7800 vs.....

[DracIsBack]

Now, folks, what about Static Displays? Color and Resolution? On-screen movement in the varying areas? Memory, in applications

 

How about we compare games? Comparing specs in and of themselves is kind of pointless.

 

What will a Colecovision programmer run up against when doing the following 7800 games on the Colecovision:

 

• Ballblazer
  
• Sirius
  
• Alien Brigade
  
• Midnight Mutants
  
• Ninja Golf
  
• Froggie
  
• Robotron 2084
  
• Scrapyard Dog
  
• Commando
  
• F-18 Hornet
  
• Tower Toppler
  
• Dark Chambers
  

As for sound, that's just kind of silly. Everyone knows the 7800 has crappy sound and that the strategy for working around that was (POKEY and/or GUMBY sound chips in the cart) was never realized.

[DanBoris]

Since, Vigo, we have established- indirectly because of that person I contacted- that you do not know as much as you would have us believe (just why didn't you mention the 2-color limit?), and Supercat's reply from the other thread would seem to reinforce this, can WE NOW GET BACK TO COMPARING THE CV TO THE 7800?

 

We've established- no thanks to you- that the CV can do smooth scrolling, but not up to the level of the 7800 in games like Tower Toppler, but definitely yes in games like Galaxian and Defender, probably Galaga, too. And since the 7800 has notoriously bad sound, the CV has it beat there, too.

 

Now, folks, what about Static Displays? Color and Resolution? On-screen movement in the varying areas? Memory, in applications?

 

Thanks!

 

I appreciate Vigo and Gorf's passion for this topic but lets try to tone it down a bit and get back to more level headed discussion of the topic. I have actually found this topic quite interesting because if I were asked which was more powerful before this I would have said 7800 without hesitation, but I now see that these two system are a lot closer then I thought.

 

Resolution is an interesting question. Going by the specs Colecovision can do 256 pixels horizontal and the 7800 can do 320, but the 320 pixel modes can take up a lot of graphics processor bandwidth and have limited colors. For this reason most 7800 games use the 160 pixel mode. So the 7800 has a theoretical higher resolution, but the Colecovisions lower resolution is more useful.

 

This actually highlights the difficulty of comparing systems. We all know that specs are only a small piece of the puzzle since most system can be pushed to do things that it's not apparent they could do from their specs. We can also demonstrate a systems capabilities by doing tech demos, but these don't tell the whole story either. Just because you can demonstrate something in a tech demo doesn't mean it would actually be practicle in a game. I can do demo on the 7800 that shows a 320 pixel wide display with 4 colors per line and bi-directional fine scrolling, but I probably couldn't build a game on top of it.

 

The only way to really settle these things for sure is to try to implement certain games on each system to see what how they come out.

 

Dan

[DanBoris]

What will a Colecovision programmer run up against when doing the following 7800 games on the Colecovision:

 

• Ballblazer
  
• Sirius
  
• Alien Brigade
  
• Midnight Mutants
  
• Ninja Golf
  
• Froggie
  
• Robotron 2084
  
• Scrapyard Dog
  
• Commando
  
• F-18 Hornet
  
• Tower Toppler
  
• Dark Chambers
  

 

As for sound, that's just kind of silly. Everyone knows the 7800 has crappy sound and that the strategy for working around that was (POKEY and/or GUMBY sound chips in the cart) was never realized.

 

I am curious what people who know the CV think it could do with Robotron. Robotron demonstrates the 7800's strongest feature, the ability to do a lot of colorful moving objects. Some screens in Robotron have up to 50 moving objects, each with 4 colors and different sprites using a different color pallette.

 

Dan

[Gorf]

I appreciate Vigo and Gorf's passion for this topic but lets try to tone it down a bit and get back to more level headed discussion of the topic.

 

I would love to...unfortunately, my experience means nothing to some around here.

 

This actually highlights the difficulty of comparing systems. We all know that specs are only a small piece of the puzzle since most system can The only way to really settle these things for sure is to try to implement certain games on each system to see what how they come out.

Dan

 

 

Every machine has its stong points and its week points. The 7800 vs the CV hardware wise

is almost silly. Different processors, video chips, sound....

 

The 7800 lacks in sound with out a pokey on the cart where at least the CV can do a few parts

without extra parts and therefore extra cost. The CV one color sprites are not nearly as pretty

as the 7800's. The resolution of the CV is definitely sharper. However... both can do some rather

faithful reproductions with the right guy coding them....that would not be me btw... I'll stick with

the Jaguar and the Astrocade for now....

