Atari v Commodore

[emkay]

sure, you can ask me showing a c64 demo which does what the c64 can not (48 colors) . I could similarly ask you showing me an a8 demo moving 120 sprites at 50fps. none of them makes sense.

 

 

Hm.... so why, at all, do you still post this nonsenses?

[Heaven/TQA]

Just one good example is enough, and there are at least 30 games with this mode on ingame screen.

 

so 30 vs a few thousands, or ten thousand ? all that silicon space could have been used to make a true 16 color mode fex. using 4 pixel wide pixels with 16 color registers.

 

I'm curious, how do you test Atari games:

 

I dont. I dont write reviews either where always the c64 wins because the "gfx feels better" or because "the colors feel better" or because the "sound feels better" or the "playabality feels better", nor do I write "gfx is almost the same,this sprite is nicer on a8, that sprite is nicer on c64 so overall the a8 is better"

 

That's definitly puts you out of the ring... sorry... you are discussing without ever testing the games???

[Oswald]

Oswald,

 

Un-important and Underused - there are differences - allow me to elucidate:

 

Unimportant - not important; petty.

 

Underused - not fully used : having more potential than is currently being realized or utilized

 

(from the regular dictionary before you question the voracity of my statement again)

 

So I ask again - how on earth can a graphic mode be Petty???

 

sTeVE

 

1. I have never said there is no differences, nor anything that implies it.

2. if a gfx mode is only used by 0.1% of the applications on a machine

[dwhyte]

Stop trolling please, Oswald... It is starting to become annoying...

[Oswald]

That's definitly puts you out of the ring... sorry... you are discussing without ever testing the games???

 

*sigh*

 

I watch them as video if possible. but I wouldnt call that testing like allas. and how many of here are playing these games on both systems ?

[Oswald]

sure, you can ask me showing a c64 demo which does what the c64 can not (48 colors) . I could similarly ask you showing me an a8 demo moving 120 sprites at 50fps. none of them makes sense.

 

 

Hm.... so why, at all, do you still post this nonsenses?

 

what do you mean? it wasnt me who asked you showing a video of the a8 doing something it cant.

 

but you claimed a8 can do turrican better than the c64 and it can do turrican in 16 bit quality.

 

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

Edited December 11, 2008 by Oswald

[Bryan]

Many A8 beginners (like you) didn't know that char modes and GTIA modes are mixable, since there is no Basic equivalent 'graphics'-mode - so it's a little bit out of sight.

 

hmm so its not wasting silicon as I wrote in my previous post. really strange tho why miner choosed to go this way instead of attribute memory. might have felt like a good idea back then. which machine was the first with color-cell stuff ?

GTIA was the work of George McLeod. Color attributes would require changes to Antic and extra DMA cycles. The GTIA modes are simply re-interpretations of the data. It would be nice if some other options had been available, but apparently just adding those three put the chip behind schedule.

[dwhyte]

That's definitly puts you out of the ring... sorry... you are discussing without ever testing the games???

 

*sigh*

 

I watch them as video if possible. but I wouldnt call that testing like allas. and how many of here are playing these games on both systems ?

 

Ahhh... Of course... Just watching a video makes you an expert to all of us... Like I said before Oswald, STOP TROLLING. This is an open forum where anyone can speak, however, you are not making any friends here whatsoever with your biased views, and in turn, proving your ignorance, both technical and social...

Edited December 11, 2008 by dwhyte

[Bryan]

By the way, the Atari has a crude form of attribute where the top bit of the character changes how it's displayed. In the 4-color text modes it exchanges one of the colors for an alternate one giving you 5 colors overall. To get more than 5, you need to start using Players or DLI's (or GTIA modes). For high res text, it is generally used to invert characters.

 

This limits character sets to 128 characters, however.

[Sikor]

22 - DEFENDER

 

Atari screenshots

 

This time C64 have the best colors in it, but the action and impressive explosions are on Atari version. On advanced levels you feel like the boss of the universe!, thanks for the 1.7Mhz speed.

