7800 vs.....

[DracIsBack]

Wow, you really have been accessing this thread in write-only mode, haven't you?

 

Heh - that made me laugh out loud.

[CV Gus]

Actually, I'm trying to figure out if the 7800 really had a chance. Unlike the move from 2600 to CV, the move from CV to 7800- or even 5200 to 7800- just doesn't strike me as all that big a deal.

 

One problem with not relying on specs is that, rarely, is a system's full abilities used. Look at the scrolling in CV Front Line and Sky Jaguar- then look at Bump `N Jump. And even that is not the best, but it sure is better.

 

5200 Pac-Man is another example. Could not the ghosts have been at least 2-colored each? If so, would the motion have been choppier, as in Ms. Pac-Man?

 

Thanks to that programmer, I now have a good idea of a CV's abilities. But a 7800? Hard to say. Was Sirius the BEST side-scrolling it could do? Could Ms. Pac-Man have been better- look at the ghosts from Opcode's CV version.

 

The 7800 version of Joust was better than the 5200- but not much more so than the CV version. But, was this because the 5200 had reached its limit there, or could the visuals have been better?

 

This is what I'm trying to figure out- used to their fullest abilities, how would a CV and a 7800 compare, overall- sound aside, in which almost every other system short of an RCA Studio 2 could beat a 7800?

 

What I was hoping for here was a comparison along the lines of the 5200 vs. CV one at AGH.

Edited September 10, 2008 by CV Gus

[Crazyace]

I think both the 7800 and the 5200 had a lot more potential, especially the 7800...

As the 5200 was basically an 8 bit .. in theory anything could be done ( with a big enough cartridge ) - look at Yoomp and the other 130Xe ( and higher ) code..

 

The one big advantage the coleco has is that it's designed for 256 pixels.. the 7800 can support 320, but it needs more work - and things are really intended for 160 pixel.

 

oh - the CPU is better on the CV, not because of any 6502 vs Z80 issue, but purely due to the fact that Maria steals 6502 processor cycles..

[ZylonBane]

5200 Pac-Man is another example. Could not the ghosts have been at least 2-colored each?

They could have been three-colored.

[Gorf]

I think both the 7800 and the 5200 had a lot more potential, especially the 7800...

As the 5200 was basically an 8 bit .. in theory anything could be done ( with a big enough cartridge ) - look at Yoomp and the other 130Xe ( and higher ) code..

 

The one big advantage the coleco has is that it's designed for 256 pixels.. the 7800 can support 320, but it needs more work - and things are really intended for 160 pixel.

 

oh - the CPU is better on the CV, not because of any 6502 vs Z80 issue, but purely due to the fact that Maria steals 6502 processor cycles..

 

That is not the fault of the CPU but the design of the system.

 

Since I've coded both in the old days till my fingers hurt, its hard to say

which is better. I just now am getting back to the Astrocade...Z80 and

now thanks to PacManPlus's 7800 sample the 6502. I really dig the

6502. Yes the Z80 rocks with all those extra registers and instructions

but the way the 6502 is setup makes its lack of registers almost a plus.

 

Those x and y regs can be very useful in table look up situations.

It also accomplished things in less cycles for the most part.

 

x and y index regs rule!

 

The Z80 on the other hand has those wonderful conditional long jumps

and returns and those most handy block move instructions.

 

conditional return and long jumps rule!

 

There are plenty of things you can go back and forth to with each processor.

 

Im finding myself missing instructions on one processor when coding on the

other and the other way around too!

[kenfused]

Beef Drop 7800 source is available in this thread

[HARMIK]

Actually, I\'m trying to figure out if the 7800 really had a chance. Unlike the move from 2600 to CV, the move from CV to 7800- or even 5200 to 7800- just doesn\'t strike me as all that big a deal.

 

At the time I think it was a big deal read my earlier post. And as I said I think some of the best games were the first ones.

 

One problem with not relying on specs is that, rarely, is a system\'s full abilities used.

 

I agree

 

5200 Pac-Man is another example. Could not the ghosts have been at least 2-colored each? If so, would the motion have been choppier, as in Ms. Pac-Man?