 

 

 

Steve

[malducci]

The 7800 is an excellent machine and so is the Colecovision. I'll take either anyday over the

flicker fest that is the NES. The SMS kicks all thier asses in my opinion (that's my opinion, not

a fact technically or otherwise) I based that on the sprites and the backgrounds I see between

the machines, even though I love the 7800 much more.

 

The SMS is same 'flicker fest' when it comes to sprites. They both have the same sprite per scanline limit. And the Coleco is even worst than the NES for sprite scanline limit. That makes no sense.

[Gorf]

The 7800 is an excellent machine and so is the Colecovision. I'll take either anyday over the

flicker fest that is the NES. The SMS kicks all thier asses in my opinion (that's my opinion, not

a fact technically or otherwise) I based that on the sprites and the backgrounds I see between

the machines, even though I love the 7800 much more.

 

The SMS is same 'flicker fest' when it comes to sprites. They both have the same sprite per scanline limit. And the Coleco is even worst than the NES for sprite scanline limit. That makes no sense.

 

 

The video on the SMS looks alot cleaner. I think the SMS handled larger sprites

a little cleaner than the NES.....all classic consoles for the most part have flicker

but the NES video is not really all that great to begin with and the flicker tends

to be a lot more noticeable. Im going by comparing the two on the same television

set. The SMS just seems a bit more robust in the color and the crispness department.

 

Again, as I said in the post you quoted...it is a matter of MY particular opinion and

preference... not fact, just opinion.

[DracIsBack]

.all classic consoles for the most part have flicker

but the NES video is not really all that great to begin with and the flicker tends

to be a lot more noticeable.

 

The one exception, generally, being the 7800.

 

The SMS just seems a bit more robust in the color and the crispness department.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the SMS simply bring together the best of 8bit consoles as far as color?

 

- It produces bright colors ala the NES

- It has a brought palette ala the 7800

- It has high-colored tiles (more per title than the NES or 7800)

[Gorf]

.all classic consoles for the most part have flicker

but the NES video is not really all that great to begin with and the flicker tends

to be a lot more noticeable.

 

The one exception, generally, being the 7800.

 

The SMS just seems a bit more robust in the color and the crispness department.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the SMS simply bring together the best of 8bit consoles as far as color?

 

- It produces bright colors ala the NES

- It has a brought palette ala the 7800

- It has high-colored tiles (more per title than the NES or 7800)

 

 

That's what my eyes see when I play them side by side on the same set via the RF.

[malducci]

Yeah, the SMS has more colors per tile and per sprite (16 for tile - 15 per sprite). Much cleaner looking agreed

[Gorf]

Yeah, the SMS has more colors per tile and per sprite (16 for tile - 15 per sprite). Much cleaner looking agreed

 

 

I got two completely screwed up SMS consoles for free. Both were

SOAKED in dish detergent and stuck in a box with other junk parts.

It was at The Arbor Firehouse Flea Market near me. I cleans both

units up and they both worked but I only had one and a half cases.

 

AstroWarrior came with the deal and That looks very nice and I never remeber any flicker in that.

[DanBoris]

Yeah, the SMS has more colors per tile and per sprite (16 for tile - 15 per sprite). Much cleaner looking agreed

 

Since both the Colecovsion and the SMS use TMS9918 for video, how can the SMS do more more colors per sprite then the Colecovision?

 

Dan

[DracIsBack]

AstroWarrior came with the deal and That looks very nice and I never remeber any flicker in that.

 

 

I have owned three SMS systems in my life. Love the machine, agree with the points on graphics. That said, it can flicker with the best of 'em.

[ZylonBane]

Since both the Colecovsion and the SMS use TMS9918 for video, how can the SMS do more more colors per sprite then the Colecovision?

Wikipedia is your friend:

The TMS9918 was used in systems like MSX, ColecoVision, Texas Instruments TI-99/4, Memotech MTX and Sega SG-1000/SC-3000. Modified versions with additional display modes and registers were used in the Sega Master System, Sega Game Gear, and Sega Genesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS9918

[frogstar_robot]

Since both the Colecovsion and the SMS use TMS9918 for video, how can the SMS do more more colors per sprite then the Colecovision?

