atariksi Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What is the connection between all this 6502 talk and Atari v Commodore ? I used a 6502 from Commodore 1541 drive to fix a Atari 400 machine. I increased value of C1541 drive. Was the C1541 dead ? If it was then fine... If it was live and well then its murder! It didn't sell on Ebay for 0.99 so I thought mine as well have a working A400 that will be used rather than a C1541 sitting around in the garage collecting dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What is the connection between all this 6502 talk and Atari v Commodore ? I used a 6502 from Commodore 1541 drive to fix a Atari 400 machine. I increased value of C1541 drive. Nope, you increased the value of the A400 Nope I increased value of C1541. Either it was going to get trashed by the flea market guy I bought it from originally or someone in my home. So now that I put it to good use, perhaps they won't trash it. You really need to get a grip on your emotions before you blurt out your incoherent word jugglery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Not sure. I think some Synapse games used them. They're popular in copy protection schemes. Just one of those little barriers they put up against hackers. It would have been good if they upgraded the 6502 for block moves and block fills or writes to same location for I/O or other uses. It would be easier than upgrading to an accelerator. Isn't the ARM (my other favourite CPU) the spiritual successor to the 6502 and has all those great things (along with others like conditional execution of all instructions)? I know you can't exactly drop one of those in as a replacement but whilst we're talking dreams... I was just thinking when they enhanced the 6502 with more instructions, the 80x86 architecture existed with these features: REP MOVSB (move CX bytes from DS:[sI++] to ES:[DI++]) REP STOSB (fill CX bytes at ES:[DI++] with AL) REP OUTSB (output CX bytes from DS:[sI++] to I/O port DX) etc. and those features within a 6502-based machines would really have accelerated many things like color re-use, software sprites, I/O, etc. Even the reset/set bit instructions would have helped if they had absolute addressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What is the connection between all this 6502 talk and Atari v Commodore ? I used a 6502 from Commodore 1541 drive to fix a Atari 400 machine. I increased value of C1541 drive. Ha ha! Priceless!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 This may have already been addressed in this thread, but I don't have a spare year to read the pages I may have missed here and there over the decades, but is there a way for the c=64 to use the processor in the 1541 to get a boost on it's processing, thus helping to bridge the processor speed gap that exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 sure...upload code to the 1541 ram and let the 1541 do some job...but not sure if it ever was used for calculation things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Here are some demos that used it: Panta Rhei http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=15745 Uses the disk drive for calculations of the chessboard and the x-rotator. Digital World here the filled vector tunel, and other filled vectors uses the drive to do the 3d math. http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=4762 Altered States 50% the filledvector part here again uses for 3d math the drive http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=11610 The Wild Bunch http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=41462 Uses the disk drive to calculate the y-stretching in the double zoom scrollers. Same technique as in the chess zoomer in Panta Rhei mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 sure...upload code to the 1541 ram and let the 1541 do some job...but not sure if it ever was used for calculation things... You need to figure in the upload/download times. So it's faster nowadays to use a parallel interface to a laptop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 sure...upload code to the 1541 ram and let the 1541 do some job...but not sure if it ever was used for calculation things... You need to figure in the upload/download times. So it's faster nowadays to use a parallel interface to a laptop... Something like this: http://www.64hdd.com/projects/software/c64-v6510.html (code executed on PC, data transfered through parallel interface) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) What is the connection between all this 6502 talk and Atari v Commodore ? I used a 6502 from Commodore 1541 drive to fix a Atari 400 machine. I increased value of C1541 drive. Ha ha! Priceless!!!! more like pathetic. Makes me even less interested in checking out the Atari 8 bit computers. Edited July 11, 2009 by SpiceWare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Here are some demos that used it: That's pretty cool, hadn't heard about that before. Has anybody used 4 drives running code for the 64? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Ha ha! Priceless!!!! more like pathetic. Makes me even less interested in checking out the Atari 8 bit computers. Agreed but then the C64philes haven't always behaved either (and in one of the few A8 forums no less). A few A8philes misbehaving here doesn't mean everyone that likes it is a jerk and by association the A8 is a jerk's platform. I mean if I took Oswald as representative of C64 fans...... Anyhoo the A8 chipset is basically the same design aesthetic as the 2600 with some obvious improvements and expansions. Flesh out the TIA with some more modes, another player, and another missile, add the ANTIC so that the 6502 doesn't have to spend so much time "chasing the beam", put an expanded version of the TIA's sound generator on a separate chip and give the whole thing the ability to access more memory without banking and you essentially have it. It's a pity you're being put off it. I bet you could do great things with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) Something like this:http://www.64hdd.com/projects/software/c64-v6510.html (code executed on PC, data transfered through parallel interface) That's really nifty! That sounds similar in philosophy to the Chimera project for the 2600 which has sadly been dropped by it's developers. Chimera would have had an ARM (I believe) processor emitting 6507 opcodes on the fly for the 2600 to execute. In effect, this would make the 2600 a peripheral for a much faster processor. It seems this 64 project suffers the same bugaboo as any clustered app: the interconnect. Still, a virtual processor that is 3 times faster is nothing to sneeze at. I wonder how feasible it would be to replace the processor in an old 8-bit with a bus connection to a fast PC that behaves as the processor? Probably not very but it is fun to think about. Edited July 11, 2009 by frogstar_robot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This is one of the reasons I really like the Atari computers! They are the next step up from the VCS, and can easily be programmed to capture the feel of the VCS. Play Pitfall II on an Atari computer, and know what an expanded VCS would have been like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 sure...upload code to the 1541 ram and let the 1541 do some job...but not sure if it ever was used for calculation things... You need to figure in the upload/download times. So it's faster nowadays to use a parallel interface to a laptop... Something like this: http://www.64hdd.com/projects/software/c64-v6510.html (code executed on PC, data transfered through parallel interface) That's a hardware add-on card. I was thinking software only. You can easily connect parallel port to joystick port and have PC execute code in it's native mode and transfer buffer back after processing (like I have done). This would have less overhead in upload/download and finish executing faster (obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Here are some demos that used it: That's pretty cool, hadn't heard about that before. Has anybody used 4 drives running code for the 64? That would be pathetic for real. It's pathetic multiprocessing given you have numerous other methods to do better (not just today). You can easily hook up an Atari to the C64 and use it's 1.79Mhz processor speed through the serial port (3 pins) or joystick port. It's good for people who enjoy doing things inefficiently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 What is the connection between all this 6502 talk and Atari v Commodore ? I used a 6502 from Commodore 1541 drive to fix a Atari 400 machine. I increased value of C1541 drive. Ha ha! Priceless!!!! more like pathetic. Makes me even less interested in checking out the Atari 8 bit computers. From what you have stated in this thread, I never knew you had any interest in Atari 8-bit computers so it can't get any less. You expressed your opinion (and showed your bias). I know people who take chips from VGA cards and use in their Amigas so you want to declare them pathetic as well. Those ISA/VLB VGA cards would otherwise be in the trash. If it didn't work, it would show that 1541 uses inferior chips than A400. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Ha ha! Priceless!!!! more like pathetic. Makes me even less interested in checking out the Atari 8 bit computers. Agreed but then the C64philes haven't always behaved either (and in one of the few A8 forums no less). A few A8philes misbehaving here doesn't mean everyone that likes it is a jerk and by association the A8 is a jerk's platform. I mean if I took Oswald as representative of C64 fans...... Anyhoo the A8 chipset is basically the same design aesthetic as the 2600 with some obvious improvements and expansions. Flesh out the TIA with some more modes, another player, and another missile, add the ANTIC so that the 6502 doesn't have to spend so much time "chasing the beam", put an expanded version of the TIA's sound generator on a separate chip and give the whole thing the ability to access more memory without banking and you essentially have it. It's a pity you're being put off it. I bet you could do great things with it. I don't know why you agreed with him, but Oswald wasn't as bad as some others in this forum. I had some pretty good (logical) discussions with Oswald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Agreed but then the C64philes haven't always behaved either True, though the degree of venom I see from atariski and atarian63 far exceeds what I've seen from the C64 fans. It's a pity you're being put off it. I bet you could do great things with it. Yeah, it is. I was interested in the Atari back in the day, else I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of learning Atascii to add support for it to my MusicTerm software, I just never had the funds to obtain one. And now that I can afford to, well, I guess the word is ironic for the impact of