 

In February 1980 Williams Electronics decided to hire Eugene Javis to create his first video game called DEFENDER. Jarvis was a fanatic of the violence and action, so he focused on chaos when he starting the design of his first video game. First, he think on a game similar to Space Invaders, after a few time he change the concept for an Asteroids clone. he wasn't happy with the size of screen:

 

"I came up with scrolling the screen, making the field larger than the actual screen. The DEFENDER world turned out to be three and one-half screens or seven screens or something. Having a universe that was larger than the screen, that was just a huge, huge breakthrough.

My original idea was to go one direction. I tended to want to go left to right. My friend told me that was bogus, that you needed to be able to go backward. Changing the program to make it backward was a pain in the ass, but he finally talked to me into it."

 

"Somewhere during that time, I just wanted to put all my stuff in a box and quit. I don't know why I didn't actually quit. Everyone was hassling me on spending so much time on these little astronauts guys.

Around this time, a really talented guy joined the team. His name was Sam Dicker. He was about 19 years old.

He did really incredible effects for the game. All of a sudden, we were blowing up things, we had some sound going, and it was starting to get fun."

 

- Eugene Jarvis -

 

At 1983, Steve Baker ported the arcade DEFENDER game for Atari 800 machines.

 

C64 screenshots

 

Defender is great game for me. I play it many times on real arcade. And - you belive me - Atari version is the best conversion of it. One thing: atari has two version: disk and cartridge. Cartdridge version has some graphics differences than disk version and look as the arcade version. Great port!!!

[Crazyace]

Many A8 beginners (like you) didn't know that char modes and GTIA modes are mixable, since there is no Basic equivalent 'graphics'-mode - so it's a little bit out of sight.

 

hmm so its not wasting silicon as I wrote in my previous post. really strange tho why miner choosed to go this way instead of attribute memory. might have felt like a good idea back then. which machine was the first with color-cell stuff ?

 

I think the TI99/4 was the first colour cell machine ( on computer - not sure about the intellivision though ) - although the Vic20 was released pretty soon after. ( I dont know when the 9918 VDP was designed ) - of course I think that the concept may have come from the teletext display systems , as they appeared on TV's earlier ( I remember the SAA5050 on the BBC being there only for Mode7... but they ( or similar )were in UK TVs from 1977.. not sure about the US )

 

I think the GTIA modes weren't actually wasting any silicon - they just route 4 bits directly to luma or chroma ... ( or in the mode 10 case directly to the pallette entries as there would already be a pixel path of 4 bits to colour BAK/PF0-PF3 and P0-P3 )

Attribute memory in the Vic sense would be expensive, although I reckon Antic could handle attributed hires graphics without any extra memory ( by using the internal character memory as attribute storage )

It was forward looking enough to make Antic address all of the address range , as the chips were designed for a console, and released on a machine with 8k ram

[Oswald]

GTIA was the work of George McLeod. Color attributes would require changes to Antic and extra DMA cycles. The GTIA modes are simply re-interpretations of the data. It would be nice if some other options had been available, but apparently just adding those three put the chip behind schedule.

 

was he also working on the amiga?

 

so gtia is kindof a shift register+color lookup circuitry fed by the antic?

 

what three ? 320x 160x 80x ?

 

behind what schedule ?

[Oswald]

( I remember the SAA5050 on the BBC being there only for Mode7... but they ( or similar )were in UK TVs from 1977.. not sure about the US )

 

wow, funny fact

 

although I reckon Antic could handle attributed hires graphics without any extra memory ( by using the internal character memory as attribute storage )

 

yeah, could've been 128 colors/ char

[Oswald]

Defender is great game for me. I play it many times on real arcade. And - you belive me - Atari version is the best conversion of it. One thing: atari has two version: disk and cartridge. Cartdridge version has some graphics differences than disk version and look as the arcade version. Great port!!!

 

have you played it on all 8bits it was ported to? if not according to heaven you are out of the ring

[emkay]

sure, you can ask me showing a c64 demo which does what the c64 can not (48 colors) . I could similarly ask you showing me an a8 demo moving 120 sprites at 50fps. none of them makes sense.

