Atari v Commodore

[PeteD]

 

 

I stated that A8 loads faster as a + for A8 but you claimed C64 was on Cart, but that doesn't refute the point that A8 loads faster.

 

I also haven't spotted where there is flicker on A8 version-- I have been playing this game for many years. C64 flicker is obvious and almost always present. Music sounds better to me on A8 as well although I did not bother putting that in my list. A8 would in general win out in collision detection although I'm going by tech. articles I read rather than examining any source code.

 

Your original statement was "-A8 is 16K ROM or disk-based so it loads faster (like most things)." I just said that it came on cart on C64 as well so meaning 0 load time if that's what someone wanted. I've just stated a fact, nothing more.

 

Collision detection post hardware registers is likely the same on both versions unless they're both written from scratch and share no code, even then there's only so many ways to write something that has the same result (compare x/y of bullet to list of x/y of enemies, bounding box or other check). If the attack patterns are the same and the ships end up in the same formation some software check needs to be done to say exactly which few pixels containing an enemy has been hit.

 

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

But Atari added features to the GTIA that meant that, if games used them, the 400 and 800 couldn't run the game.

 

No... GTIA came very early on. CTIA is so rare that virtually nobody here has one.

 

When GTIA came out, the majority had a CTIA so had there been a massive influx of software that required it, users either had to have their existing machine upgraded or not be able to use it; wood_jl said that fixing the A8 to give it more flexibility would introduce incompatibility, i mentioned the GTIA modes in that context as an example of Atari not being shy of doing that.

 

If they enhanced it without worrying about existing CTIA functionality, it would cause incompatibility. They added GTIA functionality while maintaining backward compatibility with ANTIC and previous CTIA modes. This is unlike what Commodore did by introducing a whole line of incompatible machines-- Pet, Vic-20, C64, C16, etc. It's easier and cheaper to just redesign, but compatibility is a major good point as already discussed.

[PeteD]

Agreed there will be some more overhead because anything that is made from PMGs on the A8 has more "resolution" lets call it for checking what it's collided with where the C64 just gets some bits to say "something" happened but it's not much more.

 

In the case of Gyruss, it's a hybrid; hardware collision is used for player to nasties and nasty bullets and software for the more involved job of checking all the player bullets against the nasties. i didn't bother disassembling the code, merely used the Atari 800Win cheat options to turn off the hardware collisions to see what kept going and with just player to playfield disabled, the player's ship becomes totally invulnerable.

 

Actually... has anyone else noticed the "random nasty death" issues around stage four or is that just the crack in the Homesoft collection?

 

Yup, that's what I was trying to point out. There is no "simple" way to check collisions using hardware against a load of software sprite bad guys (short of saving a PF or a PMG, shoving it where each sprite is, checking the hardware registers, etc). ergo it can't be only hardware collisions..

 

 

 

Pete

 

Well missiles also have a lot of combinations so I'm sure it's doable.

 

I'm sure it is as well, but there would still need to be some form of software intervention. You could put the missiles in the positions of the sprites when they're settled in their waveform, but there are still too many pixels/ships there for the number of missiles, you could maybe check every scanline what the collisions hold (if there are no more then #Missiles per available per scanline) but that's still software intervention. You really may as well just do a constant check for bullets x/y if they're within range of the internal formation check all of those, if not check only the moving waveforms. It's something you'll have to do in the end anyway because they're all software sprites on A8 so it's really only alien/alien bullet to player ship that's possible fully in hardware and even then you wouldn't be able to tell WHAT hit it. Result, not much different to the C64.

 

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

But Atari added features to the GTIA that meant that, if games used them, the 400 and 800 couldn't run the game.

 

No... GTIA came very early on. CTIA is so rare that virtually nobody here has one.

 

When GTIA came out, the majority had a CTIA so had there been a massive influx of software that required it, users either had to have their existing machine upgraded or not be able to use it; wood_jl said that fixing the A8 to give it more flexibility would introduce incompatibility, i mentioned the GTIA modes in that context as an example of Atari not being shy of doing that.

 

Again... GTIA was designed first, but for time reasons, Atari 8bit systems were released with a reduced prototype CTIA. On 1980, Atari sold the GTIA chip to extend the old machines (as should be), and new 400/800 production came with GTIA. In other words, that was planning before the release of 400/800.

