atariksi Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I Think the Atari 8-bit would win over the C64. Hey! If anyone is interested in selling a C64 or Atari 8-bit computer, im looking for one. I have a couple of 8-bit Ataris that just need a chip replacement to get them going. I have an Atari 400 that has a bad 6502B (which is socketed) and another one I haven't narrowed down yet. Ebay should get you a good price if you risk it and buy it "AS IS". Anyone know an easy way to get a 6502B? Is there one socketed in another hardware that's readily available? This page on Best Electronics site lists the 6502B: 6502B (400 / 800 / Happy Upgrades) CO14377 $6.95 Can't beat 'em for service Thanks. I have a bunch of hardware lying around not being used so if I can get a 6502 off of some them, that would be preferred. Interestingly, out of the many Atari machines I fixed, the problem was either ROM chip or 6502. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 What I will say about the Amiga is the colour resolution/bitplane depth was an arbitrary cut-off, there was no technical reason why they couldn't use a little more silicon and increase it to 8 bit planes at the time, time and companies ... This from a C64 related guy? Actually, a little more silicon put into vic, and the world had seen the first homecomputer with real colour graphics. A little more silicon , and the world would have had a real synthesizer in this computer A little more silicon and the CPU was fast enough to drive it all ... Sometimes I really wish neither Commodore OR Atari had bought Amiga and they had the funds to market and sell the machine themselves. Wrong thinking. Everyone awaited the AMIGA through Commodore, because they had seen the AMIGA as the C64 successor. The hype around the C64 sold also the ecs/ocs Amigas. In the 1st years it was also handled like this. Many people did recordings from the SID and used Paula to make 4 channel SID music, instead of doing clean music. Seeing the AMIGA as a co work of ATARI and Commodore knowledge, they really should have sticked together and to push the market. I'd rather like to have a "Atarimore" or "Commotari" computer today than the Windows PC. But, as it seems, only Intel and Microsoft did it the correct way. My point about the more silicon for the Amiga chipset is based on the fact that the modification to one of the custom chips to get from 6 to 8 bitplanes was very minor and Amiga Computers Inc were out of money , the choices were $1 per share from Atari $4 from Commodore OR BANKRUPCY. When Commodore got their hands on it they stopped all additional work and even went on to remove things...like first the 512k memory to 256k and then they were told to remove the sockets for the RAM chips. Pretty bad days and if anything the Amiga would have arrived with a better specification pretty much the same time if they didn't need Commodore/Atari money that's the fact and what all the original designers say on video interviews. Like I said if the original designers of the Amiga hardware and firmware were left to their own devices the machine would have been much better and closer to the original design. Multitasking also was Amiga Computers Inc's idea anyway so even the OS would have been as good or better than the version 1 etc. As for the C64...extra time would make no difference as it was already completed as an arcade motherboard and then the project was shelved AFTER completion. So the C64 time scale had nothing to do with the specification of the machine because the C64 design work was not involved in VIC-II or SID or CPU speed of the 6510, these were already designed and finished as a working package...the rest was adding I/O and BASIC/KERNAL and RAM addressing blah blah. Steve Jobs (the idiot that he is) gave Bill Gates a protype Macintosh, HE is the reason Windows exists and HE is the reason you now have Windows Vista/XP on 95% of the world's machines, blame Steve Jobs not Bill Gates...without Windows MS would be dead by 1995, and without a prototype Macintosh to hack and copy in X86 code the would be no Windows V1 in mid 80s. DOS was going to die, but luckily for Bill Gates he had access to a Mac to rip-off the GUI and that's all the world's businesses wanted really and he needed to stay in the lead on x86 hardware even though it was shit PS VIC-20 was nothing more than a diversion for Atari + Japanese home computer companies, it was only their to keep the engineers busy while the C64 was being finished to prevent the machine being copied. VIC-20 served it's role nicely, there wasn't much choice for a cheap machine and you can actually play SID tunes on the VIC custom chips nicely and you can even emulate the SID well enough to play Rob Hubbard tunes using 90% CPU time so hardly as bad as anything else for the price (the Atari 400 was 2-3 more to buy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 It's only a gayfest, if you think it is. Lots of us are retro computing, working on micro controllers, running Linux and doing lots of