Atari v Commodore

[atariksi]

...

Couldn't say it better!

Thank you for your words of wisdom...

 

I can say it better and his words are not wisdom but JUST his opinions and speculative since he has not read the thread. He thinks using words biased and hatred although proveable is bad but all the cursing and other mockery that took place earlier he has no knowledge about. I have better words for him: "In order to post to this thread, you should have atleast one: a C64 or Atari." He has neither but wants people to accept him as an authority on how Atari vs. Commodore should be conducted. Assuming some authority while not deserving any. I took at as a joke and replied jokingly.

 

Regarding post #10617, the above (post #10620) is relevant to it.

[atariksi]

 

I have been ignoring you because of your stupidity like you expressed above. I'll give you one more chance to see if you will wisen up. You are are so dull-headed that even praise/humor as interpreted as some sort of fight. Both of my statements are true. You would get better results with a bigger palette. And STE has done a great job given the restrictions he is in. You don't have to rely on STE if that's what you want me to admit; I am sure you can find other people to train up or already have to do similar work.

 

 

More likely ignoring me because after our last exchange where you constantly tried to put words in my mouth, and then twisted everything you said to get out of admitting you were wrong. Please continue to ignore me, as emkay said it's like a child putting their hands in front of their eyes and thinking that means the bad thing has gone. Now you post was humorous as well? I admit I didn't see that one.. The fact remains that due to your attitude where anything you say is usually targeted against the C64 and it's users (see the quotes above), even if you were being humorous or attempting to praise Ste your comments come off as the total opposite.

 

Now by all means block me again if you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you because if wisening up means believing anything you say I'd rather be a dullard.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said I blocked you and never did. I just didn't bother replying to you given how you interpreted things and this was the most recent case. See I knew I shouldn't have bothered with you since you went right back to our original conversation. I am not trying to get out of anything. I haven't edited any of my posts so I stand by whatever I write and wrote in this thread. Post was written jokingly as stated in post #10620, but it's true as well except for the exaggeration regarding RELYing on STE. I think it's pretty obvious that C64 users don't rely on STE to do the graphics.

[andym00]

If I design a game that takes maximum advantage of the ATARI's features, and then go port it to the C=64 (that is, move most of the code involving the basic game mechanics over, and then try to build a similar looking game, using C=64's features) the C=64 version is probably not gonna look quite as nice as the atari version. Well hell... The game was DESIGNED around the capabilities/limitations of the ATARI.. And by the same token, if I design a game to take advantage of all the strongpoints of the C=64's hardware, I am gonna have a hell of a time making "the same game" on the atari, without making some serious changes/sacrifices.

 

Not according to some Atarians in this thread... but yup, that's how i see things too. i decided a few years back to aim at least some of what i'm coding at a specific platform rather than planning ahead to convert them, even if i don't always listen to myself and do daft stuff like trying to get the same puzzle game running on everything! =-)

 

I think there's another option as well, and that's over in 64 land we rarely ever take advantage of software sprites (well just char-based weapons and such-like), you can probably count the games that do on one hand.. But now I'm feeling far more confident with 6502 software sprites, both character modes and bitmap modes, I think there's some great stuff that could be done with software sprites backing up hardware sprites on the 64, I mean some really really cool things > Using sprites as underlays in expanded mode, and experimenting with using multiple single colour underlay expanded hardware sprites in both bitmap and character modes.. But that's for later anyway..

[andym00]

Is this a difficult concept to grasp? Perhaps someone will draw a picture, illustrative of this fact, and upload it, if it's SO surprising. It should NOT be surprising; it should be painfully obvious. Equally obvious should be the fact that if you enter any of those sites spewing venom and criticism of the product/brand/choice of the majority of members of a respective site, you're going to set off a pissing contest/flamewar.

 

The only venom being spewed forth seems to be originating from your corner as you indulge in your spazzy out-bursts and vitriolic diatribe because you can't have your way and clearly have absolutely nothing of substance to contribute.. It seems that was your sole intention and now you won't settle until you achieve your goal..

