+bob1200xl Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 The two '816s that I have are both 7.16mhz, one with linear memory and one without. With minor effort, I could probably get something for you if you only want the basic hack but you would only have something you could play with. (it's about 300% faster than stock) Later versions would supercede the current ones. I think your other problem is that it may not fit in an 800XL/600XL because it hits the keyboard. Bob i am looking for a 7.16Mhz 65816 in my 800xl :') and what do you mean by 'a place to take root'? i have a '816 in my machine now but it just runs at stock speed... would like something faster, but dont really want to reinvent the wheel, and this 'project' seems to be the most reasonable possibility right now... sloopy. Build your own? You don't need to go that far... The project is pretty much floating around my computer room, looking for a place to take root. What are you looking for? Bob so is this project moving forward? or has it died as is? i would be interested in this, even if i have to build my own... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Greetings Bob, yeah actually i think i want to put it in my 130XE which uses an external kb, i just want one to play with, with linear mem (doesnt need much, i have couple 62256's sitting around i could use, so just sockets would be fine) how much $$$ would you want? i am not too rich (currently on unemployment) so let me know... also what are the commmercial prospects for this? is someone going to take up the torch to make it into a full product? thanks, sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 The 512K memory only costs $6 or $7. It would take a lot of 62256s to make 512K... What kind/speed/how many 65816s do you have? Bob Greetings Bob, yeah actually i think i want to put it in my 130XE which uses an external kb, i just want one to play with, with linear mem (doesnt need much, i have couple 62256's sitting around i could use, so just sockets would be fine) how much $$$ would you want? i am not too rich (currently on unemployment) so let me know... also what are the commmercial prospects for this? is someone going to take up the torch to make it into a full product? thanks, sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Where is the "write-up" on this project for those who'd be interested in building it themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 Anyone who wants to make one at this stage of the game would have to be a pretty good hardware guy. My write-ups tend to be a bit skimpy, with a few errors thrown in. ABBUC has one with the docs and I haven't heard any success stories from them. Know anyone who could do this? (or, would want to?) Bob Where is the "write-up" on this project for those who'd be interested in building it themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 i have ran on less, i would be interested in the info, the only '816 i have is a 4Mhz spec one from a IIgs, but i dol have a GAL programmer, (need to get a few GALs i am out right now...) but it doesnt seem that hard... big thing is doing the GAL right... i am working on another project right now, and the 816 would be a fine addition to it and probly would help with it... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 And this is the problem... You would have to get one or two 65816s, a couple of memory chips, and be able to program Atmel 1504 CPLDs. Along with all the little pieces of hardware (sockets, pins, etc.) to go with it. Here are some files that build a 7mhz machine. They are not exact, but should give you an idea as to how the 816 interleaves with the stock Atari. One is for the GAL that times the system, one for the extended memory, one for the MMU PAL in the Atari, and one is the PCB. The next design will pull the MMU into the CPLD (an Atmel 1504) so we can (hopefully) clock up to 14mhz. The logic itself does not change, to any great extent. Take a look at them and tell me how useful they are. Bob i have ran on less, i would be interested in the info, the only '816 i have is a 4Mhz spec one from a IIgs, but i dol have a GAL programmer, (need to get a few GALs i am out right now...) but it doesnt seem that hard... big thing is doing the GAL right... i am working on another project right now, and the 816 would be a fine addition to it and probly would help with it... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 oh, yeah... the files... MMU51.zip Bob And this is the problem... You would have to get one or two 65816s, a couple of memory chips, and be able to program Atmel 1504 CPLDs. Along with all the little pieces of hardware (sockets, pins, etc.) to go with it. Here are some files that build a 7mhz machine. They are not exact, but should give you an idea as to how the 816 interleaves with the stock Atari. One is for the GAL that times the system, one for the extended memory, one for the MMU PAL in the Atari, and one is the PCB. The next design will pull the MMU into the CPLD (an Atmel 1504) so we can (hopefully) clock up to 14mhz. The logic itself does not change, to any great extent. Take a look at them and tell me how useful they are. Bob i have ran on less, i would be interested in the info, the only '816 i have is a 4Mhz spec one from a IIgs, but i dol have a GAL programmer, (need to get a few GALs i am out right now...) but it doesnt seem that hard... big thing is doing the GAL right... i am working on another project right now, and the 816 would be a fine addition to it and probly would help with it... