potatohead Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I find the thread entertaining, informative, and quite humorous. And it's only one thread! Not like there is a whole sub-forum, where the natives are at war, or anything like that. It's just one (admittedly long) thread. To me, it's kind of like a retro round table. We've got alphas here talking about things they enjoy, technical, artistic, you name it. Since it is a nice, round table, we've a few clowns lobbing things in, from time to time, and just a boob or two. This all is the catalyst for ongoing and interesting discussion. Kind of perfect, if you ask me. And, where else is there a running conversation, updated daily, related to the hardware we love? This just is not a bad thing, and I would be disappointed to learn it was not going to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=attach&tid=134852 Al, that's interesting and something I didn't know could be done. Thanks! What a collection of stuff! Mix in the discussion, and it's awesome really. Thanks. Edit: So then, most of the world doesn't care. But, those here that do care, really, really, really freaking care. Like I wrote above, it's kind of a small, special pool. No sense pissing in it, is there? Edited October 17, 2009 by potatohead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I propose Perhaps this is too basic?! i've made a few notes to myself (basically i went through CPC Game Reviews in a quiet hour earlier today) and Abu Simbel Profanation was on the list of "maybe" titles i ended up with; for the first go, i reckon it needs to be something single screen and action-oriented and we go onwards from there. Now i've written that, i'm slightly worried in that i'm beginning to see this whole thing as ongoing (although i have no idea over what sort of timescale) - after all it works for the Minigame compo. =-) I was thinking about "Abadia del Crimen" a spanish Isometric game but I know that this kind of game is not loved that much and also it uses mode 1 on the CPC AND it would put the A8 ahead of the C64 as it has more cpu grunt. I'd be up for the isometric game. It's always been one of my favourite display methods (although when I had to port a PC game to the PSX where no thought had gone into if the PSX could ever handle it I kind of fell out of love with it a bit lol). If you know what you're doing, CPU can be less of a factor on both machines Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 To me, it's kind of like a retro round table. We've got alphas here talking about things they enjoy, technical, artistic, you name it. Since it is a nice, round table, we've a few clowns lobbing things in, from time to time, and just a boob or two. Oy, i resemble that! And anyway, you haven't noticed but i've been hacking chunks out of the round table so it looks like a Pac-man. =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 My link i have one too Steve I like the Immediate Launch piccy - very cool sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 This is an interesting page to look at: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=attach&tid=134852 It shows all the attachments that have been posted to this thread. This doesn't include inline images that have been hosted elsewhere, but it's still over 1,300 images (50 to a page and 27 pages). Each row contains a link to the original post the image was posted in. Oooh, fun toy! Hey Ste, one of your pictures turned up on page five! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I propose Perhaps this is too basic?! i've made a few notes to myself (basically i went through CPC Game Reviews in a quiet hour earlier today) and Abu Simbel Profanation was on the list of "maybe" titles i ended up with; for the first go, i reckon it needs to be something single screen and action-oriented and we go onwards from there. Now i've written that, i'm slightly worried in that i'm beginning to see this whole thing as ongoing (although i have no idea over what sort of timescale) - after all it works for the Minigame compo. =-) I was thinking about "Abadia del Crimen" a spanish Isometric game but I know that this kind of game is not loved that much and also it uses mode 1 on the CPC AND it would put the A8 ahead of the C64 as it has more cpu grunt. I'd be up for the isometric game. It's always been one of my favourite display methods (although when I had to port a PC game to the PSX where no thought had gone into if the PSX could ever handle it I kind of fell out of love with it a bit lol). If you know what you're doing, CPU can be less of a factor on both machines Pete How would you approach this then? For example Head Over Heels on the c64 had to have some rooms changed because it would run too slow. But I know also that it was a direct translation from the Z80 code... This means that HW sprites were not used etc. How fast would you think it could go implementing your ideas? If this could be done then it would be awesome to port the Isometric Batman game from Ocean that appeared on the Spectrum, CPC and MSX.Perhaps using char mode instead of bitmap? You say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) I