 

Actually, I have yet to see a machine that has a CTIA (and I have worked with hundreds of a400/a800 machines). I bought my A800 new w/48K and GTIA and this was before any XLs came to market. So either the A400/A800 came with GTIA or people didn't think it a big deal to pop the new chip in the socket.

And GTIA is hardware register compatible with CTIA. Only two bits were added to 53275 register that were previously unused. Obviously more could have been done.

[JamesD]

Puhleezzz. The c64 has one of the worst keyboards next to the chiclet kb of the pc JR

 

Nsh, you show your lack of ownership of EVERY 8bit computer ever made unlike me

 

There are plenty of machines with worse keyboards than the C64 (the XE style being one for sure...which IS cheap cheap spongy cheap) Amstrad CPC, Jupiter Ace, Dragon 32/64, Aquarius, Spectrum+ +2, +3 128 QL, Sord M5 and the list goes on.

The C64 had a better keyboard than the Dragon?

Sorry, I have to disagree.

I have a Tano Dragon and I like the touch on it better than the C64s I've used, but I've never used the later C64s.

I won't disagree on the others listed.

 

The Color Genie keyboard is ok but a little springy and noisy.

The Franklin Ace 1000 keyboard feels a little stiff, kinda feels like they were shooting for an electric typewriter feel.

The Plus/4 keyboard is pretty good. If later C64s were like it I have no problem with them.

[PeteD]

Speaking of Ataris and versions thereof. Is there any 4 joystick adapter for later models when they stripped the 2 off? I know the register is now used for something else, but maybe something that plugs in to the serial bus or something? I was hoping to eventually do a 4 player Exploding Fist/IK style game and then remembered that I didn't even have a machine with 4 ports.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

 

 

I stated that A8 loads faster as a + for A8 but you claimed C64 was on Cart, but that doesn't refute the point that A8 loads faster.

 

I also haven't spotted where there is flicker on A8 version-- I have been playing this game for many years. C64 flicker is obvious and almost always present. Music sounds better to me on A8 as well although I did not bother putting that in my list. A8 would in general win out in collision detection although I'm going by tech. articles I read rather than examining any source code.

 

Your original statement was "-A8 is 16K ROM or disk-based so it loads faster (like most things)." I just said that it came on cart on C64 as well so meaning 0 load time if that's what someone wanted. I've just stated a fact, nothing more.

 

...

 

Okay, granted there's a C64 cartridge version of Gyruss but that still doesn't refute the argument that A8 loads faster as there are also disk versions. Cartridge load time is negligible obviously.

[Allas]

 

 

Your original statement was "-A8 is 16K ROM or disk-based so it loads faster (like most things)." I just said that it came on cart on C64 as well so meaning 0 load time if that's what someone wanted. I've just stated a fact, nothing more.

 

 

 

No, Atari cartridge load at zero seconds, C64 Gyruss cartridge load at 3 seconds.

[PeteD]

 

 

I stated that A8 loads faster as a + for A8 but you claimed C64 was on Cart, but that doesn't refute the point that A8 loads faster.

 

I also haven't spotted where there is flicker on A8 version-- I have been playing this game for many years. C64 flicker is obvious and almost always present. Music sounds better to me on A8 as well although I did not bother putting that in my list. A8 would in general win out in collision detection although I'm going by tech. articles I read rather than examining any source code.

 

Your original statement was "-A8 is 16K ROM or disk-based so it loads faster (like most things)." I just said that it came on cart on C64 as well so meaning 0 load time if that's what someone wanted. I've just stated a fact, nothing more.

 

...

 

Okay, granted there's a C64 cartridge version of Gyruss but that still doesn't refute the argument that A8 loads faster as there are also disk versions. Cartridge load time is negligible obviously.

 

Correct, and did you see me try to refute it anywhere? As I said, I simply pointed out a fact in reply to something on your list of why A8 version is better to let people know that at least a cart version existed for C64 also. Disk loading speed for the A8 or C64, I don't know I've never timed them both. If the A8s disk drive is faster then logically it should load faster unless the C64 version was compressed. I won't guess as to if it is or not.

 

 

Pete

[Wrathchild]

Is there any 4 joystick adapter for later models when they stripped the 2 off?

Take a look at Multi-Joy. I saw a mass game of Cervi (can be seen on this page) the year I went to AtariAda - that was great!

