7.16mhz 1200XL

[+bob1200xl]

Yes!

 

Good idea.

 

Bob

 

 

Apologies if it's already been suggested, but I think the 7.16Mhz board should obviously be called "XLerator".

[danwinslow]

Can we implement a browser with 512K at 14mhz?

 

Yes, I think so. Especially with a VBXE involved. But even without, I think a basic text mode browser would work.

[JokerCPoC]

I don't think so...

 

The main change is to bring the MMU up into the CPLD on the board. Leaving it on the motherboard causes limitations and compromises. 14mhz is a side benefit, really. If the higher speed isn't solid, I can drop back to 7mhz.

 

If you don't care about expanded memory (RAMBO, XE, or linear), the original design is fine at 7 mhz. But, if you don't have expanded memory, you can't (easily) run the OS and cart from RAM, forcing them to run at Atari speed.

 

I don't know - is a 600% speed increase more useful than 300%? Is 512K of linear memory worth the effort? Can we implement a browser with 512K at 14mhz?

 

Bob

 

 

 

Hi Bob-

 

How many new issues arose from moving from XL7 to XL14?

 

Is this a case of diminishing marginal returns?

 

-Larry

A web browser? We'd need an Ethernet device like the C64 folks have which I imagine puts the Ethernet stack(64K) in some onboard memory maybe(If that's possible).

[Rybags]

The faster, the better, I reckon.

 

In conjunction with VBXE, we'd have something that's getting into Amiga 1200 territory.

[danwinslow]

Well, actually, we can sponge off of a PC for the ethernet. I was planning on resurrecting my SIO tunnel for ethernet if this speedup came to be. I abdandoned it due to the agonizing slowness and lack of space....but with HIA's new high speed stuff and this expansion I think it would workout pretty well. Plus I have some stuff for CC65 an running in banked memory. Between all that stuff I think it'd work out ok. Also, last I heard one of our hardware guys was working on an ethernet cart.

[peteym5]

I am wondering, is someone planning on producing these boards and sell them to others? I took my 130xe apart and discovered my CPU is in a socket. If I can get the board+cpu cheap, I probably can swap out the cpu with this board.

[JamesD]

Even with 512K your browsing the web will be limited. There are pictures on web pages larger than that.

 

I think it would be more interesting to port the Unix like OS from the IIgs as a development environment.

At one time there was a C cross compiler that would run naively if you can still find the source.

I'm not sure how complete it was though.

[+bob1200xl]

I would imagine that you would implement some sort of virtual memory, using 512K of real RAM and a CF card. Using large page sizes (16-64K) should allow you to move blocks pretty quickly, on the order of a fraction of a second. You're not going to need more than 128K for display RAM at any one time, are you? You could even make the CF card cache web pages, as a bonus.

 

Bob <=== not a programmer...

 

 

Even with 512K your browsing the web will be limited. There are pictures on web pages larger than that.

 

I think it would be more interesting to port the Unix like OS from the IIgs as a development environment.

At one time there was a C cross compiler that would run naively if you can still find the source.

I'm not sure how complete it was though.

[JamesD]

The 65816 doesn't have features to support virtual memory which would make that difficult and swapping to/from a CF card would not be very fast.

 

A simple text based web browser like Lynx would work much faster.

[danwinslow]

The 65816 doesn't have features to support virtual memory which would make that difficult and swapping to/from a CF card would not be very fast.

 

A simple text based web browser like Lynx would work much faster.

 

Right, there's no way it could support anything like the normal browsing experience...picture size and color depth being only two of the many issues. With a VBXE involved, then maybe sorta.

 

But I think a nice text browser would certainly be possible, including clickable links, etc. It would be fun to develop a specialized subset of html for use with old 8 bits...and *hosting* such a web site would be fun too. We could have a sub-web of our own If we see a normal browser coming in we could kick them out with a rude message to get a *real* computer.

[+bob1200xl]

What features do you need? The upper 8 bits of address come off the CPU in the middle of a memory cycle. They basically give you the 64K block address that you are accessing. Take that data and compare it with a small array of 'valid' bits, generate an ABORT before the end of the cycle, interrupt the CPU for a miss, and load the block. Loading a 64K block could be done in 50ms or so... This would give you a 16MB virtual space, minus a bit for system code and such.

 

If you were really going to do this, you would probably want a separate processor to convert the data as it is downloaded into memory, particularly the graphics. Once it is in 'psuedo-data' format, the main system can mainipulate it easily. This shouldn't be too difficult since the data input/output is serial anyway.

