analmux Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Anyone who joins just to keep this thread going should be banned. Exactly. ...only because you did not like what you just saw... ...so please tell us why they did not do that...Maybe it sadly shows the disadvantage of Atari... Why once in a few months some C64 guy joins AA forum, only posting in this thread, to come and play ignorant? ...please show us some examples of newer (or older if you wish) atari games with such big sprites (as in Barbarian) in 32-64 colors on screen. Is Space Harrier not enough for you? It has sprites nearly as big as the entire screen, and you are still moaning about these little Barbarian sprities? Or, what about Project 'M'? (see programming forum here) Huge 256 colour sprites on top of a 256 colour scene. Just throw away your shitty C64, and start a new life. So, OK, draw your conclusions. If you think Barbarian can't be done better, because A8 is much worse than C64, then I'd like to say congratulations with your conclusions, and good luck. Bye bye, now back to your little C64 world. (oops, Oswald modus off ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Or, what about Project 'M'? (see programming forum here) Well, Project "M" assist my thesis about having "3D" Games like Wolfenstein 10 years before the PC version. Ofcourse it had needed a memory upgrade, just because the graphics and level data eat far more than 64K, they had to come with expansion Cartridges. We always read, how fast DMA on the C64 is. But, hey, the Atari need one "lda sta" command to have 8k of ram "loaded". >>> 5 cycles load 8K of RAM <<< if needed. This means up to 2000000K/s in a dedicated controller running in burst mode and a fullscreen charmode is used. Well , 2 billion bytes/s is a raw guessed theory, but surely a fragment of this is needed to support games on the A8 for full graphics and sound updates where needed. Edited September 1, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Is Space Harrier not enough for you? It has sprites nearly as big as the entire screen, and you are still moaning about these little Barbarian sprities? Or, what about Project 'M'? (see programming forum here) Huge 256 colour sprites on top of a 256 colour scene. Just throw away your shitty C64, and start a new life. So, OK, draw your conclusions. If you think Barbarian can't be done better, because A8 is much worse than C64, then I'd like to say congratulations with your conclusions, and good luck. Bye bye, now back to your little C64 world. (oops, Oswald modus off ) Yeah, but at least the 64s NMIs work reliably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You think you can come in here on page 284 and say something brilliant we haven't heard before? Somehow I doubt it. 12-Bit samples at 24Khz ? We didn't mention that one before did we /me stops throwing fuel on the fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Gotta laugh at the outrageous claims for some of these samples... I checked the ones posted way back that claimed to be 8-bit... sounded like they were barely 5 bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Gotta laugh at the outrageous claims for some of these samples... I checked the ones posted way back that claimed to be 8-bit... sounded like they were barely 5 bit. I remember your comment, and I agree to some degree.. You were listening to the mod playback in 8 bits and I agree totally that they sound rough as hell.. Playing back one 8 bit sample sounds exactly as it should do at the given sample rate, believe me I've checked this and bar a (very) small non-linearity on the 6581 DAC, the 8580 is perfectly linear.. It achieves exactly what it says on the tin.. What people choose to do with those 8bits of audio and try to munge into 8bits is up to them, but what I've heard doesn't sell it's ability in any way at all.. So far.. I think people got too carried away with wanting to play mods which quite frankly I hate both the idea and the format Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I know what 8-bit should sound like, and that didn't. Regardless of if it is or isn't 8-bit, it's practically useless if it's only playing at some shitty rate like 2 KHz. Re the NMI thing... I've yet to test on the C64 to see if it can get the same problem... regardless of that, it's more a problem of the CPU than of the NMI source... as someone posted elsewhere, the external device should only need to hold NMI low for 2 cycles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 What people choose to do with those 8bits of audio and try to munge into 8bits is up to them... Thanks. This argument is also valid for A8. A8 has great features. The fact that Barbarian doesn't reflect that is of no importance at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You think you can come in here on page 284 and say something brilliant we haven't heard before? Somehow I doubt it. 12-Bit samples at 24Khz ? We didn't mention that one before did we /me stops throwing fuel on the fire... vs. Pokey: Full analog control of pokey channel voltage by using the sawtooth feature + analog decay features + programming the voices at the right timing = effectively over 12 bit precision + linearly rising/lowering levels instead of 'chunks'. 24khz quality easily reached. However, it was not used that many times before. But that's (using your arguments) up to the user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 vs. Pokey: Full analog control of pokey channel voltage by using the sawtooth feature + analog decay features + programming the voices at the right timing = effectively over 12 bit precision + linearly rising/lowering levels instead of 'chunks'. 24khz quality easily reached. However, it was not used that many times before. But that's (using your arguments) up to the user Wow, the secret weapons of the Atarians are really being rolled out now Sounds cool, though a bit of a waveform surfing timing nightmare at first thought.. You say not used many times before ? Where can I find some examples of this in action, although I'm guessing emulators are out of the question with this technique at the moment ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Sounds cool, though a bit of a waveform surfing timing nightmare at first thought.. Well, the term 'waveform surfing' exactly describes in two words what it's all about, thanks. You say not used many times before ? Where can I find some examples of this in action... It was just a parody. It was never used before, but that's up to the users...OK, for an example, here you go: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~bpos/SAMPLE8/1.gif It's just a test during the early testing phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Anyone who joins just to keep this thread going should be banned. Exactly. ...only because you did not like what you just saw... ...so please tell us why they did not do that...Maybe it sadly shows the disadvantage of Atari... Why once in a few months some C64 guy joins AA forum, only posting in this thread, to come and play ignorant? ...please show us some examples of newer (or older if you wish) atari games with such big sprites (as in Barbarian) in 32-64 colors on screen. Is Space Harrier not enough for you? It has sprites nearly as big as the entire screen, and you are still