propose Perhaps this is too basic?! i've made a few notes to myself (basically i went through CPC Game Reviews in a quiet hour earlier today) and Abu Simbel Profanation was on the list of "maybe" titles i ended up with; for the first go, i reckon it needs to be something single screen and action-oriented and we go onwards from there. Now i've written that, i'm slightly worried in that i'm beginning to see this whole thing as ongoing (although i have no idea over what sort of timescale) - after all it works for the Minigame compo. =-) I was thinking about "Abadia del Crimen" a spanish Isometric game but I know that this kind of game is not loved that much and also it uses mode 1 on the CPC AND it would put the A8 ahead of the C64 as it has more cpu grunt. I'd be up for the isometric game. It's always been one of my favourite display methods (although when I had to port a PC game to the PSX where no thought had gone into if the PSX could ever handle it I kind of fell out of love with it a bit lol). If you know what you're doing, CPU can be less of a factor on both machines Pete How would you approach this then? For example Head Over Heels on the c64 had to have some rooms changed because it would run too slow. But I know also that it was a direct translation from the Z80 code... This means that HW sprites were not used etc. How fast would you think it could go implementing your ideas? If this could be done then it would be awesome to port the Isometric Batman game from Ocean that appeared on the Spectrum, CPC and MSX.Perhaps using char mode instead of bitmap? You say That would be giving secrets away Actually I've got some code somewhere I did not too long ago on C64 that works in ismoetric and doesn't have the speed issues of HoH. It was for a game that I'm determined to write on at least one platform one day. I've had the game design for about 10 years and test code on many different machines but never could find an artist free to do any graphics If I can dig it out I'll post a demo. It does use hardware sprites *edit* As far as speed, my test code ran with 4 "people" (blobs hehe) on screen and about 8 objects for them to walk around in 50fps but the test screen I'd done at the time was designed to not test the CPU limits too much. The screens on that CPC game look a bit more complex but that might just mean a different approach to part of my code. Pete Edited October 17, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Pete, The problem with Ritman's isometric like HoH and Batman is that you have the baddies and the main actor and then you can push objects/blocks and some also move like lifts. Does you engine do these things? Are you using bitmap or char mode? It would be cool to have access to that demo of yours. And it would be awesome if you could finish your game as for example speccy/amstrad fans boast that the c64 can't do iso games(fast with no need to alter rooms cause of the number of things moving). Edited October 17, 2009 by Atarigmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 The problem with Ritman0s isometric like HoH and Batman is that you have the baddies and the main actor and then you can push objects/blocks and some also move like lifts. Does you engine do these things? Are you using bitmap or char mode? It would be cool to have access to that demo of yours. And it would be awesome if you could finish your game as for example speccy/amstrad fans boast that the c64 can't do iso games(fast with no need to alter rooms cause of the number of things moving). It all depends on the number of objects on screen be they static, seemingly static, the player character or NPCs. The less of one the more of another (at least when keeping it full speed) so if there's a room where you can move lots of objects around but there's nothing but say a door in the foreground then it's easier than if there is a door, some blocks to stand on, some NPCs moving around AND some things to push. The test code I did just used char mode but it would make no difference (apart from more colours possible on screen) to use bitmap apart from the fact that the more colours (even in char mode) you use the trickier it becomes to design the static objects to go in the room because they have to share the same colour ram with the room itself. It wouldn't be a problem if each screen was designed as a bitmap but there isn't the ram for that so they have to be built from the isometric blocks. If it's simple mono or 4 colour it's not so much of a problem. I supposed thinking about it bitmap mode would be better even in 4 colour mode. The test screen I did was pretty sparse (due to my coder graphics lol) and I imagine a complex screen would soon run out of chars to plot the room into. The "engine" I've done isn't really an engine atm, just some test code from when I came back to playing around on C64 and realised some techniques/tricks I'd learned could be used to make iso stuff easier. I really would like to get it all running fully and find the real limits of it, it's even on my usual "coders list of things to do" for when I finish doing the current A8 projects