[atariksi]

Fine C64 viewing from 1983,typical of what I recall. Looks like an Atari 2600 game

(no insult to 2600)

 

I actually have that game for C64 on cartridge (came with the machine) so it doesn't have that "deleted and cracked" message.

 

Some games I just don't play; I'm not a collector just keep the top games for A8, Amiga, ST, etc.

[PeteD]

 

I have been ignoring you because of your stupidity like you expressed above. I'll give you one more chance to see if you will wisen up. You are are so dull-headed that even praise/humor as interpreted as some sort of fight. Both of my statements are true. You would get better results with a bigger palette. And STE has done a great job given the restrictions he is in. You don't have to rely on STE if that's what you want me to admit; I am sure you can find other people to train up or already have to do similar work.

 

 

More likely ignoring me because after our last exchange where you constantly tried to put words in my mouth, and then twisted everything you said to get out of admitting you were wrong. Please continue to ignore me, as emkay said it's like a child putting their hands in front of their eyes and thinking that means the bad thing has gone. Now you post was humorous as well? I admit I didn't see that one.. The fact remains that due to your attitude where anything you say is usually targeted against the C64 and it's users (see the quotes above), even if you were being humorous or attempting to praise Ste your comments come off as the total opposite.

 

Now by all means block me again if you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you because if wisening up means believing anything you say I'd rather be a dullard.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said I blocked you and never did. I just didn't bother replying to you given how you interpreted things and this was the most recent case. See I knew I shouldn't have bothered with you since you went right back to our original conversation. I am not trying to get out of anything. I haven't edited any of my posts so I stand by whatever I write and wrote in this thread. Post was written jokingly as stated in post #10620, but it's true as well except for the exaggeration regarding RELYing on STE. I think it's pretty obvious that C64 users don't rely on STE to do the graphics.

 

Semantics. Blocked/Ignored same thing if you're not reading what I have to say. Of course you won't bother with me because I pose a threat and won't let you attempt to wheedle out of something. Now you've gone from saying you were praising Ste to saying it was all just a joke? If it's so obvious C64 users don't rely on STE then that just proves to me you were targeting him. No humour perceived by me and obviously other members of the forum, that tends to be what etc are for.

 

It is true that the A8 can have scanned pictures, never argued with that, if they're better in 16 shades with a 4:1 AR, debatable but your right to prefer. It's not true however that the world would be a better place without the C64s pictures. I can't help but cross reference times when you say things like that with times where you say "we're not all equal" and then mention a specific persons name on the flip side of your "A8 is better because" argument.

 

 

Pete

[Bryan]

Actually I was thinking about this last night and if you think about it Miners weak point does indeed seem to have eternally been hardware moving objects.. Whilst the display hardware itself is pretty much always all well and good, the movable objects themselves, players, sprite, whatever have usually been the side that let the machine down.. Granted on the 2600 they were the absolute saviour for it, but they evolved very little from that point in, through to the 5200/A8 there's little in the way of 2 years of progress, and by the time the Amiga arrived, there's literally bugger all evolution in them from the A8, whilst the rest of the world had moved on to silly amounts of sprites, a theme that generally stayed for quite some time.. It's still odd that the Atari machines with the monster sprite-abilities (that Miner had nothing to do with) 7800/Lynx/Jaguar failed so catastrophically in their times.. Maybe there was something to that Miner magic after all..

Hardware sprites have always been something of a band-aid to compensate for limited RAM or CPU power. Although they are a separate graphics layer in the Atari, 64, TI99, etc., they were gradually replaced by blitter objects drawn to a unified bitmap and software sprites. For the most part, true sprites don't really exist anymore.

[atariksi]

 

I have been ignoring you because of your stupidity like you expressed above. I'll give you one more chance to see if you will wisen up. You are are so dull-headed that even praise/humor as interpreted as some sort of fight. Both of my statements are true. You would get better results with a bigger palette. And STE has done a great job given the restrictions he is in. You don't have to rely on STE if that's what you want me to admit; I am sure you can find other people to train up or already have to do similar work.