[PeteD]

Is there any 4 joystick adapter for later models when they stripped the 2 off?

Take a look at Multi-Joy. I saw a mass game of Cervi (can be seen on this page) the year I went to AtariAda - that was great!

 

 

Brilliant, thanks I don't think google translate reaaaly means this though..

 

To je všechno. That is all. Teď už můžete začít vesele programovat hry pro současně "pařících" až 16 lidí.

Now you can start programming games for gay as well as "mating" to 16 people.

 

 

Pete

[Azhrei]

... but it's wrong to attack the competing system or it's users! Saying things that the A8 is clearly the superior machine, or the C64 sold so much more it's not even worth talking about - this kind of talk is ridiculous.

 

Yawn... just another C64 freak with polite words.

 

The whole tread meanwhile is about "vice versa"...

 

C64 guys come along to an Atari forum, telling everyone that the C64 is the deus ex machina, thus not accepting that the A8 has its superiorities. So, please go back to lemon, thanks.

 

I really have nothing to say that will make you look worse for posting this.

 

Everyone else - thank you for your welcomes! This thread has gotten me really interested in the Atari 8-bits. Sadly I'm only re-building my Commodore system at the moment and I have very little space for that, so an Atari machine is not a likely purchase in the near future.

 

Ah well, there are emulators...

[Irgendwer]

Edit: Was to slow, 'Multijoy' already mentioned.

English text is here.

 

Further neat info is here.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Irgendwer

[PeteD]

Edit: Was to slow, 'Multijoy' already mentioned.

English text is here.

 

Further neat info is here.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Pete

[Allas]

... but it's wrong to attack the competing system or it's users! Saying things that the A8 is clearly the superior machine, or the C64 sold so much more it's not even worth talking about - this kind of talk is ridiculous.

 

Yawn... just another C64 freak with polite words.

 

The whole tread meanwhile is about "vice versa"...

 

C64 guys come along to an Atari forum, telling everyone that the C64 is the deus ex machina, thus not accepting that the A8 has its superiorities. So, please go back to lemon, thanks.

 

I really have nothing to say that will make you look worse for posting this.

 

Everyone else - thank you for your welcomes! This thread has gotten me really interested in the Atari 8-bits. Sadly I'm only re-building my Commodore system at the moment and I have very little space for that, so an Atari machine is not a likely purchase in the near future.

 

Ah well, there are emulators...

 

Another R from lemon

[atariksi]

 

Well, if you argue with Rockford, you just have to do random searches on the internet and do a speculative reconstruction. For example, you can prove A2600 of Gyruss is better by the price:

 

C64 full disk version:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370198398604

 

Just the manual for the A2600 version is more expensive:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260310066266

Funny, so far, only atarians have compared random games on different platforms (as you have just done). I've been comparing only C64 & A8 games. You know, day by day, meticulously according to my list. So, it's rather far from random, don't you think ? LOL But as always, you are the one who knows what other people think and do.

it was to point out some c64 games are so poor that they arent as good as even a much lesser system. Only a dolt could miss that.

Especially that he compared the ebay prices. Why didn't he compare the C64 disc to the gyruss arcade...it would make sense as well.

Look it's even more expensive.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Centuri-GYRUSS-arcade-coin-op-machine_W0QQitemZ320437688114QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9b931732

What does it prove ? That somebody put it out on ebay at that price. And so what ? What a brainiac you are.

As usual your comments make no point or no sense.

no my problem if you dont have the $$ for the real deal.

 

He starts making false accusations and calling people names when he can't deal with the argument or doesn't understand it (like in this case). Looks like he misread my example: "if you argue with Rockford, you just have to do random searches..." He did in fact try to establish Atari was cheaper system earlier using random searches for prices on the internet and then he goes and blames people what does some price quotes establish. It doesn't establish any price-- you can have various prices all over the world.

[atariksi]

World Soccer, yeah nothing to rave on about on Commodore, couple of screens thrown together, bad AI, the ATARI 800 has clearer screens, that's all.

 

He probably has 10 soccer games on C64 that have hires miscolored graphics and that hardly anyone has heard of or uses.

[atarian63]

Puhleezzz. The c64 has one of the worst keyboards next to the chiclet kb of the pc JR

 

Of course that's personal, subjective opinion...