I'm working on. As far as fast compared to speccy/amstrad I think even pushing it to their levels it should be as fast (dare I say faster) than them but that's just guesswork on my part because I haven't looked at how complex those games get. When I get time I'll try to find it and if I can't I'm pretty sure I've got my design document on how it works (I've seen that more recently than the code) so I'll post that, save me typing in a massive explanation of the system Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 The problem with Ritman0s isometric like HoH and Batman is that you have the baddies and the main actor and then you can push objects/blocks and some also move like lifts. Does you engine do these things? Are you using bitmap or char mode? It would be cool to have access to that demo of yours. And it would be awesome if you could finish your game as for example speccy/amstrad fans boast that the c64 can't do iso games(fast with no need to alter rooms cause of the number of things moving). It all depends on the number of objects on screen be they static, seemingly static, the player character or NPCs. The less of one the more of another (at least when keeping it full speed) so if there's a room where you can move lots of objects around but there's nothing but say a door in the foreground then it's easier than if there is a door, some blocks to stand on, some NPCs moving around AND some things to push. The test code I did just used char mode but it would make no difference (apart from more colours possible on screen) to use bitmap apart from the fact that the more colours (even in char mode) you use the trickier it becomes to design the static objects to go in the room because they have to share the same colour ram with the room itself. It wouldn't be a problem if each screen was designed as a bitmap but there isn't the ram for that so they have to be built from the isometric blocks. If it's simple mono or 4 colour it's not so much of a problem. I supposed thinking about it bitmap mode would be better even in 4 colour mode. The test screen I did was pretty sparse (due to my coder graphics lol) and I imagine a complex screen would soon run out of chars to plot the room into. The "engine" I've done isn't really an engine atm, just some test code from when I came back to playing around on C64 and realised some techniques/tricks I'd learned could be used to make iso stuff easier. I really would like to get it all running fully and find the real limits of it, it's even on my usual "coders list of things to do" for when I finish doing the current A8 projects I'm working on. As far as fast compared to speccy/amstrad I think even pushing it to their levels it should be as fast (dare I say faster) than them but that's just guesswork on my part because I haven't looked at how complex those games get. When I get time I'll try to find it and if I can't I'm pretty sure I've got my design document on how it works (I've seen that more recently than the code) so I'll post that, save me typing in a massive explanation of the system Pete Any links to your Atari projects? You could code a remake of HoH as you could use the existent gfx but instead of the z80 translation, your news ideas on using isometric stuff on the c64:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 @TMR Yeah, the table does have a few "chunks" missing, doesn't it? It's just character that adds to the flavor of the thing. Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Any links to your Atari projects? You could code a remake of HoH as you could use the existent gfx but instead of the z80 translation, your news ideas on using isometric stuff on the c64:D No links to A8 stuff yet but I'm porting Way of the Exploding Fist, another C64 game, an original shoot-em-up (started that a couple of days ago, but I promise not to release it before TMR does his hehe, Ste's dug up some more gfx btw) and a demo. I'm going to set up a blog I think so I can post pics and stuff without dropping them in here. A new HoH is a possibility but to be honest if I'm going to do anything with this iso code (at least as a first project) I'd much rather get some artists involved, do my game design and then either tackle the A8 one as well or pass logic code over to an interested A8 coder and get them to have a play with it. Pete Edited October 17, 2009 by PeteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I just looked at few "top ten" lists of CPC games on youtube. Almost all of those games exist on C64 and some even on A8... No good candidates there... But I like the idea! What about Rex ? http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/r/index5.html Or spectrum version: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0004129 Although I can not think of one game that would make both camps say "fair competition" I would accept any kind of challenge, at least to try to make best that can be made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saehn Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 No, I don't accept that B&W pictures are more beautiful than color pictures (of same object). You are