 

 

More likely ignoring me because after our last exchange where you constantly tried to put words in my mouth, and then twisted everything you said to get out of admitting you were wrong. Please continue to ignore me, as emkay said it's like a child putting their hands in front of their eyes and thinking that means the bad thing has gone. Now you post was humorous as well? I admit I didn't see that one.. The fact remains that due to your attitude where anything you say is usually targeted against the C64 and it's users (see the quotes above), even if you were being humorous or attempting to praise Ste your comments come off as the total opposite.

 

Now by all means block me again if you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you because if wisening up means believing anything you say I'd rather be a dullard.

 

 

Pete

 

I never said I blocked you and never did. I just didn't bother replying to you given how you interpreted things and this was the most recent case. See I knew I shouldn't have bothered with you since you went right back to our original conversation. I am not trying to get out of anything. I haven't edited any of my posts so I stand by whatever I write and wrote in this thread. Post was written jokingly as stated in post #10620, but it's true as well except for the exaggeration regarding RELYing on STE. I think it's pretty obvious that C64 users don't rely on STE to do the graphics.

 

Semantics. Blocked/Ignored same thing if you're not reading what I have to say. Of course you won't bother with me because I pose a threat and won't let you attempt to wheedle out of something. Now you've gone from saying you were praising Ste to saying it was all just a joke? If it's so obvious C64 users don't rely on STE then that just proves to me you were targeting him. No humour perceived by me and obviously other members of the forum, that tends to be what etc are for.

 

It is true that the A8 can have scanned pictures, never argued with that, if they're better in 16 shades with a 4:1 AR, debatable but your right to prefer. It's not true however that the world would be a better place without the C64s pictures. I can't help but cross reference times when you say things like that with times where you say "we're not all equal" and then mention a specific persons name on the flip side of your "A8 is better because" argument.

 

 

Pete

 

I read your message that's why I replied to it (insulting as it was). You're no threat nor are any other C64 users here. I am praising STE in that message that was written jokingly and YES you can praise someone and joke simultaneously. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. "C64 users rely on STE for good graphics" is a joke in a sense that they are all lined up to get their artwork done from him and it's praising him that he's that good. There's some more humor in that message (if you read it without looking for fault). Sometimes, when you have to explain it too much the humor isn't that humorous anymore. I didn't see better place but "more beautiful".

[Bryan]

I find that this interview is really interesting, http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/jayminerinterview.html

He wanted to do a 68000 machine in 79 while still at Atari, and left when no bonuses were paid.

He also seemed really into the blitter idea, and I guess that's why the sprites were given less of a boost. After all - the blitter gave the Amiga better 'sprite' capabilities ( in terms of size ) than most other machines.

 

1979 was surely the nail in the coffin for Atari. As a company they no longer valued their world-class R&D talent and instead thought they could survive on hype and marketing alone. For the next few years they would continue to repackage their existing technologies.

[PeteD]

 

I read your message that's why I replied to it (insulting as it was). You're no threat nor are any other C64 users here. I am praising STE in that message that was written jokingly and YES you can praise someone and joke simultaneously. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. "C64 users rely on STE for good graphics" is a joke in a sense that they are all lined up to get their artwork done from him and it's praising him that he's that good. There's some more humor in that message (if you read it without looking for fault). Sometimes, when you have to explain it too much the humor isn't that humorous anymore. I didn't see better place but "more beautiful".

 

Have it your way, but that just sounds like more wheedling to get out of what you originally said.

