Atari v Commodore

[Oswald]

Perhaps if history were to re-write itself these games would have been on the A8 and been great - I reckon quite a few of those are MUCH better on other systems of the same time tho' and in fact some of those are grim games (like Last Ninja III - what a let down that was, pretty as it look it plays poorly)...

 

ofcourse. and that makes a8 shine even brighter. there are games that doesnt exists for it, which are better on some other machine than on c64 oh and _ofcourse_ they would have been GREAT on the a8, only history should rewrite itslef !

[Jetboot Jack]

Sorry allow me to qualify that - Many of the games you mention are far better on other home systems available to buy from stores at the same time as the C64

 

Just because some people were stuck in an 8bit ghetto in 1985 doesn't mean the rest of us were not off enjoying the games far better on more powerful systems, and please I don't want to hear "price" brought into it, my 800 cost a fortune, more than my A1000 or STF in fact...

 

And Oswald - you really need to read what I write - I was not supporting the A8 would have been better at those games, I was saying those games did not exist period, and that whatever FANTASY some people here have that the A8 could have done them well, is irrelevant 'cos they didn't happen...

 

sTeVE

Edited December 11, 2008 by Jetboot Jack

[dwhyte]

The point is, that the C64 games that really matter simply don't exist on the A8. When thinking of C64 games I'm thinking of Maniac Mansion, Pirates!, Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, Last Ninja 2, IK+, Elite, Turrican II: The Final Fight, Wasteland, Bubble Bobble, Last Ninja, Project Firestart, Summer Games 2, Turrican, Defender of the Crown, Emlyn Hughes International Soccer, MicroProse Soccer, Winter Games, Great Giana Sisters, Creatures 2: Torture Trouble, Impossible Mission, World Games, Samurai Warrior: The Battles of Usagi Yojimbo, Armalyte, Mayhem in Monsterland, Airborne Ranger, Bard's Tale, The: Tales of the Unknown, California Games, Paradroid, Skate or Die!, Wizball, Creatures, Katakis, Rainbow Islands, Little Computer People, Midnight Resistance, MYTH: History in the Making, Grand Prix Circuit, Stunt Car Racer, Buggy Boy, Barbarian: The Ultimate Warrior, Power Drift, Ghosts 'n Goblins, Krakout, Lemmings, Salamander, Turbo Out Run, Platoon, Nebulus, Law of the West, Kikstart II, Cauldron II: The Pumpkin Strikes Back, Delta, Test Drive, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Impossible Mission 2, Last Ninja 3, R-Type, Batman, Barbarian II: The Dungeon of Drax, to name just a few...

 

Great list of games, most of which weren't even on the A8, not for lack of the machine's abilities, but because of the market... Now look at Post#1 on this thread and tell me the 64 does a better job...

 

So yeah, when reading here that games like "Blue Print" or "Elektra Glide" are better on the A8, I'm basically just reacting as in "WTF, never even heard of those ..."

 

Never even heard of them, eh? Another expert, I see...

 

 

I've played ALL versions of said games. On ALL platforms they were released on. Sure I prefer some to others, everyone does. But to say one system is better than the other is like saying one religion is better than the other... This thread contains way too many trolls, and a few troglodytes as well...

 

It's not like the 80s gentlemen where we or our parents only had enough money to buy one system... There's emulators these days, and the last time I checked, VICE and Atari800Win coexist nicely beside one another on the desktop... And on the real desk? My 128 and 130XE make a nice pair... Anyways, I'm sick of this thread... Everyone is acting like a child.. "My dad can beat up your dad..."

[Oswald]

Sorry allow me to qualify that - Many of the games you mention are far better on other home systems available to buy from stores at the same time as the C64

 

Just because some people were stuck in an 8bit ghetto in 1985 doesn't mean the rest of us were not off enjoying the games far better on more powerful systems, and please I don't want to hear "price" brought into it, my 800 cost a fortune, more than my A1000 or STF in fact...

 

sTeV

 

 

yeah but dont be so shy, next time compare c64 to crays, so you can show the a8 is better, and it hides also the fact a8 misses a LOT of games the c64 has.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Oswald

[Cybergoth]

Sorry allow me to qualify that - Many of the games you mention are far better on other home systems available to buy from stores at the same time as the C64

 

None of them is better on another 8-Bit machine though, unless maybe there's a PC-Engine version of one of the Arcade ports.

[FastRobPlus]

That's definitly puts you out of the ring... sorry... you are discussing without ever testing the games???

*sigh*

 

I watch them as video if possible. but I wouldnt call that testing like allas. and how many of here are playing these games on both systems ?