 

As you have said systems do not always get used to there full potential, I think 5200 Pac-Man was mostly just a port from the 400/800 which was done much earlier.

 

 

The 7800 version of Joust was better than the 5200- but not much more so than the CV version. But, was this because the 5200 had reached its limit there, or could the visuals have been better?

 

I think the 7800 version of joust was very good but yes could the 5200 have done better?

 

This is what I\'m trying to figure out- used to their fullest abilities, how would a CV and a 7800 compare, overall- sound aside, in which almost every other system short of an RCA Studio 2 could beat a 7800?

 

Add to that the 5200 if they had stuck with that but put in more effort and memory in the carts.

 

Great thead CV Gus

Edited September 11, 2008 by HARMIK

[HARMIK]

Sorry above did not work out quite right will have to work out how to take bits of quote's.

 

Fixed it

Edited September 11, 2008 by HARMIK

[ZylonBane]

Sorry above did not work out quite right will have to work out how to take bits of quote's.

Bits of quote is?

[Crazyace]

What I was hoping for here was a comparison along the lines of the 5200 vs. CV one at AGH.

 

This shows how a moon patrol might work on the 7800...

 

Although the res is 160 ( rather than 240 ) the 7800 can handle the 2 independant overlapping scrolls, which is something the CV would find extremely difficult ( The Moon Patrol on the CV does do a very good job of scrolling using the charset )

 

(actually you need to wait.. I cant attach the a78 for some reason )

[DracIsBack]

What I was hoping for here was a comparison along the lines of the 5200 vs. CV one at AGH.

 

This shows how a moon patrol might work on the 7800...

 

Although the res is 160 ( rather than 240 ) the 7800 can handle the 2 independant overlapping scrolls, which is something the CV would find extremely difficult ( The Moon Patrol on the CV does do a very good job of scrolling using the charset )

 

(actually you need to wait.. I cant attach the a78 for some reason )

 

 

 

Neat. Usually people zip up the a78 and bin files into a ZIP, which it does accept.

[Crazyace]

I hadn't thought of that

 

( Thanks to Albert as well for the response )

 

Here's the code and a78...

code.zip

[DracIsBack]

The 7800 version of Joust was better than the 5200- but not much more so than the CV version. But, was this because the 5200 had reached its limit there, or could the visuals have been better?

 

This is what I'm trying to figure out- used to their fullest abilities, how would a CV and a 7800 compare, overall

 

Why do you keep coming back to simple games like Joust, which aren't even close to the best looking games on the 7800? Who cares how close (or not) the Colecovision and 7800 are on a simple game like that?

 

Make this interesting. Here's a batch of 7800 games (which I listed earlier and it was ignored). What will a Colecovision programmer run up against when doing the following 7800 games on the Colecovision?:

 

• Ballblazer
  
• Sirius
  
• Alien Brigade
  
• Midnight Mutants
  
• Ninja Golf
  
• Froggie
  
• Robotron 2084
  
• Scrapyard Dog
  
• Commando
  
• F-18 Hornet
  
• Tower Toppler
  
• Dark Chambers
  

How "close" would the Colecovision be on them? What sacrifices would have to be made there? Would the Colecovision pull those off so that it "wouldn't have been that big of a deal in terms of difference?"

 

The vs. has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

7800: many more moving objects overall, more colors on screen, per sprite and overall, hardware assisted scrolling, more display tricks

 

Colecovision: higher practical resolution, lower overall resolution, fewer colors overall, no hardware assisted scrolling, fewer display tricks

Edited September 12, 2008 by DracIsBack

[Crazyace]

Here's another a78 to show moon patrol in two modes..

 

Use left/right to scroll, and up/down to switch between 160 and 320 pixel mode.

( The 320 mode is a 240 wide screen centred - matches the arcade vertical aspect ratio more )

 

It's still a hack - but it shows something you couldn't do on the colecovision - or even on a NES or SMS.