 

Better place/more beautiful, semantics again but I apologise for misquoting you despite them being interchangeable terms if you're talking about is something more beautiful better (and I don't mean more colours, that's your slant on beauty). You've made your position on C64 graphics perfectly clear. If you just said, "I don't like the c64's graphics", I'd have some respect for your opinion, but you're so arrogant that the A8 HAS to be better and you HAVE to be right.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

 

I read your message that's why I replied to it (insulting as it was). You're no threat nor are any other C64 users here. I am praising STE in that message that was written jokingly and YES you can praise someone and joke simultaneously. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. "C64 users rely on STE for good graphics" is a joke in a sense that they are all lined up to get their artwork done from him and it's praising him that he's that good. There's some more humor in that message (if you read it without looking for fault). Sometimes, when you have to explain it too much the humor isn't that humorous anymore. I didn't see better place but "more beautiful".

 

Have it your way, but that just sounds like more wheedling to get out of what you originally said.

 

Better place/more beautiful, semantics again but I apologise for misquoting you despite them being interchangeable terms if you're talking about is something more beautiful better (and I don't mean more colours, that's your slant on beauty). You've made your position on C64 graphics perfectly clear. If you just said, "I don't like the c64's graphics", I'd have some respect for your opinion, but you're so arrogant that the A8 HAS to be better and you HAVE to be right.

 

 

Pete

 

I am not wheedling out of it. The world is more beautiful without C64's distorted color images. More beautiful doesn't always mean better as the crime in the world may go up if things were more beautiful (for example). And that wasn't a comparison with A8. If artist didn't have a C64, the painting would be done with real colors/shades (analog palette) or with A8 which was 2nd cheapest popular machine at the time and has more accurate colors or perhaps even some PGA card.

[PeteD]

 

I am not wheedling out of it. The world is more beautiful without C64's distorted color images. More beautiful doesn't always mean better as the crime in the world may go up if things were more beautiful (for example). And that wasn't a comparison with A8. If artist didn't have a C64, the painting would be done with real colors/shades (analog palette) or with A8 which was 2nd cheapest popular machine at the time and has more accurate colors or perhaps even some PGA card.

 

Have you never been to an art gallery? Never seen some of the classics? Artists used limited palettes throughout history either because they had to or chose to. Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder.

 

There are MANY beautiful pictures on the C64, if you don't class them as such then that's an opinion, not a fact. Maybe its a case of you just don't make your meanings clear enough when you talk about these things. I can't see how "more beautiful" can be anything but better else why strive for more beautiful things? If that's not what you mean it still seems that way to most other people (if they're honest).

 

Where crime comes into it I have no idea. I'm sure you'll enlighten me

 

 

 

Pete

Edited October 15, 2009 by PeteD

[Albert]

The world is more beautiful without C64's distorted color images.

Really? This may be the most ridiculous thing anyone's said in this thread. And you've said it twice?

 

..Al

[atariksi]

...

The world is more beautiful if the C64 didn't exist with it color-distorted pictures. All machines have their style of programming. You are admitting you are just starting and already drawing absurd conclusions.

 

For me the linear graphics modes, more colors, higher throughput, etc. work fine for me and much easier than using C64 style.

 

Just wanted to quote original thing I stated (post #10553) so everything is understood properly.

[Bryan]

Time for a classic!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Edited October 15, 2009 by Bryan

[PeteD]

Time for a classic!

 

 

Full half hour...

 

 

Pete

[andym00]

Hardware sprites have always been something of a band-aid to compensate for limited RAM or CPU power. Although they are a separate graphics layer in the Atari, 64, TI99, etc., they were gradually replaced by blitter objects drawn to a unified bitmap and software sprites. For the most part, true sprites don't really exist anymore.

 

 

edit: Completely irrelevant know I've gone and done a bit more reading about the arcade boards in question

Yes, you're right

Edited October 15, 2009 by andym00

[atariksi]

 

I am not wheedling out of it. The world is more beautiful without C64's distorted color images. More beautiful doesn't always mean better as the crime in the world may go up if things were more beautiful (for example). And that wasn't a comparison with A8. If artist didn't have a C64, the painting would be done with real colors/shades (analog palette) or with A8 which was 2nd cheapest popular machine at the time and has more accurate colors or perhaps even some PGA card.