 

Dan

 

It appears that the SMS uses a chip based on the TMS9918 but isn't the bare TMS9918 in the ColecoVision. Further there is an entire family of graphics chips that are derived for the TMS9918. Trivial googling revealed the following about the SMS Video Display Processor:

 

- Custom video controller (VDP), derived from the TMS9918/9928 chip made by

Texas Instruments, and providing:

- 256x192 tile-based screen in 16 colours,

- 64 8x8, 8x16 or 16x16 hardware sprites,

- 32 colours on screen (16 for sprites, 16 for background) from a

palette of 64,

- Hardware up/down/left/right scrolling of all or part of screen.

 

- Video information held in 16k of VRAM, not in the Z80 memory map, but

accessed via input/output ports.

 

So the chip itself is a bit beefier than the CV's and furthermore has a chunk of memory dedicated to it.

Edited August 30, 2008 by frogstar_robot

[DracIsBack]

- 32 colours on screen (16 for sprites, 16 for background) from a

palette of 64,

 

In terms of colors, I have heard both 64 colors and also 256 colors depending on the source. Also, 32 and 52 on screen.

[malducci]

In terms of colors, I have heard both 64 colors and also 256 colors depending on the source. Also, 32 and 52 on screen.

 

I remember those numbers too. I'm pretty sure they originated from some magazines - probably EGM.

 

The palettes has 32 entires of 2bit RGB (64 colors), unlike some other systems that use HSV. So there would be no way to display more colors than what the palette has. Not like the NES which has 52 colors but additional color emphasis bits allowing for up to 400+ color palette ( though only accessible in fixed segments of 52 colors).

 

The SMS has 16 colors for sprites, but color 0 is transparent - so only 15 colors are visible. Tile has 16 colors, but color 0 is transparent to show color # 0 form the master palette - this is for tile/sprite priority layering so sprites can appear underneath tiles but never underneath color slot 0. Aslo, each individual tile can also be set to use the the BG 16 color palette or the sprite 16 color palette. So the background has access to the whole palette block in a segmented fashion.

 

Also, the sprites are only 8x8 or 8x16. There are no 16x16 sprites for SMS. That would have been great, but it's not the case. The GameGear is the same as the SMS except the palette format is 4bit RGB (4096 colors) but still limited to 32 slots.

Edited August 30, 2008 by malducci

[Gorf]

AstroWarrior came with the deal and That looks very nice and I never remeber any flicker in that.

 

 

I have owned three SMS systems in my life. Love the machine, agree with the points on graphics. That said, it can flicker with the best of 'em.

 

 

Absolutely. I was just pointing out that with all the visuals going on in Astro Warrior

it's pretty impressive for a home console considering. But yes, they all flicker.

[Gorf]

I'd love to see some sample source for the SMS.... that and take a look at PacManPluses

piece of sample code he posted up for the 7800.

 

Time.....if only it were eternity!

[Crazyace]

In terms of colors, I have heard both 64 colors and also 256 colors depending on the source. Also, 32 and 52 on screen.

 

The palettes has 32 entires of 2bit RGB (64 colors), unlike some other systems that use HSV. So there would be no way to display more colors than what the palette has. Not like the NES which has 52 colors but additional color emphasis bits allowing for up to 400+ color palette ( though only accessible in fixed segments of 52 colors).

 

How does that work on the NES? I've never heard much about it before.. ( Not that I've looked at the NES much, went from Gameboy/Gamegear to SNES in programming )

 

Found it now... just had to read some docs...

Edited August 30, 2008 by Crazyace

[DanBoris]

Since both the Colecovsion and the SMS use TMS9918 for video, how can the SMS do more more colors per sprite then the Colecovision?

Wikipedia is your friend:

The TMS9918 was used in systems like MSX, ColecoVision, Texas Instruments TI-99/4, Memotech MTX and Sega SG-1000/SC-3000. Modified versions with additional display modes and registers were used in the Sega Master System, Sega Game Gear, and Sega Genesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS9918

 

Ah, thanks! I actually read the Wikipedia article, guess I read it two fast.

 

Dan

[malducci]

In terms of colors, I have heard both 64 colors and also 256 colors depending on the source. Also, 32 and 52 on screen.

 

The palettes has 32 entires of 2bit RGB (64 colors), unlike some other systems that use HSV. So there would be no way to display more colors than what the palette has. Not like the NES which has 52 colors but additional color emphasis bits allowing for up to 400+ color palette ( though only accessible in fixed segments of 52 colors).

 

How does that work on the NES? I've never heard much about it before.. ( Not that I've looked at the NES much, went from Gameboy/Gamegear to SNES in programming )

 

Found it now... just had to read some docs...

 

The GBC is a great and easy system to code for. The z80 in general is quite slow, but the 8(2)mhz variant in the GBC is really nice. All that vblank time is gold too! Same with GG.