 

 

Hm.... so why, at all, do you still post this nonsenses?

 

what do you mean? it wasnt me who asked you showing a video of the a8 doing something it cant.

 

but you claimed a8 can do turrican better than the c64 and it can do turrican in 16 bit quality.

 

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

 

 

The whole thread is spreaded over 50 pages just because some guy named Oswald is telling stuff that the A8 cannot do...

[Oswald]

sure, you can ask me showing a c64 demo which does what the c64 can not (48 colors) . I could similarly ask you showing me an a8 demo moving 120 sprites at 50fps. none of them makes sense.

 

 

Hm.... so why, at all, do you still post this nonsenses?

 

what do you mean? it wasnt me who asked you showing a video of the a8 doing something it cant.

 

but you claimed a8 can do turrican better than the c64 and it can do turrican in 16 bit quality.

 

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

 

 

The whole thread is spreaded over 50 pages just because some guy named Oswald is telling stuff that the A8 cannot do...

 

you claimed a8 can do turrican better than the c64 and it can do turrican in 16 bit quality.

 

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

[FastRobPlus]

22 - DEFENDER

 

Atari screenshots

 

This time C64 have the best colors in it, but the action and impressive explosions are on Atari version. On advanced levels you feel like the boss of the universe!, thanks for the 1.7Mhz speed.

 

In February 1980 Williams Electronics decided to hire Eugene Javis to create his first video game called DEFENDER. Jarvis was a fanatic of the violence and action, so he focused on chaos when he starting the design of his first video game. First, he think on a game similar to Space Invaders, after a few time he change the concept for an Asteroids clone. he wasn't happy with the size of screen:

 

"I came up with scrolling the screen, making the field larger than the actual screen. The DEFENDER world turned out to be three and one-half screens or seven screens or something. Having a universe that was larger than the screen, that was just a huge, huge breakthrough.

My original idea was to go one direction. I tended to want to go left to right. My friend told me that was bogus, that you needed to be able to go backward. Changing the program to make it backward was a pain in the ass, but he finally talked to me into it."

 

"Somewhere during that time, I just wanted to put all my stuff in a box and quit. I don't know why I didn't actually quit. Everyone was hassling me on spending so much time on these little astronauts guys.

Around this time, a really talented guy joined the team. His name was Sam Dicker. He was about 19 years old.

He did really incredible effects for the game. All of a sudden, we were blowing up things, we had some sound going, and it was starting to get fun."

 

- Eugene Jarvis -

 

At 1983, Steve Baker ported the arcade DEFENDER game for Atari 800 machines.

 

C64 screenshots

 

Defender is great game for me. I play it many times on real arcade. And - you belive me - Atari version is the best conversion of it. One thing: atari has two version: disk and cartridge. Cartdridge version has some graphics differences than disk version and look as the arcade version. Great port!!!

 

 

Hi Sikor!

Is there really a disk version? Did Atari produce it? Is it a crack? I ask because I have never seen it.

[aftermac]

...all of my C64 for games look like this:

 

? OUT OF MEMORY ERROR IN 0

 

READY

[FastRobPlus]

GTIA was the work of George McLeod. Color attributes would require changes to Antic and extra DMA cycles. The GTIA modes are simply re-interpretations of the data. It would be nice if some other options had been available, but apparently just adding those three put the chip behind schedule.

 

was he also working on the amiga?

 

 

A little off topic, but yes he help design the Denise chip. In the end, he realized to only way to improve on GTIA was to actually become one with the chip, so he stepped into the foundry and they melted him down with the silicon to make the Denise chip's substrate. When they ran out they had to cease production of the Amiga.

 

Do your homework, this stuff is all out there on the web! (or it is now)

[Allas]

I'm curious, how do you test Atari games:

 

I dont.

 

 

Oswald sorry, but you don't deserve to know the truth, because you don't want to find it.