 

Bob

 

 

 

The 65816 doesn't have features to support virtual memory which would make that difficult and swapping to/from a CF card would not be very fast.

 

A simple text based web browser like Lynx would work much faster.

[peteym5]

The Atari 8-bit was never really meant to be an internet accessing computer system. It would require VBXE, running this 65816 running at 14mhz with a few megs of ram to get a simple web browser going. You need SVGA graphics or better and a good processor. To me, its easier to get a PC or MAC for the internet. Atari 8-bit is really for playing games.

 

I am still looking for information if someone is building these boards and how much they be willing to sell them for.

[DamageX]

The Atari 8-bit was never really meant to be an internet accessing computer system.

I can't speak to what the A8 was "meant" for but you should remember that the internet wasn't always CSS, javascript, and streaming video. The booklet that came with my 800XL specifically mentions going online with Compuserve and The Source. The WWW didn't yet exist.

 

I have run lynx on a PC-XT compatible with 640KB so a beefed-up A8 could do just as well. A lot of modern webpages would be a lost cause but a few would be usable. Creating Atari-optimized pages is a nice idea, I recall the C64-types working on something similar (probably related to the resurrection of their q-link service). FTP, wget, instant messaging could also be useful.

 

If the only way you have to connect the A8 to a network is through a PC with APE then most of this stuff is redundant but with a PPP connection or something else then it would be l337

[andym00]

I can't speak to what the A8 was "meant" for but you should remember that the internet wasn't always CSS, javascript, and streaming video. The booklet that came with my 800XL specifically mentions going online with Compuserve and The Source. The WWW didn't yet exist.

 

I have run lynx on a PC-XT compatible with 640KB so a beefed-up A8 could do just as well. A lot of modern webpages would be a lost cause but a few would be usable. Creating Atari-optimized pages is a nice idea, I recall the C64-types working on something similar (probably related to the resurrection of their q-link service). FTP, wget, instant messaging could also be useful.

 

If the only way you have to connect the A8 to a network is through a PC with APE then most of this stuff is redundant but with a PPP connection or something else then it would be l337

 

There's the Singular browser on the 64.. Supports CSS at least..

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=47920

There's source available as well..

 

edit: Oops, later version here (no screenshot though)

Edited October 3, 2009 by andym00

[atariksi]

Even with 512K your browsing the web will be limited. There are pictures on web pages larger than that.

 

I think it would be more interesting to port the Unix like OS from the IIgs as a development environment.

At one time there was a C cross compiler that would run naively if you can still find the source.

I'm not sure how complete it was though.

 

Is there a way to do internet on IIGS? I just got one from some garage sale but most of the disks I put in ask for some PRODOS and I think I have a separate disk with PRODOS but then how do you run the other disk?

[+Allan]

Even with 512K your browsing the web will be limited. There are pictures on web pages larger than that.

 

I think it would be more interesting to port the Unix like OS from the IIgs as a development environment.

At one time there was a C cross compiler that would run naively if you can still find the source.

I'm not sure how complete it was though.

 

Is there a way to do internet on IIGS? I just got one from some garage sale but most of the disks I put in ask for some PRODOS and I think I have a separate disk with PRODOS but then how do you run the other disk?

Yes, there are NIC cards and all the software including a browser available on the Net.

 

Allan

[+poobah]

Just as an aside,

internet != www

plenty of text only uses for that internet connection, that an A8 should be able to handle.

Edited October 3, 2009 by poobah

[JamesD]

Is there a way to do internet on IIGS? I just got one from some garage sale but most of the disks I put in ask for some PRODOS and I think I have a separate disk with PRODOS but then how do you run the other disk?

Yes, there are NIC cards and all the software including a browser available on the Net.

 

Allan

You can find the network cards here:

http://www.a2retrosystems.com/

 

You probably need to boot with ProDOS and then load the software.

Try asking about specific programs on the forums here:

http://www.applefritter.com/

[sl0re]

The 65816 doesn't have features to support virtual memory which would make that difficult and swapping to/from a CF card would not be very fast.

 

A simple text based web browser like Lynx would work much faster.

 

Right, there's no way it could support anything like the normal browsing experience...picture size and color depth being only two of the many issues. With a VBXE involved, then maybe sorta.

 

But I think a nice text browser would certainly be possible, including clickable links, etc. It would be fun to develop a specialized subset of html for use with old 8 bits...and *hosting* such a web site would be fun too. We could have a sub-web of our own If we see a normal browser coming in we could kick them out with a rude message to get a *real* computer.