[Vigo]

Since, Vigo, we have established- indirectly because of that person I contacted- that you do not know as much as you would have us believe (just why didn't you mention the 2-color limit?), and Supercat's reply from the other thread would seem to reinforce this, can WE NOW GET BACK TO COMPARING THE CV TO THE 7800?

 

You can't let it go, can you? Every time you mess with me is going to be a heavy footbullet for you, which shows your inability. I already wrote about the 2 colour limit of the Colecovision in this post in exactly THIS THREAD!

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1572750

 

And since you are not going to read it anyway, as always, I quote and highlight it for you:

 

Though you can apply all techniques learned from the C64 hires bitmap mode to the Colecovision (the colecovision can even do more out of the box, since you can change the fore/background colour pair every 8 pixels, similar to the C64 FLI mode), the biggest limitation, worse than the lack of scrolling IMHO, with this machine is that it can only display 4 sprites per line.

 

Now go ahead and look up what C64 FLI mode it, because it is similar to the Colecovision mode... Oh wait, you won't be able to do that, as proven in the past, too, so I will do it for you:

 

http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm

 

And since you won't be able to read that, too, I am goint to quote the relevant passage:

 

Special version of FLI is the HiRes FLI, which uses the same principles in HiRes mode. It allows graphician to use 2 colors (the background and foreground color) in 1*8 pixels big attribute area.

 

And here, a nice picture to go with, since all technical discussions are wasted on you anyway:

 

 

We've established-

 

The only thing YOU have established is your continued incompetence and ability to comprehend and read my posts.

 

no thanks to you- that the CV can do smooth scrolling, but not up to the level of the 7800 in games like Tower Toppler, but definitely yes in games like Galaxian and Defender, probably Galaga, too. And since the 7800 has notoriously bad sound, the CV has it beat there, too.

 

Hello??? I quoted SEVERAL TIMES that the Colecovision can do smooth scrolling, but NOT IN HARDWARE!

Edited August 30, 2008 by Vigo

[Vigo]

The GBC is a great and easy system to code for. The z80 in general is quite slow, but the 8(2)mhz variant in the GBC is really nice. All that vblank time is gold too! Same with GG.

 

Though, if you really want to be picky, the GBC has not a Z80, but an enhanced 8080 architecture. For example, the GBC lacks the second register pair of the Z80. Compare to the NES and SMS, the Game Boy can display 10 sprites per line, which is also nicer than the NES, and is certainly very well suited for the 160x144 display. The 2nd windowed character screen is also a nice feature.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Vigo

[DracIsBack]

I remember those numbers too. I'm pretty sure they originated from some magazines - probably EGM.

 

Yeah - it was definitely from a mag. I remember being surprised and thinking "52 colors of 256 ... wow". It was around the time of the SMS II (which I owned) in North America. It was also in conflict with what I remembered on the SMS 1 box.

 

The GameGear is the same as the SMS except the palette format is 4bit RGB (4096 colors) but still limited to 32 slots.

 

Speaking of the GameGear, I firmly maintain that its technical similarity to the SMS helped the SMS have a much larger library. Even though the SMS essentially died in North America around the time of the GameGear's introduction, companies could quickly create SMS versions of GameGear titles and release them in Europe where the market was very viable. In the end, I think there are something like 2 or 3 euro SMS games that were never out in North America ... yet will play on a North American system.

[Vigo]

The video on the SMS looks alot cleaner. I think the SMS handled larger sprites

a little cleaner than the NES.....all classic consoles for the most part have flicker

but the NES video is not really all that great to begin with and the flicker tends

to be a lot more noticeable. Im going by comparing the two on the same television

set. The SMS just seems a bit more robust in the color and the crispness department.

 

You can do games on the SMS which will look much better than NES games, since you have the whole 15 colour attribute palette for each sprite and another 15 colour attribute palette for the background, without those 8x8 pixel 3 colour attribute restrictions like the NES. Both have almost the same resolution (the SMS lacks a few lines which is not really a problem) and can actually display the same amount of sprite pixels per line. The only thing which the NES can do better is sound (well, compared to the European/American SMS, some japanese Sega Mark III consoles have a Yahama YM2413 FM chip, which is quite nice). The SN76489 (which is also in the Colecovision) can only have 4 square waves plus noise, while the NES has 2 square waves with variable pulse width, triangle waveform, 2 types of noise (short and long period - short period can be used to make a "dink" sounding noise), plus a DPCM channel.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Vigo