 

( Maybe on the SMS - with heroic charset manipulation.... )

 

 

I've not run this on a real 7800 yet, just through the emulator - so if anyone tries it, let me know if there are any issues..

code.zip

[ZylonBane]

Use left/right to scroll, and up/down to switch between 160 and 320 pixel mode.

( The 320 mode is a 240 wide screen centred - matches the arcade vertical aspect ratio more )

Arcade Moon Patrol used a standard 4:3 (aka 1.333:1) aspect ratio. To produce a subjectively arcade-perfect port the graphics would need to be redrawn, since at the original width they're too narrow, and at doubled width they're too wide.

 

http://www.subarubrat.com/PICS/defmoon.jpg

[CV Gus]

Sadly, Crazyace, I cannot play the emulator.

 

Any screenshots? I'll assume the scrolling is smooth.

 

To DracIsBack:

 

That's sort of the problem- I don't know how that would be.

 

Sure, the 7800 can show more colors, as can the 5200- but at what price? Atari always bragged about the 5200 having a 25% greater resolution and more colors, but in fact you couldn't have both.

 

I just don't know the full limits of either. At AGH, they have a comparison about how much better the 5200 was than the CV, but why then did CV games overall, and even Atarisoft games like Galaxian, Joust, and Pac-Man come out better on the CV? The only way to know is for someone who has Opcode-level knowledge of both systems (or more than one who can put it all together) to list comparisons. For example, Vigo said that EVERYTHING to a 7800 is an "object." (or something like that).

 

Would that give the CV an advantage in certain areas? A disadvantage in others- such is obvious in Asteroids, which I doubt the CV could do like the 7800?

 

Anyone?

 

This ain't comparing apples and oranges- more like apples to seafood.

[Crazyace]

Hi,

 

The two screenshots show the 160 mode and the 320 mode. The scrolling is 160pixel res as the HW scrolling on the 7800 is fixed to that res ( same as the 5200 )

[Crazyace]

Sure, the 7800 can show more colors, as can the 5200- but at what price? Atari always bragged about the 5200 having a 25% greater resolution and more colors, but in fact you couldn't have both.

 

I just don't know the full limits of either. At AGH, they have a comparison about how much better the 5200 was than the CV, but why then did CV games overall, and even Atarisoft games like Galaxian, Joust, and Pac-Man come out better on the CV?

 

I hated Galaxians and Pacman on the 8 bit... they didn't seem to be the 'real' games. ( unlike Donkey Kong, which was far closer ) - I looked at the coleco version and it's a lot closer, but still suffers from the single colour sprites.

[+Mitch]

Here's another a78 to show moon patrol in two modes..

 

Use left/right to scroll, and up/down to switch between 160 and 320 pixel mode.

( The 320 mode is a 240 wide screen centred - matches the arcade vertical aspect ratio more )

 

It's still a hack - but it shows something you couldn't do on the colecovision - or even on a NES or SMS.

 

( Maybe on the SMS - with heroic charset manipulation.... )

 

 

I've not run this on a real 7800 yet, just through the emulator - so if anyone tries it, let me know if there are any issues..

 

It works on a real 7800. Are you going to finish coding the game?

 

Mitch

[Crazyace]

Use left/right to scroll, and up/down to switch between 160 and 320 pixel mode.

( The 320 mode is a 240 wide screen centred - matches the arcade vertical aspect ratio more )

Arcade Moon Patrol used a standard 4:3 (aka 1.333:1) aspect ratio. To produce a subjectively arcade-perfect port the graphics would need to be redrawn, since at the original width they're too narrow, and at doubled width they're too wide.

 

http://www.subarubrat.com/PICS/defmoon.jpg

 

Your absolutely correct - for some reason I thought it was a portrait monitor like space invaders...

 

( I grabbed the original mountains and hills to test, but cutting from several screenshots of the arcade game being played )

[Crazyace]

It works on a real 7800. Are you going to finish coding the game?

 

Mitch

 

I should do something with it - it was only an exercise to show the moon patrol background scrolling to compare with the coleco matt patrol for CV gus

 

( Looking at it I think I could duplicate the 160 version on a 5200 as well )

[CV Gus]

So the one on the left- the 160-mode- is what you can do with the built-in scrolling? Does that mean that one CAN do the 320-mode, but it would take more effort?