moaning about these little Barbarian sprities? Or, what about Project 'M'? (see programming forum here) Huge 256 colour sprites on top of a 256 colour scene. Just throw away your shitty C64, and start a new life. So, OK, draw your conclusions. If you think Barbarian can't be done better, because A8 is much worse than C64, then I'd like to say congratulations with your conclusions, and good luck. Bye bye, now back to your little C64 world. (oops, Oswald modus off ) WOW ! Another punisher and this time you scared me to death. I am only a messenger who brings bad news. I know it's hard to bear, but please do not kill me. I also hope that sticking to the topic and being a C-64 fan is not a crime in this forum ? As for Oswald, he is a very talented and respectable guy. He is also very active on the C-64 scene. Having read his posts I clearly see that many people could learn a lot from him. Unfortunately your answer was quite hilarious. Project M and Space Harrier are only projects, not games yet. Besides, will they be working on 64k Atari, as Space Harrier already is on C-64 ? Do they really work in 256 colours, or maybe somebody is colour blind ? Well, I can safely assume that a proper example has not been showed yet. So, could you be so kind and show me the real one, instead of appealing to ban me ? If it's so easy on Atari, just prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Who in the hell are you anyway? -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I am just a simple and humble C-64 fan, who found this topic interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 By the way, you have a great site Atari Frog, an equivalent of lemon64 I would say. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) (Barbarian) The most funny thing is that Atari version could be done so far better that the C64 version. The C64 version could have been done far better too. On both platforms you just see the result of doing that game the most straight forward way. Edited September 1, 2009 by Lazarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (Barbarian) The most funny thing is that Atari version could be done so far better that the C64 version. The C64 version could have been done far better too. On both platforms you just see the result of doing that game the most straight forward way. Not that simple. There are other factors involved in game making. If game is targetted toward a particular hardware (from design stage) rather than being translated/ported from another, it works out better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Not that simple. There are other factors involved in game making. If game is targetted toward a particular hardware (from design stage) rather than being translated/ported from another, it works out better. It's definitely not targetted towards the C64 hardware, otherwise the barbarians would be put in sprites and the bitmap graphics would not have an empty area for rendering software sprites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Sure thing Allas, so please tell us why they did not do that ? 6 years after C-64 version and such a butt ugly game. Maybe it sadly shows the disadvantage of Atari ? Putting aside what could be done, I don't think a few screenshots are going to show Atari's disadvantages. Even some people claim Colecovision has better games than Atari by showing a few screenshots but then you start playing the game and the flickering, buggy collision detection, coarse scrolls, etc. start showing up. Granted you experience that some people have blue eyes, but that does not allow you to draw the conclusion that everyone has blue eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 It was just a parody. It was never used before, but that's up to the users...OK, for an example, here you go: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~bpos/SAMPLE8/1.gifIt's just a test during the early testing phase. Looks very promising.. The interpolated (if I read the titles right) output at the bottom ? It's from what ? A simulation of the decay or the actual hardware ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I am just a simple and humble C-64 fan, who found this topic interesting. I highly doubt you read this topic given your absurd conclusion about "Atari disadvantages" from a small sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Sounds cool, though a bit of a waveform surfing timing nightmare at first thought.. Well, the term 'waveform surfing' exactly describes in two words what it's all about, thanks. You say not used many times before ? Where can I find some examples of this in action... It was just a parody. It was never used before, but that's up to the users...OK, for an example, here you go: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~bpos/SAMPLE8/1.gif It's just a test during the early testing phase. Games hardly use the 4-bit DACs given the memory constraints of targetting mostly 16K cartridges (or less) so obviously they didn't explore the possibilities of >4-bit DAC simulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Sure thing Allas, so please tell us why they did not do that ? 6 years after C-64 version and such a butt ugly game. Maybe it sadly shows the disadvantage of Atari ? Putting aside what could be done, I don't think a few screenshots are going to show Atari's disadvantages. Even some people claim Colecovision has better games than Atari by showing a few screenshots but then you start playing the game and the flickering, buggy collision detection, coarse scrolls, etc. start showing up. Granted you experience that some people have blue eyes, but that does not allow you to draw the conclusion that everyone has blue eyes. It's not only the "few" screenshots. Have you played both versions of Barbarian ? If don't, try it please and then we will talk. Edited September 1, 2009 by Rockford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I know what 8-bit should sound like, and that didn't. Regardless of if it is or isn't 8-bit, it's practically useless if it's only playing at some shitty rate like 2 KHz. Re the NMI thing... I've yet to test on the C64 to see if it can get the same problem... regardless of that, it's more a problem of the CPU than of the NMI source... as someone posted elsewhere, the external device should only need to hold NMI low for 2 cycles. It's a software algorithm for 8-bits; hardware-wise POKEY has 4 DACs at 4-bits/sample and SID has 1 4-bit DAC. Yeah, and what application is there on C64 that uses hundreds of NMIs and hundreds of IRQs every frame? There's some software workarounds anyways-- one way is just use a 15Khz IRQ for the DLIs and then deal with both timer IRQs at time of interrupt. Perhaps, the C64 haven't run into the problem because they would overload their slower CPU before they can even have the possibility of having hundreds of IRQs and NMIs occurring every frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I am just a simple and humble C-64 fan, who found this topic interesting. I highly doubt you read this topic given your absurd conclusion about "Atari disadvantages" from a small sample. Do not worry mate. Soon, I will show you a much larger sample to prove Atari disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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