 

The c64 at introduction was nothing more than a very cheaply made toy.

 

If that were true (it isn't, of course) then the A8 series was thrashed rather severely on both the hardware and software sales fronts by a "cheaply made toy" and that's a bit like having a console on the market now and realising that you're being beaten in popularity by something like the V.Smile TV Learning System.

it is poorly made and V-smile is better built. So leave it to the great unwashed to pick the crappy model. Kind of like a cheap car vs a porsche. cheap car sells more. Porsche is better

[TMR]

Again... GTIA was designed first, but for time reasons, Atari 8bit systems were released with a reduced prototype CTIA.

 

That's also beside the point, CTIA came first and GTIA added features that weren't backwards compatible. It doesn't matter which order they were meant to be released in at all, the important bit is that Atari were willing to add things to the hardware at that point that could lead to software being incompatible.

[atarian63]

World Soccer, yeah nothing to rave on about on Commodore, couple of screens thrown together, bad AI, the ATARI 800 has clearer screens, that's all.

Well, I see you haven't bought a pair of new glasses yet. The sooner the better.

more trolling

 

"The c64 at introduction was nothing more than a very cheaply made toy."

 

And that isn't?

 

 

Pete

nope, that was how it was viewed by retailers. I know I was one during the period. You'll have to try more things to show your rockford love

[atariksi]

I had to register on these forums just to reply to this thread - the link to which I've seen on the Lemon 64 forums. This has to be the thread with some of the silliest posts on the entire Internet!

...

There are also intellectual posts on this thread. So be unbiased and accept both unless they only linked to the silly posts on this thread from the Lemon 64 bubble that you came from.

[Allas]

Again... GTIA was designed first, but for time reasons, Atari 8bit systems were released with a reduced prototype CTIA.

 

That's also beside the point, CTIA came first and GTIA added features that weren't backwards compatible. It doesn't matter which order they were meant to be released in at all, the important bit is that Atari were willing to add things to the hardware at that point that could lead to software being incompatible.

 

Incompatible? What are you talking?

GTIA do all CTIA can do.

[atarian63]

 

 

As usual your comments make no point or no sense.

 

But your comments always make "sense", like comparing C64 games to A2600 games or posting fart videos. ROTFL

 

 

no my problem if you dont have the $$ for the real deal.

What an incredibly moving Rockefeller-like speech. LOL

Fart videos were especially for you. It was to illustrate your level of mentality in your posts which you continue to do.

As for Rockefeller.. Hey one has to aspire. You should try it.

Edited October 24, 2009 by atarian63

[atarian63]

 

The C64 version has better hi-res graphics and more colours. The Atari version has worse graphics with limited colours. C64 wins again.

 

 

Let's see the f*cking GAMEPLAY screens. Who gives a sh*t about the menu screens.

Yeah, who gives...it's not me for sure, since these are exact "f*cking GAMEPLAY screens". Imagine that there are football manager games and this one is one of them.

still shots in some of you examples are not gameplay. Think McFly!

You didn't understand what was written. Maybe you should try again ?

Nonsense as usual

[atariksi]

Again... GTIA was designed first, but for time reasons, Atari 8bit systems were released with a reduced prototype CTIA.

 

That's also beside the point, CTIA came first and GTIA added features that weren't backwards compatible. It doesn't matter which order they were meant to be released in at all, the important bit is that Atari were willing to add things to the hardware at that point that could lead to software being incompatible.

 

Now this is an example of silly post. BACKWARD compatible means that new features don't affect the functionality of the old features. That's what GTIA did. Just like parallel ports went from SPP -> BPP -> EPP -> ECP and your latest and greatest parallel port still can do SPP without any problems. Just like PC video cards went from CGA -> EGA -> MCGA/VGA -> SVGA and your latest and greatest SVGA cards still can run CGA modes. It's much harder to make things backward compatible then to just put new chips in and make a new hardware. And it helps to maintain backward compatibility since many people wrote very nice software on CTIA or CGA or using SPP and many may never write that software again or are dead and gone. No one wants to start from scratch after they have built up a big investment of money, programming, learning, etc. Not maintaining backward compatibility is the one of the main reasons many companies are no longer around. I am not just accusing Commodore's early lines of machines. Atari ST would also have been much better if they maintained backward compatibility.