interesting stuff that's not all too different from those times. What has that got to do with my comment? The Nintendo DS or Wii consoles....which my comment 'gayfest' was specifically referring to these two lame games consoles with inferior processing power than the previous generation of their rival's machines AND YET THEY ARE KILLING THE MARKET The point is the way things are going there might not be a PS4 and the only reason another Xbox will exist is because dumb idiots made Microsoft into the home computer/business computer operating system monopoly it is. How sad is that? We lost all innovation in home computing HARDWARE AND OS SOFTWARE when the last Amiga R&D workshop closed after the demise of Acorn and Atari before it. And if Nintendo win the console wars then we are screwed again...the worst product becomes the 95% dominant product.....just as it did in the home computer market. PS If you don't believe me look where the twinkling stars are on the Wii's Super Mario Galaxy game cover on the titles....yes that's right they spell out the following "U R MR GAY" haha classic and yet so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 PS If you don't believe me look where the twinkling stars are on the Wii's Super Mario Galaxy game cover on the titles....yes that's right they spell out the following "U R MR GAY" haha classic and yet so true. I really lauged out loud when I saw this. Ha ha ha! I don't have a Wii, but then I have yet to upgrade from PS2/Xbox/Gamecube. I do have a DS though. Is there gayness to that? Please reveal any other gayness you run across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Oh yes, please do bring all the gayness to the table you can find. It's scary isn't it? Seriously, that's how it always goes. The best tech never, ever wins. All the more reason to enjoy both open computing and retro computing on your terms, your way. I personally don't care if we get a PS4. Would much rather be playing home brew and doing just what wood_jl is doing; namely, collecting and connecting up older gear to play fun games and share the experience with others. It is a much better scene compared to most of modern gaming right now, gay or not. ...and my comment was directed at the fact that not everybody thinks that's gay. Like most things labeled "gay", gayness is in the eye of the person calling "gay!". No worries on any of that. Like the gay thing, this is only a problem, if you think it is. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 This isn't gay, but it's more in the spirit of the original poster's comparing games between A8 and C64 Anybody ever played "Ms Pac Man" on Commodore 64? It's surprisingly good. Dare I say, I like it better than the Atari8 version. It's a little more arcade-like, if memory serves. It is also DIFFICULT!! The red ghost gets really fast, and is faster than you are - even when you're NOT eating dots. This makes it quite challenging. I can not get to the third intermission, and it's been a long time since I have played a version of MsPac and had to say that. I enjoy the challenge! I haven't played the arcade in so long I can't remember how difficult it it. The C64 version of Donkey Kong is pretty fun, too. When I first tried it, I turned my nose up at it, because the Atari8 version is - in my mind - the definitive version. I mean, I played so much A8 DK growing up that the arcade seems strange to me. Thank god for MAME so I can remember what it was like. Mario (or "Jumpman") moves slower in the C64 version than A8. I thought this was a drag, but the arcade Mario is pretty slow too. C64 DK also is the only other version I am aware of that has the "pie factory" (or whatever) in it. However, it seems in this pie factory screen, you can't jump from the center of the screen across the relatively large gaps to either of the 2 little ledges on the edge of the screen. This is the only version of DK I've noticed that. Anybody a whiz at C64 DK? Dare I say, I still prefer the magnificent A8 version, but this is fun, and kicks the Coleco's ass. These are two "Atarisoft" titles, BTW, so of course Atari gets credit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I have played the C64 "Ms Pac Man", and you are spot on. Great port of a fun title! IMHO, it's one of the best out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Early Apple II ?IIRC, the 6502 in the 400/800 is just off-the-shelf, whereas the later machines have Sally which is the specific model for Atari with the DMA line rather than the older off-chip bus decoupling method. 400/800s also use a non-standard 6502A or 6502B processor. These two versions were modified from a standard 1MHz 6520, to allow for higher frequencies: 2MHz for 6502A, 3MHZ for 6502B. Source How many different 6502s are there? I think one Apple model has a 6502C. No Apple computer ever used a 6502C. Edited July 6, 2009 by Kr0tki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Early Apple II ?IIRC, the 6502 in the 400/800 is just off-the-shelf, whereas the later machines have Sally which is the specific model for Atari with the DMA line rather than the older off-chip bus decoupling method. 