just declaring beauty is subjective-- not showing I am wrong. It's more of a cop-out since it involves little effort on the part of the people to make such a vague blurb. It all comes down to this... you do understand the reality that outside, in the real world, there are actually people who seriously consider black-and-white photography to be more beautiful than color, don't you? If you deny this, you are denying reality... a disturbing trend. If, however, you accept that some people prefer B/W, then you must acknowledge the subjectivity of beauty. I think you are simply arguing to argue. You have no evidence to support your claim that beauty is an objective concept. The varying perspectives of people's differing opinions all over the world are in opposition to this notion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I just looked at few "top ten" lists of CPC games on youtube. Almost all of those games exist on C64 and some even on A8... No good candidates there... But I like the idea! What about Rex ? http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/r/index5.html Or spectrum version: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0004129 Although I can not think of one game that would make both camps say "fair competition" I would accept any kind of challenge, at least to try to make best that can be made... How could I forget about Rex, one of my all time favourites I played on my Timex 2048(speccy clone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Rex looks like a top game. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Rex looks like a top game. Pete It not only looks like a top game, its game play is superb too. Platform games do seem to be better for c64, but at least almost same code could be used for A8... Both platforms have stuff to offer... Why not make it using GTIA modes or some mix or PM underlays or GPRIOR effects ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) This one should surprise you folks. 47 - INTERNATIONAL KARATE / WORLD KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP C64 C64 C64 Generally, both versions look and play practically identical, but there are 2 "BUTs". BUT 1 - the C64 version has better and much longer music. Don't ask my "why ?"...ask Rob Hubbard. BUT 2 - there are 8 stages on C64, whereas only 7 on ATARI. Yeap, the Westminster was cut off from A8 version. I don't know why Atari programmers hated London so much, but that's the fact. Anyway, C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI ATARI Edited October 17, 2009 by Rockford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 the A8 soundtrack is long, too... and maybe the c64 port was 2nd after the original... they added London for patriotism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 and rockford... why are you not displaying the stages where actually the A8 version uses DLIs to spice up the gfx??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 the A8 soundtrack is long, too... and maybe the c64 port was 2nd after the original... they added London for patriotism? But still, the A8 soundtrack is substantially shorter and much of it was cut. It's a pity, because it is really great music by Hubbard. As far as I know the C64 version was first, however I'm not sure. I will have to check it later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 need to ask Hubbard as he has done both msx... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) and rockford... why are you not displaying the stages where actually the A8 version uses DLIs to spice up the gfx??? Well I did as always, I took pictures from c64gamebase and lemon64 (there are only 2 stages here). The A8 pictures are from Atarimania (as usual) and I had to pick the same (equivalents - as always) that I had taken from Lemon/64gamebase. The C64 London stage is a different story, since it wasn't easy to find this picture. Edited October 17, 2009 by Rockford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) ..BUT 2 - there are 8 stages on C64, whereas only 7 on ATARI. Yeap, the Westminster was cut off from A8 version. I don't know why Atari programmers hated London so much, but that's the fact. The Atari version is 48k remember and with the disk release we have lower capacity disks and only one side was used as it was a flippy with the c64. With a lower market compared to other platforms, most Atari games were 48k or less to ensure that they were able to target all the models in the A8 range for potential sales. I recall the dreadful Green Beret was also only 32k. I can understand from the sales point but they might as well have not bothered as it was just sealing up the coffin putting stuff out so poorly (in relation to Green Beret I mean not IK). EDIT * I should mention that the disks are usually low capacity formated to cover all available standard drives for the same reasons as the low ram use obviously. Also, I should say they covered most A8 models and not all as that wouldn't include the original unexpanded 400. Edited October 17, 2009 by Tezz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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