CF is a whole different device. A

new catagory even. If we DID want to compete with the Jag CF, I think you guys

would lose big time.

 

a working Jaguar II that could play all the old games

 

OR

 

a no-software, incompatible add on device that wont perform anywhere near as

powerfully.

 

Sorry guys...be thankful we dont have any Jag II yet. Because ,how you could blame

any real jag fan for choosing a fully comaptible upgrade over an experiment in redesign

of their fav system is beyond me. The Jag II would bitch slap your CF in popularity and

you know it would.

[Pocket]

Well, your answer confirms everything. You keep repeating the same old things over and over, adding your Jag II is better, more powerfull, nice, kicks your butt, etc. You said this hundred of times if your consider AA and JSII boards. Besides the fact it's quite a childish behaviour, why don't you use this time coding your projects ?

 

People already told you this : if you don't like the Jag CF and it's news features then, 1) don't buy it 2) don't care for it 3) don't loose your time in endless wars.

[downix]

Well, your answer confirms everything. You keep repeating the same old things over and over, adding your Jag II is better, more powerfull, nice, kicks your butt, etc. You said this hundred of times if your consider AA and JSII boards. Besides the fact it's quite a childish behaviour, why don't you use this time coding your projects ?

 

People already told you this : if you don't like the Jag CF and it's news features then, 1) don't buy it 2) don't care for it 3) don't loose your time in endless wars.

Gorf's being a bit overmelodramatic with it I think, but his underlying point does resonate as sound. The JagCF is a new device, new rules for it, but is being marketed as an add-on to the Jag, which is of questionable claim. It would be truer to say that it supplants the Jag, riding on top of it much like the 32X did. Personally, the DSP is not as exciting to me as originally presented, simply because I do know the difficulties it will have, but I am leaving an open mind about it. What the JagCF does offer tho is the ability to make new material for the console without huge investment in equipment, and that is something everyone, even Gorf, can agree is a good thing.

 

It is in all how you present it, after all.

[Gorf]

Well, your answer confirms everything. You keep repeating the same old things over and over, adding your Jag II is better, more powerfull, nice, kicks your butt, etc. You said this hundred of times if your consider AA and JSII boards. Besides the fact it's quite a childish behaviour, why don't you use this time coding your projects ?

 

People already told you this : if you don't like the Jag CF and it's news features then, 1) don't buy it 2) don't care for it 3) don't loose your time in endless wars.

 

 

You have some serious nerve accusing me of cheerleading, when you and your croonies cant keep you trap

shut about the CF, even in threads its not included in. Like this thread for instance. It is YOU assclowns that

have basically shoved this thing down all of our pie holes for the last two years, originally comming into the

community all guns blazing about how great you are, how the Jag CD is dead and how you will asve the Jaguar.

 

And you have the mellons to call me a cheer leader? At least the JAg II is something a Jag fan will beable to

make use of his entire collection with. And yes. Im a Jaguar fan and I know the Jaguar two will rock the CF's

house just based on the designs of both. I prefer PURE JAG POWA baby. You want something other than, be

my guest. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

 

 

And again, your arrogance and disregard for developers that were around long before you guys showed up

is what started this war. Dont forget that.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Gorf

[Gorf]

Well, your answer confirms everything. You keep repeating the same old things over and over, adding your Jag II is better, more powerfull, nice, kicks your butt, etc. You said this hundred of times if your consider AA and JSII boards. Besides the fact it's quite a childish behaviour, why don't you use this time coding your projects ?

 

People already told you this : if you don't like the Jag CF and it's news features then, 1) don't buy it 2) don't care for it 3) don't loose your time in endless wars.

Gorf's being a bit overmelodramatic with it I think, but his underlying point does resonate as sound. The JagCF is a new device, new rules for it, but is being marketed as an add-on to the Jag, which is of questionable claim. It would be truer to say that it supplants the Jag, riding on top of it much like the 32X did. Personally, the DSP is not as exciting to me as originally presented, simply because I do know the difficulties it will have, but I am leaving an open mind about it. What the JagCF does offer tho is the ability to make new material for the console without huge investment in equipment, and that is something everyone, even Gorf, can agree is a good thing.

 

It is in all how you present it, after all.

 

 

It would have been cheaper still without an uneccesary DSP, and the ram card would be on my must have list if it was mapped

at a sane address. The CF could be re-mapped two k higher, the Jag games you make on it will still beable to be put in carts for

those with out a CF because there is no more need for a DSP. Then CF would be the Alpine replacement of the century! To use

it to circumvent what is the Jaguar is not logical to me, unless you are looking to kill the Jag platform and make a whole new one.

 

Dump the DSP, make it a 6 meg dev card, and include nice libs. The DSP in the cart thing is not sensible considering the performance

you MIGHT get in return for it. You can release this in a month in stead of all the time it willtake you to get tools ready and a whole new

dev suite to make use of it...you were going to have a dev suite right?

[Atariboy]

Gorf, why don't you leave him alone instead of acting like a troll?

[Gorf]

Gorf, why don't you leave him alone instead of acting like a troll?

 

 

Why dont you leave ME alone and see who started acting like a troll along time ago.

Don't but in to a story you DONT have the foggist clue about.

[Gorf]

Gorf, why don't you leave him alone instead of acting like a troll?

 

 

Why dont you leave ME alone and see who started acting like a troll along time ago.

Don't but in to a story you DONT have the foggist clue about.

 

 

And if you open your eyes and READ you will see I am trying to be helpful.

Trolling is commenting without adding anything.....much like you did.

[sd32]

As somebody who has always wanted to see what the Jag could really do (by itself), i dont care about games done for the new DSP. If its just to have more advanced titles and having more games just for the sake of it (i see that many want to port 16 bit titles, and even those are probably using the DSP), well, i have other consoles for that.

On the other hand i am excited about having a new media that offers a ram upgrade for developers to use, and it appears that if it only was that, everyone would be in favor of the CF.

Just my 2 cents.