400/800s also use a non-standard 6502A or 6502B processor. These two versions were modified from a standard 1MHz 6520, to allow for higher frequencies: 2MHz for 6502A, 3MHZ for 6502B. Source How many different 6502s are there? I think one Apple model has a 6502C. No Apple computer ever used a 6502C. I believe the Apple IIc used the 65C02 (cmos). That's a lot of "C"s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I believe the Apple IIc used the 65C02 (cmos). That's a lot of "C"s And the Enhanced IIe used it as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Early Apple II ?IIRC, the 6502 in the 400/800 is just off-the-shelf, whereas the later machines have Sally which is the specific model for Atari with the DMA line rather than the older off-chip bus decoupling method. 400/800s also use a non-standard 6502A or 6502B processor. These two versions were modified from a standard 1MHz 6520, to allow for higher frequencies: 2MHz for 6502A, 3MHZ for 6502B. Source How many different 6502s are there? I think one Apple model has a 6502C. No Apple computer ever used a 6502C. That link you gave is not English. It can't be non-standard as I just plugged in a 6502 from Commodore 1541 Disk drive into the A400 CPU card and A400 works great. So they must be using same 6502. I tried it with River-raid, Spy Hunter and few other games to make sure. http://www.krishnasoft.com/A400CPU.jpg http://www.krishnasoft.com/A400MB.jpg http://www.krishnasoft.com/C1541MB.jpg I hope it didn't slow down the A400 to 1.02Mhz but I know it disabled the fast loaders on my C64. Some Apple folks may have upgraded for the better 6502s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 This isn't gay, but it's more in the spirit of the original poster's comparing games between A8 and C64 Anybody ever played "Ms Pac Man" on Commodore 64? It's surprisingly good. Dare I say, I like it better than the Atari8 version. It's a little more arcade-like, if memory serves. It is also DIFFICULT!! The red ghost gets really fast, and is faster than you are - even when you're NOT eating dots. This makes it quite challenging. I can not get to the third intermission, and it's been a long time since I have played a version of MsPac and had to say that. I enjoy the challenge! I haven't played the arcade in so long I can't remember how difficult it it. The C64 version of Donkey Kong is pretty fun, too. When I first tried it, I turned my nose up at it, because the Atari8 version is - in my mind - the definitive version. I mean, I played so much A8 DK growing up that the arcade seems strange to me. Thank god for MAME so I can remember what it was like. Mario (or "Jumpman") moves slower in the C64 version than A8. I thought this was a drag, but the arcade Mario is pretty slow too. C64 DK also is the only other version I am aware of that has the "pie factory" (or whatever) in it. However, it seems in this pie factory screen, you can't jump from the center of the screen across the relatively large gaps to either of the 2 little ledges on the edge of the screen. This is the only version of DK I've noticed that. Anybody a whiz at C64 DK? Dare I say, I still prefer the magnificent A8 version, but this is fun, and kicks the Coleco's ass. These are two "Atarisoft" titles, BTW, so of course Atari gets credit! The problem with Coleco's games that I have played (like Popeye, DK, etc.) is collision detection is terrible (when compared to A8 versions) especially when they rely on software sprites. Atari 7800 Ms. Pacman is better than A800 version but Atari 7800 DK is inferior to A800 version so some games just depend on the coder and not on hardware behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 It can't be non-standard as I just plugged in a 6502 from Commodore 1541 Disk drive into the A400 CPU card and A400 works great. So they must be using same 6502. I tried it with River-raid, Spy Hunter and few other games to make sure. If that 6502 was capable of emotion, it would be quite happy right now. After many years of slumming it, toil, and an uncertain future - redemption in a decent piece of hardware. It only took a quarter-century, but it got there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) That link you gave is not English. Well, I'm glad that you noticed. It can't be non-standard as I just plugged in a 6502 from Commodore 1541 Disk drive into the A400 CPU card and A400 works great. So they must be using same 6502. I tried it with River-raid, Spy Hunter and few other games to make sure. Judging from other photos I've found (as the ones you provided are too blurry to have any value) I'm assuming that you might actually have a 6502AD in your 1541, which is also a 2MHz version. Is it true? Anyway, "variation" might be a better word instead of "non-standard" - the 6502A and B weren't ordered specifically by Atari in a way 6502C was. Some Apple folks may have upgraded for the better 6502s. But