 

There are two things I'm wondering about here:

 

1) Every other scene in Matt Patrol shows "the cityscape." Would it have been possible to reshape the green hills to resemble the structures in the arcade version?

 

2) If every line in a space can show two colors for a CV, then would it be possible to have multi-colored hills- as you did in your images- as long as the extra colors are not within 8 pixels of a hill or mountain's edge?

 

Thanks.

Edited September 20, 2008 by CV Gus

[Exophase]

Video processors don't do much of anything by themselves (nor, for that matter, do most microprocessors). The concept of Turing completeness would only become meaningful if there were some circuitry to drive them (code-storage ROM at the very least). The minimum number of steps required to achieve a Turing-complete system would depend in significant measure upon what the steps were. Suppose one had a graphics chip with two 1xn graphics buffer called L and R, and two nxn graphics buffers P and T. The following sequence of steps, if iterated, would be Turing-complete (the 'program' would be in P; the initial state would be in L).

• For all i,j in 1..N, R[i,j] = P[i,j] and L
  
• For all i in 1..N, T = 1
  
• For all i,j in 1..N, T[j] = T[j] and R[i,j]
  
• For all i in 1..N, L = L xor T
  

Most graphics coprocessors could be hardwared to run that sequence pretty easily (with the caveat that they only handle finite screen dimensions). That particular implementation isn't just Turing-complete--it can actually perform work in a reasonable number of steps. The biggest problem is that each dimension of the array would be proportional to the required amount of memory).

 

Unless the video processor is capable of looping then it can't do this, and I think for something to be Turing complete it must at least be able to operate on its own indefinitely after being bootstrapped. I don't know if Jaguar's video processors can loop but they'd have to be able to to even have the power of finite state machines.

[Crazyace]

So the one on the left- the 160-mode- is what you can do with the built-in scrolling? Does that mean that one CAN do the 320-mode, but it would take more effort?

 

They are both using hardware scrolling - just 2 different resolutions. The only thing is that the 7800 scrolling scrolls 2 pixels at a time in 320 mode, so I'd have to have two sets of graphics for the mountains to get a 320pixel res scroll.

The graphics are the arcade graphics, and they scroll as two layers, rather than two 'stripes' on the CV version ( Which is still quite impressive for a machine with no scrolling H/W and character set graphics )

 

It's a lot more work using the 320 mode for the 7800 - so in practise it would be better to use the 160 mode, which would allow a lot more in terms of sprites per line.

 

There are two things I'm wondering about here:

 

1) Every other scene in Matt Patrol shows "the cityscape." Would it have been possible to reshape the green hills to resemble the structures in the arcade version?

 

2) If every line in a space can show two colors for a CV, then would it be possible to have multi-colored hills- as you did in your images- as long as the extra colors are not within 8 pixels of a hill or mountain's edge?

 

Thanks.

 

It would be possible to have multi coloured hills, but very limiting - for a still image you need 2 colours per 8 pixels - if it scrolls you need 2 colours per 16 pixels at least..

 

 

..aa..aa ..bb..bb

is ok for still but if you scroll 1/2 char you get

......aa ..aa..bb ..bb....

which breaks the colour tile

 

Actually I think you wont be able to mix colours - but you could scroll this

 

..aa..aa ........ ..bb..bb

 

after 1/2 char it's

 

......aa ..aa.... ......bb ..bb.... which is ok

 

The big problem with having more graphics is the character count - for the CV matt patrol there are 8 copies of the graphics to support the pixel scroll, and this limits the size, so as you see the mountain and city are very repetitive. The hill is quite clever, as the gradient is repeated, so some characters are reused.

[DracIsBack]

Hi,

 

The two screenshots show the 160 mode and the 320 mode. The scrolling is 160pixel res as the HW scrolling on the 7800 is fixed to that res ( same as the 5200 )

 

Do you have a .bin version of this for us Cuttle Cart owners?