Ahhh... Of course... Just watching a video makes you an expert to all of us... Like I said before Oswald, STOP TROLLING. This is an open forum where anyone can speak, however, you are not making any friends here whatsoever with your biased views, and in turn, proving your ignorance, both technical and social...

 

Like almost everyone else you don't get something here. The games that are shown _are_ indeed better on the A8. None is denying that, probably not even Oswald. Why check them out, I'm sure I can fully trust Allas here.

 

The point is, that the C64 games that really matter simply don't exist on the A8. When thinking of C64 games I'm thinking of Maniac Mansion, Pirates!, Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, Last Ninja 2, IK+, Elite, Turrican II: The Final Fight, Wasteland, Bubble Bobble, Last Ninja, Project Firestart, Summer Games 2, Turrican, Defender of the Crown, Emlyn Hughes International Soccer, MicroProse Soccer, Winter Games, Great Giana Sisters, Creatures 2: Torture Trouble, Impossible Mission, World Games, Samurai Warrior: The Battles of Usagi Yojimbo, Armalyte, Mayhem in Monsterland, Airborne Ranger, Bard's Tale, The: Tales of the Unknown, California Games, Paradroid, Skate or Die!, Wizball, Creatures, Katakis, Rainbow Islands, Little Computer People, Midnight Resistance, MYTH: History in the Making, Grand Prix Circuit, Stunt Car Racer, Buggy Boy, Barbarian: The Ultimate Warrior, Power Drift, Ghosts 'n Goblins, Krakout, Lemmings, Salamander, Turbo Out Run, Platoon, Nebulus, Law of the West, Kikstart II, Cauldron II: The Pumpkin Strikes Back, Delta, Test Drive, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Impossible Mission 2, Last Ninja 3, R-Type, Batman, Barbarian II: The Dungeon of Drax, to name just a few...

 

So yeah, when reading here that games like "Blue Print" or "Elektra Glide" are better on the A8, I'm basically just reacting as in "WTF, never even heard of those ..."

 

A great deal of those are not Commodore games. Many were Apple II, PC and Amiga first. In a way, the C64 reminds me of the Playstation 2: It was the best selling console of the prior console generation and sold so many that it still makes a lot of sense to make the bigger games available for it, even if it isn't in the same league as the 360, PS3, or Wii. So you could say that the "games that really matter" like Guitar Hero World Tour or Tomb Raider Underworld, etc. never even came out for the Gamecube, but that would be ignoring the reality that most users have moved on to the next generation consoles (meaning the game is probably bigger/better on another platform) and they are really just doing ports that leverage the fact that the installed base is still great enough that you can throw big name games out there and still get some decent sales on the PS2.

I would say that if you want to compare C64 Lemmings or Defender of the Crown or Turrican II or whatever you would want to compare it to the originating platform.

[Oswald]

Sorry allow me to qualify that - Many of the games you mention are far better on other home systems available to buy from stores at the same time as the C64

 

None of them is better on another 8-Bit machine though, unless maybe there's a PC-Engine version of one of the Arcade ports.

 

nah, elite for example, revs, and whatnot, there's a handful of games. but the c64 here is competing an army of 8 bits, so a handful of games vs 30-40 better on the c64 is not bad

[Jetboot Jack]

Why does 8-bit-ness matter??

 

If the contention is hey look at all these great games the A8 didn't get, that PROVES the C64 is better - which gentlemen is exactly the way your posts sound - then I say wake up, the A8 died in 1983, the C64 was run over in 1985 - the fact is for a few dollars or pounds I could buy many of the games you cite on my Amiga or ST that were BETTER than the C64 versions.

 

Fact is that proves nothing, but is as relevant as the list is to the topic...

 

I might lament the death of the A8, but I am glad it did die, so I could enjoy my Amiga and ST - the last of the home computers...

 

sTeVE

Edited December 11, 2008 by Jetboot Jack

[tebe]

Oswald is sick man - Trollus Internauticus

[emkay]

I really have a bad feeling here. Some Troll is moaning 24/7 , turns his truth into "our" truth, insults people talks nonsense without knowing a bit about the A8... and the moderator itself is a C64 user , who is allowing Oswald all this nonense because of that.

 

I have no doubts that the C64 has it's strengths. But I also know about the strenghts of the A8. To say the A8 is the worse machine, or cannot do stuff, by simply arguing "hey it is not done, so it cannot do it" , just because many games left to jump onboard the A8.... this is odd.

 

Before Sheddy showed us the Space Harrier port, he is doing, everyone said "the A8 cannot do it" . And now it shows that the A8 can do it better than most other 8bit systems. The A8 resembles the correct ( and complex) gameplay of the original Arcade which is using several CPUs and special custom chips.