 

Have you never been to an art gallery? Never seen some of the classics? Artists used limited palettes throughout history either because they had to or chose to. Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder.

 

There are MANY beautiful pictures on the C64, if you don't class them as such then that's an opinion, not a fact. Maybe its a case of you just don't make your meanings clear enough when you talk about these things. I can't see how "more beautiful" can be anything but better else why strive for more beautiful things? If that's not what you mean it still seems that way to most other people (if they're honest).

 

Where crime comes into it I have no idea. I'm sure you'll enlighten me

 

 

 

Pete

 

Actually, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is an opinion and we had a discussion about the objectivity of beauty recently in this thread. The example I gave for crime is also good since if you had more beautiful artwork you can end up with more robberies whereas some insignificant artwork no one may care about. Better and more beautiful world are not dependent.

 

True that some paintings can look like a few colors but the world is analog and has infinite shades and colors. If artist will get more beautiful results the lesser he is restricted.

[atariksi]

The world is more beautiful without C64's distorted color images.

Really? This may be the most ridiculous thing anyone's said in this thread. And you've said it twice?

 

..Al

 

It's instantiation of the general principle that was argued that the world is more beautiful with more colors and shades.

[atariksi]

 

I am not wheedling out of it. The world is more beautiful without C64's distorted color images. More beautiful doesn't always mean better as the crime in the world may go up if things were more beautiful (for example). And that wasn't a comparison with A8. If artist didn't have a C64, the painting would be done with real colors/shades (analog palette) or with A8 which was 2nd cheapest popular machine at the time and has more accurate colors or perhaps even some PGA card.

 

Have you never been to an art gallery? Never seen some of the classics? Artists used limited palettes throughout history either because they had to or chose to. Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder.

 

There are MANY beautiful pictures on the C64, if you don't class them as such then that's an opinion, not a fact. Maybe its a case of you just don't make your meanings clear enough when you talk about these things. I can't see how "more beautiful" can be anything but better else why strive for more beautiful things? If that's not what you mean it still seems that way to most other people (if they're honest).

 

Where crime comes into it I have no idea. I'm sure you'll enlighten me

 

 

 

Pete

 

Actually, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is an opinion and we had a discussion about the objectivity of beauty recently in this thread. The example I gave for crime is also good since if you had more beautiful artwork you can end up with more robberies whereas some insignificant artwork no one may care about. Better and more beautiful world are not dependent.

 

True that some paintings can look like a few colors but the world is analog and has infinite shades and colors. If artist will get more beautiful results the lesser he is restricted.

 

That last 'If' should be "The".

[atarian63]

Atari A8 Frogger Vs C64 Frogger.

 

Already been done. Thanks for the stereo view though. Should we cross our eyes and pretend the vids are in 3d?

 

 

You want a game that looked alot better on the atari?

 

How about Koronis Rift by Lucasfilm..

 

Already been done!

Yep,it has and it's oh so true, A8 version is better, has better color and plays correctly. The c64 version is very weak and play is jerky and wrong.

Edited October 15, 2009 by atarian63

[Bryan]

Time for a classic!

 

 

Full half hour...

 

 

Pete

Personally, I'm looking forward to the "being hit on the head lessons."

[PeteD]

 

Actually, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is an opinion and we had a discussion about the objectivity of beauty recently in this thread. The example I gave for crime is also good since if you had more beautiful artwork you can end up with more robberies whereas some insignificant artwork no one may care about. Better and more beautiful world are not dependent.

 

True that some paintings can look like a few colors but the world is analog and has infinite shades and colors. If artist will get more beautiful results the lesser he is restricted.

 

Honestly?

 

The very fact that some people prefer different art, partners, cars, etc is BECAUSE of the truism that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that choice itself is the opinion here, not the statemnt. As far as I remember the recent discussion consisted of your opinion vs someone else's and was never resolved apart from you insisting more colours was more beautiful and them saying I don't agree, so pointing back to that is useless because nothing came from it.