still not with 6502C. It's Atari-specific, pin-incompatible, and there are better options. Edited July 6, 2009 by Kr0tki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Oh yes, please do bring all the gayness to the table you can find. It's scary isn't it? Seriously, that's how it always goes. The best tech never, ever wins. All the more reason to enjoy both open computing and retro computing on your terms, your way. I personally don't care if we get a PS4. Would much rather be playing home brew and doing just what wood_jl is doing; namely, collecting and connecting up older gear to play fun games and share the experience with others. It is a much better scene compared to most of modern gaming right now, gay or not. ...and my comment was directed at the fact that not everybody thinks that's gay. Like most things labeled "gay", gayness is in the eye of the person calling "gay!". No worries on any of that. Like the gay thing, this is only a problem, if you think it is. Cheers! But in the UK the best tech did win...twice! First the C64 eventually wiped the floor with the Amstrad/Spectrum/MSX in the UK, ditto the Amiga was king by late 1990 and unstoppable. In both cases overall the winner was the best package. Yes the Archimedes had a more powerful CPU than the Amiga but that was it! I do care if all we get is Wii-Fit and Brain Training for the DS for another decade, that's the day I stop buying any new hardware except PCs to run my business on for the lowest price. Sure the retrogames are great but then so is Battlefield 2 on 64 player multiplayer and Wipeout HD and Colin McRea 4 on xbox1. Every generation has something to bring to the table, my rose tinted glasses went AWOL a long time ago when I upgraded to vampiric Raybans haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I do care if all we get is Wii-Fit and Brain Training for the DS for another decade, that's the day I stop buying any new hardware except PCs to run my business on for the lowest price. Drink the Wii Kool-aid. Put on a tiara and tutu, with a "hello kitty" t-shirt, and float on up to that balance board! Pirouette on the balance board, throwing glitter as you spin, and call out "WEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 That link you gave is not English. Well, I'm glad that you noticed. ... But you didn't notice that some websites do indicate a Apple model having a 6502c and I'm not relating this to Atari XL/XE CPU: http://www.computissimo.ch/v-all/apple.htm http://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/19/business...;pagewanted=all Even some on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...alenotsupported So my point, it's not the same 6502 as Atari 400. It can't be non-standard as I just plugged in a 6502 from Commodore 1541 Disk drive into the A400 CPU card and A400 works great. So they must be using same 6502. I tried it with River-raid, Spy Hunter and few other games to make sure. >Judging from other photos I've found (as the ones you provided are too blurry to have any value) I'm assuming that you might actually have a 6502AD in your 1541, which is also a 2MHz version. Is it true? The pictures I gave link to serve the purpose of pointing out the location not exact part #. The chip on 1541 states "MOS, 6502". There's no letters after it so it's better to point out exactly where the chip is than give labels on the chip. >Anyway, "variation" might be a better word instead of "non-standard" - the 6502A and B weren't ordered specifically by Atari in a way 6502C was. But the 6502B was replaced with a 6502 from 1541 so the "B" would be just as good as a plain vanilla (standard) 6502. Some Apple folks may have upgraded for the better 6502s. >But still not with 6502C. It's Atari-specific, pin-incompatible, and there are better options. But some people use that same word "6502c" for processor in some Apple models. In my case, it's different from A400 6502 is all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Well, you have 65C02 and 6502C. One is CMOS, the other is a (3rd party?) release with the extra opcodes like BRA, TSB, INA etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Well, you have 65C02 and 6502C. One is CMOS, the other is a (3rd party?) release with the extra opcodes like BRA, TSB, INA etc. It should be easier to plug in the enhanced 6502 and get those extra opcodes on Atari 400/800 as opposed to later Atari 8-bit machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) Unless a Sally workalike was also made, I'd say it'd be pretty hard. Probably would need to add the decoupling circuit as with 400/800. AFAIK, the enhanced 6502 was just a plug & play replacement for the older machines, no rewiring needed. Edited July 7, 2009 by Rybags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 But you didn't notice that some websites do indicate a Apple model having a 6502c I did; I am well aware that there's a lot of people on the Net that don't know what they write about. However I'm not going to correct all of them; only on