 

Some pictures / jpegs could be treated as a sort of clickable link too. Plop a 'Pic' notation where they go and if someone clicks on it; the atari converts the picture (probably full screen). Once your done you close it and go back to text mode.

[falcon_]

Just as an aside,

internet != www

plenty of text only uses for that internet connection, that an A8 should be able to handle.

 

Hi all! I heartily second poobah here. To try and fit a WWW on an 8bit

now is just not rational IMHO. I'm all for some net connectivity, but please

no WWW wedge. Lynx might be ok - I used Lynx in the late 90s when I didn't

have access to better, on an 800XL no less.

 

OTOH - I do like the idea of some innovation of designing an "8-bit Web" strictly

for 8-bit computers. It ought to be designed so any 8bit (uh and its owner) can

happily traverse any part of it. Lynx is a good conceptual starting point.

If I were to think of the design, I would expect a binary format, not the textual

html formats, they use too much room and processing! Basic image viewing should

be possible like someone else mentioned in this thread, click to view. Specifically

design it for 8-bit level, flexible display (for Atari8, Apple2, C64, Spectrum, etc),

and of course it could easily support an "8bit News" RSS-like system. A mini-forum

or chat system is easy. A fine grained repository system could be really useful, for

things like code-snippets or info-snippets that people write for each other on the spot.

 

To get back on topic, I really love the looks of the XL7, Bob! One suggestion I

can think of. Could you include at least a header for more memory? Even if it

required some more logic. 512K is a lot of ram on an 8bit, but some will probably

want to do 'crazy things' with it. hehehe.

 

It's part of the geno-type of the 8bit hacker. They love to go beyond the edge,

no matter where that is.

 

Peace!

[+bob1200xl]

I can find 2MB SRAMs but they are 3v devices. Hanging more SRAM on it wouldn't be terribly difficult, logic-wise. Be nice if they just made some 10ns SRAM in 8MB or 16MB sizes.

 

Bob

 

 

 

Just as an aside,

internet != www

plenty of text only uses for that internet connection, that an A8 should be able to handle.

 

Hi all! I heartily second poobah here. To try and fit a WWW on an 8bit

now is just not rational IMHO. I'm all for some net connectivity, but please

no WWW wedge. Lynx might be ok - I used Lynx in the late 90s when I didn't

have access to better, on an 800XL no less.

 

OTOH - I do like the idea of some innovation of designing an "8-bit Web" strictly

for 8-bit computers. It ought to be designed so any 8bit (uh and its owner) can

happily traverse any part of it. Lynx is a good conceptual starting point.

If I were to think of the design, I would expect a binary format, not the textual

html formats, they use too much room and processing! Basic image viewing should

be possible like someone else mentioned in this thread, click to view. Specifically

design it for 8-bit level, flexible display (for Atari8, Apple2, C64, Spectrum, etc),

and of course it could easily support an "8bit News" RSS-like system. A mini-forum

or chat system is easy. A fine grained repository system could be really useful, for

things like code-snippets or info-snippets that people write for each other on the spot.

 

To get back on topic, I really love the looks of the XL7, Bob! One suggestion I

can think of. Could you include at least a header for more memory? Even if it

required some more logic. 512K is a lot of ram on an 8bit, but some will probably

want to do 'crazy things' with it. hehehe.

 

It's part of the geno-type of the 8bit hacker. They love to go beyond the edge,

no matter where that is.

 

Peace!

[sloopy]

so is this project moving forward? or has it died as is? i would be interested in this, even if i have to build my own...

 

sloopy.

[+bob1200xl]

Build your own? You don't need to go that far... The project is pretty much floating around my computer room, looking for a place to take root.

 

What are you looking for?

 

Bob

 

 

 

so is this project moving forward? or has it died as is? i would be interested in this, even if i have to build my own...

 

sloopy.

[sloopy]

i am looking for a 7.16Mhz 65816 in my 800xl :') and what do you mean by 'a place to take root'? i have a '816 in my machine now but it just runs at stock speed... would like something faster, but dont really want to reinvent the wheel, and this 'project' seems to be the most reasonable possibility right now...

 

sloopy.

 

Build your own? You don't need to go that far... The project is pretty much floating around my computer room, looking for a place to take root.

 

What are you looking for?

 

Bob

 

 

 

so is this project moving forward? or has it died as is? i would be interested in this, even if i have to build my own...

 

sloopy.

[danwinslow]

Quite a few people are interested in this........Bob, you know you wanna quit work and devote yourself to this. Give in!