 

The art/robberies thing is only true if there are more (or more inclined) criminals in the world, it's nothing to do with the beauty of it so much as it's worth. Art is worth money because someone decided it's beautiful, not because it's more colourful or more beautiful to the robber.

 

I have never said (remember that phrase?) that they are dependant, that's you putting words into my mouth again or at least presuming that's what I'm thinking. I said, "I can't see how "more beautiful" can be anything but better else why strive for more beautiful things?", that if something is more beautiful to someone it follows that it is better to that person, if not then it wouldn't be more beautiful. The terms are linked, not dependant. *edit* dependant, not exclusive

 

Artists sometimes choose to use less colours and still produce works of beauty, ala the C64, many pixel artists choose the C64 palette even on modern hardware because it IS a challenge, if it resulted in ugly pictures they wouldn't waste their time. If you're denying those pictures can be beautiful to anyone then you're more blinkered than I thought.

 

 

Pete

Edited October 15, 2009 by PeteD

[atariksi]

 

Actually, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is an opinion and we had a discussion about the objectivity of beauty recently in this thread. The example I gave for crime is also good since if you had more beautiful artwork you can end up with more robberies whereas some insignificant artwork no one may care about. Better and more beautiful world are not dependent.

 

True that some paintings can look like a few colors but the world is analog and has infinite shades and colors. If artist will get more beautiful results the lesser he is restricted.

 

Honestly?

...

Yes.

 

The very fact that some people prefer different art, partners, cars, etc is BECAUSE of the truism that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that choice itself is the opinion here, not the statemnt. As far as I remember the recent discussion consisted of your opinion vs someone else's and was never resolved apart from you insisting more colours was more beautiful and them saying I don't agree, so pointing back to that is useless because nothing came from it.

...

So you would like to believe. I proved it. I have no idea what you read. It part of theory of digitization. I stated that as long as you don't abuse the colors, the more colors/shades the more beautiful the world.

 

The art/robberies thing is only true if there are more (or more inclined) criminals in the world, it's nothing to do with the beauty of it so much as it's worth. Art is worth money because someone decided it's beautiful, not because it's more colourful or more beautiful to the robber.

They are not related. Art is worth money because it's more beautiful.

 

I have never said (remember that phrase?) that they are dependant, that's you putting words into my mouth again or at least presuming that's what I'm thinking. I said, "I can't see how "more beautiful" can be anything but better else why strive for more beautiful things?", that if something is more beautiful to someone it follows that it is better to that person, if not then it wouldn't be more beautiful. The terms are linked, not dependant. *edit* dependant, not exclusive

...

More beautiful is not necessarily better for the world. Remember the statement is that more colors and more shades make the *world* make more beautiful. I am not saying more colors and more shades make the world better. There are other factors to make the world better or worse.

 

Artists sometimes choose to use less colours and still produce works of beauty, ala the C64, many pixel artists choose the C64 palette even on modern hardware because it IS a challenge, if it resulted in ugly pictures they wouldn't waste their time. If you're denying those pictures can be beautiful to anyone then you're more blinkered than I thought.

...

Another key word is MORE. You get more beautiful results with more colors and shades. If you had 256 colors, C64 pictures wouldn't be as ugly as they are.

[PeteD]

I give up, same old round and round. Your opinion is right and nobody else is allowed to disagree (you PROVED it after all). It's ALL down to opinion, the whole of the last few posts. Your opinion that more colours is better or more beautiful etc and mine that it isn't but somehow you're right and I'm not.

 

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just trying to get you to admit you also aren't RIGHT because I'm allowed a choice. You're also trying to alter the meanings of my post again (I didn't say better for the "world", just better for the individual, as in personal opinion) so what's the point in continuing when you can't just be straight with me. If you think you aren't read your replies again if you still think you aren't then please go back to ignoring me because it'll save both of us some time..

 

btw, C64 pictures are NOT ugly, that's your opinion, not fact and every time you say it as if it was outright fact I lose even more respect for your opinion as I think other people are.

 

 

Pete