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Hi Bob- Do you believe it is feasible to create a 7MHz (800XL) board using point-to-point wiring? Or do you have an layout image suitable for someone else to make a limited number of boards of one of your design that would fit into the 800XL? IIRC, you did have a "2nd generation 600/800XL board." (?) Perhaps "a bird in the hand..." -Larry And this is the problem... You would have to get one or two 65816s, a couple of memory chips, and be able to program Atmel 1504 CPLDs. Along with all the little pieces of hardware (sockets, pins, etc.) to go with it. Here are some files that build a 7mhz machine. They are not exact, but should give you an idea as to how the 816 interleaves with the stock Atari. One is for the GAL that times the system, one for the extended memory, one for the MMU PAL in the Atari, and one is the PCB. The next design will pull the MMU into the CPLD (an Atmel 1504) so we can (hopefully) clock up to 14mhz. The logic itself does not change, to any great extent. Take a look at them and tell me how useful they are. Bob i have ran on less, i would be interested in the info, the only '816 i have is a 4Mhz spec one from a IIgs, but i dol have a GAL programmer, (need to get a few GALs i am out right now...) but it doesnt seem that hard... big thing is doing the GAL right... i am working on another project right now, and the 816 would be a fine addition to it and probly would help with it... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted November 29, 2009 Author Share Posted November 29, 2009 I have many, many point-to-point projects worse than this, (dual ANTIC, 80 col, etc.) but that isn't a good reason to do it in wire. Most of your 'wiring changes' will be in the CPLD, anyway. I guess the answer is no. What I have needs tweaking. Bob Hi Bob- Do you believe it is feasible to create a 7MHz (800XL) board using point-to-point wiring? Or do you have an layout image suitable for someone else to make a limited number of boards of one of your design that would fit into the 800XL? IIRC, you did have a "2nd generation 600/800XL board." (?) Perhaps "a bird in the hand..." -Larry And this is the problem... You would have to get one or two 65816s, a couple of memory chips, and be able to program Atmel 1504 CPLDs. Along with all the little pieces of hardware (sockets, pins, etc.) to go with it. Here are some files that build a 7mhz machine. They are not exact, but should give you an idea as to how the 816 interleaves with the stock Atari. One is for the GAL that times the system, one for the extended memory, one for the MMU PAL in the Atari, and one is the PCB. The next design will pull the MMU into the CPLD (an Atmel 1504) so we can (hopefully) clock up to 14mhz. The logic itself does not change, to any great extent. Take a look at them and tell me how useful they are. Bob i have ran on less, i would be interested in the info, the only '816 i have is a 4Mhz spec one from a IIgs, but i dol have a GAL programmer, (need to get a few GALs i am out right now...) but it doesnt seem that hard... big thing is doing the GAL right... i am working on another project right now, and the 816 would be a fine addition to it and probly would help with it... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I have many, many point-to-point projects worse than this, (dual ANTIC, 80 col, etc.) but that isn't a good reason to do it in wire. Most of your 'wiring changes' will be in the CPLD, anyway. I guess the answer is no. What I have needs tweaking. Bob Hi Bob- Do you believe it is feasible to create a 7MHz (800XL) board using point-to-point wiring? Or do you have an layout image suitable for someone else to make a limited number of boards of one of your design that would fit into the 800XL? IIRC, you did have a "2nd generation 600/800XL board." (?) Perhaps "a bird in the hand..." -Larry And this is the problem... You would have to get one or two 65816s, a couple of memory chips, and be able to program Atmel 1504 CPLDs. Along with all the little pieces of hardware (sockets, pins, etc.) to go with it. Here are some files that build a 7mhz machine. They are not exact, but should give you an idea as to how the 816 interleaves with the stock Atari. One is for the GAL that times the system, one for the extended memory, one for the MMU PAL in the Atari, and one is the PCB. The next design will pull the MMU into the CPLD (an Atmel 1504) so we can (hopefully) clock up to 14mhz. The logic itself does not change, to any great extent. Take a look at them and tell me how useful they are. Bob i have ran on less, i