AtariAge I do care. Are you reproaching me with not trying to correct every error on the Internet? The pictures I gave link to serve the purpose of pointing out the location not exact part #. The chip on 1541 states "MOS, 6502". There's no letters after it so it's better to point out exactly where the chip is than give labels on the chip. But they do not point the location; they are too blurry to provide even that information. You get my point? But the 6502B was replaced with a 6502 from 1541 so the "B" would be just as good as a plain vanilla (standard) 6502. I don't know what may happen after longer usage of a 1MHz 6502 overclocked to 1.79Mhz. How can you be sure that one of them is as good the other without having such knowledge? But some people use that same word "6502c" for processor in some Apple models. In my case, it's different from A400 6502 is all that matters. It's simpler that that; they actually use the wrong name for their processors. Well, you have 65C02 and 6502C. One is CMOS, the other is a (3rd party?) release with the extra opcodes like BRA, TSB, INA etc. You also got it wrong. The CMOS variant is the one with extra opcodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Unless a Sally workalike was also made, I'd say it'd be pretty hard. Probably would need to add the decoupling circuit as with 400/800. AFAIK, the enhanced 6502 was just a plug & play replacement for the older machines, no rewiring needed. I was talking about replacing the 6502B in A400 with the one with enhanced instruction set. A400 uses plain vanilla 6502. I see from pinouts that there's three pins that are different: Pin 1 is VPB instead of Vss, Pin 5 is MLB instead of N.C., and Pin 36 is BE instead of N.C. So if I take out pins 1 and 5 since they are not needed for A400 socket, I only have to solder one wire from pin 8 to pin 36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Well, the 65c02 was supported by the cart based Mac-65 so the upgrade was likely performed by a number of people. I can't recall anyone I knew doing it. I also don't see a great point in doing it, as any enhanced code you create will have a very small market. The extra instructions are nice and all, and it's a pity that the later 8-bits didn't head in that direction. But for a current day machine the cons outweigh the pros, especially due to lots of legacy code that uses non-documented instructions of the earlier 6502 not behaving the same on the 65c02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 But you didn't notice that some websites do indicate a Apple model having a 6502c I did; I am well aware that there's a lot of people on the Net that don't know what they write about. However I'm not going to correct all of them; only on AtariAge I do care. Are you reproaching me with not trying to correct every error on the Internet? ... Not reproaching, but just pointing out it's common useage. The link you gave does not prove them wrong. The pictures I gave link to serve the purpose of pointing out the location not exact part #. The chip on 1541 states "MOS, 6502". There's no letters after it so it's better to point out exactly where the chip is than give labels on the chip. >But they do not point the location; they are too blurry to provide even that information. You get my point? They are not blurry for that information. It's easily described-- the empty socket is from where MOS 6502 was removed from 1541 drive (http://www.krishnasoft.com/C1541MB.jpg) and top big chip of the three in the A400CPU card (http://www.krishnasoft.com/A400CPU.jpg) is where 6502 was placed, the other two chips on the card are ANTIC and GTIA. The CPU card was removed from the top slot shown in http://www.krishnasoft.com/A400MB.jpg. But the 6502B was replaced with a 6502 from 1541 so the "B" would be just as good as a plain vanilla (standard) 6502. >I don't know what may happen after longer usage of a 1MHz 6502 overclocked to 1.79Mhz. How can you be sure that one of them is as good the other without having such knowledge? You are assuming it's 1Mhz. Rockwell spec states up to 3 Mhz plain vanilla 6502s. Anyway, A400 is been almost constantly on since I replaced the chip and so far all okay. But some people use that same word "6502c" for processor in some Apple models. In my case, it's different from A400 6502 is all that matters. >It's simpler that that; they actually use the wrong name for their processors. Given widespread use of both terms (6502c and 65c02), I would say "What's in a name? That processor by any other name would be just as incompatible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Here's the Datasheet. It wouldn't be a straightforward swap, but shouldn't be too complex. The Bus Enable is an input and should be held high. SOB should also be held high. VPB is actually an output indicating an interrupt vector is being accessed (allows external logic to keep multiple vector sets). w65c02s.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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