a couple of Atari Fanatics... Ah well, I've been enjoying the rediscovery of old favorites with my new Mega-Cart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 There is lots of time! Maybe snag a good XE, a DVD and SIO device now? Then someday, when you get the itch, scratch it! I'm considering exactly that for the C64, and am down the road on a Color Computer 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 What is the connection between all this 6502 talk and Atari v Commodore ? I used a 6502 from Commodore 1541 drive to fix a Atari 400 machine. I increased value of C1541 drive. Ha ha! Priceless!!!! more like pathetic. Makes me even less interested in checking out the Atari 8 bit computers. Hey!! I just think the whole attitude thing is funny. I'm a historical Atari user, but I like both. I have C64 and 1541 Ultimate hooked up right next to this computer. Commodore users saying "Atari sucks" (etc) did not affect my wanting to check out the C64. I don't see why the opposite should affect you. I just think the whole childish choosing of sides (of these dodo birds, no less) is somewhat funny in that the phenomenon occurs in grown men. I suppose it is because many users here were still children when the choice was made in the early 80s. I think you take this stuff too seriously, as do a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 There is lots of time! Maybe snag a good XE, a DVD and SIO device now? Then someday, when you get the itch, scratch it! I'm considering exactly that for the C64, and am down the road on a Color Computer 3. If you're going to use the C64, you really need the "1541 Ultimate" and it is expensive, but you should get one NOW while you can. I imagine they are only going to do another production run (or 2) and call it quits. Then what is expensive now will become rare and more expensive, and won't be worth it. Like much of this stuff it is a hobbiest thing. It's sold in Euros so it's a lot of Yankee greenbacks with conversion. I wasn't in a hurry to jump into C64 right this second, but I saw the status of the 1541U and figured I better - and it's been fun! I'll bet you could sell the 1541U later on Ebay, if you decided it "wasn't for you." It makes it easy. I would not have gotten a C64 without it; it's that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Cool. I'm saving my pennies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Agreed but then the C64philes haven't always behaved either True, though the degree of venom I see from atariski and atarian63 far exceeds what I've seen from the C64 fans. ... Anyone can blurt out what he likes. I can teach some 5-year olds to reply like you. It takes some brains to deal with the issues presented rationally. It's like this andyxxx guy trying to discredit Atari advantages in this thread with name-calling and trying to discredit the thread or the people opposed to his misunderstandings. Sorry people, truth doesn't care about your opinions and biased emotional rantings. I support C64, Atari, Atari ST, Amiga, etc. in my products but I don't let this get in the way of what the truth is. There's no venom in any of my postings-- just your own hatred/bias coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ha ha! Priceless!!!! more like pathetic. Makes me even less interested in checking out the Atari 8 bit computers. Agreed but then the C64philes haven't always behaved either (and in one of the few A8 forums no less). A few A8philes misbehaving here doesn't mean everyone that likes it is a jerk and by association the A8 is a jerk's platform. I mean if I took Oswald as representative of C64 fans...... Anyhoo the A8 chipset is basically the same design aesthetic as the 2600 with some obvious improvements and expansions. Flesh out the TIA with some more modes, another player, and another missile, add the ANTIC so that the 6502 doesn't have to spend so much time "chasing the beam", put an expanded version of the TIA's sound generator on a separate chip and give the whole thing the ability to access more memory without banking and you essentially have it. It's a pity you're being put off it. I bet you could do great things with it. Oswald is a very talented C64 demo coder, as opposed to millions of 'theories' bandied around and maybe 1% of those end up with some disappointing video/screen shot that is nothing like as impressive as promised....but then I guess people who are fans of only one make of machine are blinded by the C= badge on the machine running some impressive code he is linked to. People need to learn respect for programming talent demonstrable in practical form on ANY platform. Anyway personally I have no problem with fixing an Atari 400 using a 6502 chip from a 1541 disk drive, over here the 1541 goes for less money on ebay than the Atari 400 and finding a 2nd 400 for spares would be pretty hard anyway! Plus even a dead 1541 would probably have a working 6502 chip. Simple economics. I mean if I pick up a 1541 for say 10 bucks, fix a 400 that cost me ten bucks and sell it for 60 bucks it's fine with me, more money to spend on other things either way. (you didn't think I'd keep one of those crippled things with a Sinclair ZX keyboard and no useful ram to run any significant percentage of commercial games released and no easy way to upgrade it to 48k even if I could bear to use that piece of shit touchpad keyboard? LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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