would be interested in the info, the only '816 i have is a 4Mhz spec one from a IIgs, but i dol have a GAL programmer, (need to get a few GALs i am out right now...) but it doesnt seem that hard... big thing is doing the GAL right... i am working on another project right now, and the 816 would be a fine addition to it and probly would help with it... sloopy. I would be more interested in the dual ANTIC if someone produces it and doesn't require much soldering. I suppose it has it's own memory otherwise too many DMA cycles per scanline to allow CPU to do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Yes, the second ANTIC uses its own memory. I like the idea because we don't have to learn anything new in order to program it. The only sticky spot is trying to do 80 columns. It could be done in graphics mode, I suppose, but then you would need the faster CPU. The only way to do something like that without much soldering would be to sync up two whole systems. Let's make it faster, first. Then we can think about a dual-core Atari. Bob I would be more interested in the dual ANTIC if someone produces it and doesn't require much soldering. I suppose it has it's own memory otherwise too many DMA cycles per scanline to allow CPU to do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) WDC 65816 1400+ X2 :'D sloopy. Yes, the second ANTIC uses its own memory. I like the idea because we don't have to learn anything new in order to program it. The only sticky spot is trying to do 80 columns. It could be done in graphics mode, I suppose, but then you would need the faster CPU. The only way to do something like that without much soldering would be to sync up two whole systems. Let's make it faster, first. Then we can think about a dual-core Atari. Bob Edited November 30, 2009 by sloopy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 I'm bumping this topic from 10 years ago, because unless I'm mistaken I believe this project could yield a far cheaper 65816 accelerator then what we currently see in the Rapidus. Because at nearly $240 with shipping from Poland to the US, the Rapidus is too pricey in my opinion for what it brings. And at that price it's unlikely that we'll see the number of units installed to justify significant software support. Yes I know this project isn't as fast, but at 4x the normal A8 speed combined with an improved instruction set, large linear memory addressing capability and 16bit processing, this is nothing to sneeze at. It's my understanding from chatting with Bob a while back, that the 7 Mhz prototype was actually very stable, and that the 14 Mhz (XL14) one that followed was not. I think it would be cool to continue this discussion, and even cooler if we can get Bob to weigh in on this and tell us what he's been up to with this project, and any other cool stuff he's been doing. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Would switching to QFP TSOP have a significant cost saving? I've been looking into it recently and several board outfits are offering board manufacture/parts placement. I have not got a cost estimate but I figure you may know off the top of your head. Something like a QFP w65c81 + TSOP 512k SCRAM + logic chip would take up the same space as a 40 pin DIP. Just an op: At some point in time, the way we do things with socketed DIPs just costs too much. Same hold true for the assembly, lots of people would never get it done if it involved to much work with soldering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted March 30, 2019 Author Share Posted March 30, 2019 It's a little scary developing with flat pack devices. I can manage to get one mounted but replacing it? fergetabodit... Socketed DIPs are warm-fuzzies for us old guys, I suppose if the costs were really low, so we could consider the whole board as a FRU, it could work. All this new stuff makes me dizzy. 0.8mm? That's crazy. If God wanted us to work on things that small, She would have given us bigger eyes and smaller fingers! Bob 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 It's a little scary developing with flat pack devices. I can manage to get one mounted but replacing it? fergetabodit... Socketed DIPs are warm-fuzzies for us old guys, I suppose if the costs were really low, so we could consider the whole board as a FRU, it could work. All this new stuff makes me dizzy. 0.8mm? That's crazy. If God wanted us to work on things that small, She would have given us bigger eyes and smaller fingers! Bob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Hi Bob, Nice to see you chime in . So getting back to this project, do you think it's stable enough to go to production? If so I believe we have the means to make it so. If not, what would it take to get it there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 An Incognito 800 Accelerator / VBXE card sure would be nice. We could grab any signals necessary from the PBI. Of course with appropriate pass-through so the PBI is still accessible. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted March 31, 2019 Author Share Posted March 31, 2019 Hi Bob, Nice to see you chime in . So getting back to this project, do you think it's stable enough to go to production? If so I believe we have the means to make it so. If not, what would it take to get it there? I did the XL7 (a 7.16mhz 65816) as a proof of concept. It worked for the most part so I jumped into an XL14. That turned into an endless sea of landmines. Too many features, critical clock mis-timings, IC compatibility... running at 14mhz was going to be quite a challenge. Then, I packed everything in 1000 boxes and moved. Anyway, the XL7 was not thoroughly tested, so I can't say how stable it is. I would also like to add a CF card interface to it. We could knock out a few samples and have folks test them. Get an idea where we are. Bob 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 800 CPU CARD! Edit: W/RAM. Edited March 31, 2019 by Kyle22 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted March 31, 2019 Author Share Posted March 31, 2019 uuhhhh... unfortunately the wiring/PCB in the 400/800 is not heavy enough to run over 1.79mhz.Little bits just squirt out all over the place - makes a mess, and the dog barks. Sorry. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 It's a little scary developing with flat pack devices. I can manage to get one mounted but replacing it? fergetabodit... Socketed DIPs are warm-fuzzies for us old guys, I suppose if the costs were really low, so we could consider the whole board as a FRU, it could work. All this new stuff makes me dizzy. 0.8mm? That's crazy. If God wanted us to work on things that small, She would have given us bigger eyes and smaller fingers! Bob I've been buying adapter after adapter and watching YouTube videos. My project could come to a screeching halt if I end up burning up all my parts trying to learn how to solder them. Definitely a cart/horse thing going on: If I want to use the latest/greatest chips, no choice but go with the new small footprint devices. I still ~remember a quote you made years ago, something like board real estate is really expensive. I could be laboring under a misconception. Thought was solder the 44-48 pin devices into adapters with .1 spacing so I can prototype w/o having to do board run. If I can get something that works, then think about doing a board run. I think something like the new 512k RAM module may be the future. I picked up some W65C816 in QFP and they are about the size of my thumbnail. I'm pretty sure Lotharek is not soldering these by hand, too pretty. At some point in time the old way, like the RAMBO desoldering 8-9 chips, replacing them and adding jumpers, is not going to be as effective as going with modern alternatives. It's just a question of how cost effective it will be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 uuhhhh... unfortunately the wiring/PCB in the 400/800 is not heavy enough to run over 1.79mhz.Little bits just squirt out all over the place - makes a mess, and the dog barks. I'm not sure I understand the theoretical strategy here which imposes these limitations. It's appreciated that the entire 'legacy' bus would need to run at 1.79MHz (which is to say, any base RAM and ROM, IO, etc), but surely this would not hamper the ability of RAM and ROM on a 65C816 CPU card to run at 7.16MHz, 20MHz... or whatever. This is the method employed by Rapidus, which can optionally accelerate segments of base RAM by mapping its own 'fast RAM' at the same address. Providing the accelerator board can supplant the system RAM in the same way as Rapidus, there is no need for high speed signalling to extend beyond the CPU card itself. When the CPU accesses anything which isn't actually on the accelerator board itself, access happens at 1.79MHz. When the CPU accesses RAM/ROM on the accelerator board, it happens at full speed. One could probably go further and combine the functionality of Incognito, VBXE and a 65C816 all on the CPU card itself, which would remove even more restrictions. Of course, such a device would likely be more expensive than Rapidus. If the intention is to try and run the entire Atari bus at a multiple of the base clock, I admit to being quite surprised. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 FWIW, the Apple IIc Plus implements it's higher speed using cache.By replacing the RAM, CPU, and clock with faster versions, people have gotten them running at 14 MHz.As others have said, that could be done with just a 65C02.There are definitely enough new features on the 65816 to justify using it over the 65C02, but then it seems a shame not to add more RAM. The CoCo 3 (and soon 1/2) have 2 MB upgrades (already supported by OS-9), the C64 SuperCPU supports up to 16 MB, and 4 MB or larger upgrades are common for the IIgs.With 2 MB fitting on a single small chip (look at the Boomerang board for the CoCo), they don't take up much space either.You would be looking at surface mount though. With a template, solder paste, and the proper oven, it's so not terrible to do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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