Really, I can't imagine now, what kind of picture you have on mind over Atari, but for sure nothing near to the reality.

 

I guess you only stay here to waste the time of people and yours off course.

[emkay]

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

 

Blabla...

 

I never said the A8 can do a Turrican like 16 Bit. I said it can produce games with colours to look like 16Bit do.

One of this small facts is the correct lightsource projection which you don't even recognize ...

[Oswald]

I'm curious, how do you test Atari games:

 

I dont.

 

 

Oswald sorry, but you don't deserve to know the truth, because you don't want to find it.

Really, I can't imagine now, what kind of picture you have on mind over Atari, but for sure nothing near to the reality.

 

I guess you only stay here to waste the time of people and yours off course.

 

how many ppl here do test games on both machines? all of them who doesnt, should leave now? or only atari fans are allowed not to test? like this guy saying a8 port of this game is the best. did he try ALL ports ? I bet he didnt. now go and bash him too

[Cybergoth]

That's definitly puts you out of the ring... sorry... you are discussing without ever testing the games???

*sigh*

 

I watch them as video if possible. but I wouldnt call that testing like allas. and how many of here are playing these games on both systems ?

Ahhh... Of course... Just watching a video makes you an expert to all of us... Like I said before Oswald, STOP TROLLING. This is an open forum where anyone can speak, however, you are not making any friends here whatsoever with your biased views, and in turn, proving your ignorance, both technical and social...

 

Like almost everyone else you don't get something here. The games that are shown _are_ indeed better on the A8. None is denying that, probably not even Oswald. Why check them out, I'm sure I can fully trust Allas here.

 

The point is, that the C64 games that really matter simply don't exist on the A8. When thinking of C64 games I'm thinking of Maniac Mansion, Pirates!, Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, Last Ninja 2, IK+, Elite, Turrican II: The Final Fight, Wasteland, Bubble Bobble, Last Ninja, Project Firestart, Summer Games 2, Turrican, Defender of the Crown, Emlyn Hughes International Soccer, MicroProse Soccer, Winter Games, Great Giana Sisters, Creatures 2: Torture Trouble, Impossible Mission, World Games, Samurai Warrior: The Battles of Usagi Yojimbo, Armalyte, Mayhem in Monsterland, Airborne Ranger, Bard's Tale, The: Tales of the Unknown, California Games, Paradroid, Skate or Die!, Wizball, Creatures, Katakis, Rainbow Islands, Little Computer People, Midnight Resistance, MYTH: History in the Making, Grand Prix Circuit, Stunt Car Racer, Buggy Boy, Barbarian: The Ultimate Warrior, Power Drift, Ghosts 'n Goblins, Krakout, Lemmings, Salamander, Turbo Out Run, Platoon, Nebulus, Law of the West, Kikstart II, Cauldron II: The Pumpkin Strikes Back, Delta, Test Drive, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Impossible Mission 2, Last Ninja 3, R-Type, Batman, Barbarian II: The Dungeon of Drax, to name just a few...

 

So yeah, when reading here that games like "Blue Print" or "Elektra Glide" are better on the A8, I'm basically just reacting as in "WTF, never even heard of those ..."

[Jetboot Jack]

Moderator or not WTF has this got to do with the question asked by the OP?

 

I believe the question was - "Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?"

 

Not which games are good on the C64 and were never published on the A8...

 

Perhaps if history were to re-write itself these games would have been on the A8 and been great - I reckon quite a few of those are MUCH better on other systems of the same time tho' and in fact some of those are grim games (like Last Ninja III - what a let down that was, pretty as it look it plays poorly)...

 

sTeVE

Edited December 11, 2008 by Jetboot Jack

[Cybergoth]

Moderator or not WTF has this got to do with the question asked by the OP?

 

I didn't answer the original question, but the attacks against Oswald regarding him not playing those games.

 

Perhaps if history were to re-write itself these games would have been on the A8 and been great - I reckon quite a few of those are MUCH better on other systems of the same time tho'

 

Especially the Arcade versions I guess