 

Come on C64 freaks, start thinking before writing.

[Oswald]

Why does 8-bit-ness matter??

 

If the contention is hey look at all these great games the A8 didn't get, that PROVES the C64 is better - which gentlemen is exactly the way your posts sound - then I say wake up, the A8 died in 1983, the C64 was run over in 1985 - the fact is for a few dollars or pounds I could buy many of the games you cite on my Amiga or ST that were BETTER than the C64 versions.

 

Fact is that proves nothing, but is as relevant as the list is to the topic...

 

I might lament the death of the A8, but I am glad it did die, so I could enjoy my Amiga and ST - the last of the home computers...

 

sTeVE

 

well in a way he is right.

 

c64 gaming was roughly about the list he brought up.

 

and the games allas brings up for comparison are old dinosaurs for most of the 64ers. We have played with other games in the days.

[emkay]

and the games allas brings up for comparison are old dinosaurs for most of the 64ers. We have played with other games in the days.

 

And we played this games on better systems these days.

[Heaven/TQA]

aehm... maybe I am one of the fews who are looking and testing the games on my c64 II and vice plus on my 130xe... hmmm....

 

[Cybergoth]

I would say that if you want to compare C64 Lemmings or Defender of the Crown or Turrican II or whatever you would want to compare it to the originating platform.

 

Just for the record:

Turrican II was developed on both C64 and Amiga, so they're both originals.

Defender of the Crown beats the Miggy version easily.

Lemmings is an Amiga original indeed.

 

And for allowing comparing "only" games that exist on both C64 and A8, you actually think it's fair to compare games from the end of the commercial lifetime of one system with the games from the beginning of the commercial lifetime of another system? Big surprise, A8 wins everywhere.

 

What with the few A8 games that still came out in the C64s heyday, maybe we should compare Gauntlet for example?

[Jetboot Jack]

I appreciate that if I were a C64 user in 1987 then those game would have been awesome - Maniac Mansion is a kick ass game.

 

However I played it on my Amiga - no comparison...

 

So my memories of those games is not of the C64 versions - and the technical excellence or not of those versions C64 is irrelevant to me as I had subjectively better versions (in my eyes).

 

And this is why all this arguing is rubbish - there is is no better, no provable technical prowess or any other comparison that matters - it's all from the user's perspective - it's all relative...

 

You can claim all you like that Maniac Mansion is good on the C64, but to me it does not appear so...

 

Likewise the fact that Ballbalzer and Rescue on Fractalus blew my mind and I see no other versions even remotely comparable does not make you think the same way...

 

sTeVE

[ApolloBoy]

It's not like the 80s gentlemen where we or our parents only had enough money to buy one system... There's emulators these days, and the last time I checked, VICE and Atari800Win coexist nicely beside one another on the desktop... And on the real desk? My 128 and 130XE make a nice pair... Anyways, I'm sick of this thread... Everyone is acting like a child.. "My dad can beat up your dad..."

 

Indeed. I really enjoy my A8s and my C64, and as someone who grew up without experiencing either system, I can enjoy one without resorting to trashing the other. This discussion may have made sense in 1982, but it's 2008 now and there's just no reason, and I mean absolutely no reason, to beat up on either system now that they're widely available (in both real life and through emulation). My C64 is sitting right next to my 800 now, and that's how it'll be.

 

I'm with you dwhyte, I'm done with this thread.

[Cybergoth]

and the moderator itself is a C64 user , who is allowing Oswald all this nonense because of that.

 

You're on very thin ice actually and just as deep in "system-war-mode" as Oswald.

 

And before you try sorting me into one or the other side of that childish behaviour you've fallen into, please recognize that I didn't suspend you or tebe for name calling either, just as you are implicit requesting for Oswald.

[Oswald]

Likewise the fact that Ballbalzer and Rescue on Fractalus blew my mind and I see no other versions even remotely comparable does not make you think the same way...

 

these games are all faster on the a8 (comparing to c64 now) we think the same way here, but that doesn means they are not even remotely comparable to the c64 or other counterparts. you are overexaggerating here.

[emkay]

Defender of the Crown beats the Miggy version easily.

 

 

 

 

NEVER!

[+CharlieChaplin]

I'm yet to see a game (as INGAME gfx)/application using those modes. demos benefit them a lot tho.

 

 

Well,

Anco - Kick Off (a lousy game but with a 256 color background; gr. 9+11)

Anco - Winter Events (also 256 color background, gr. 9+11)

 

-Andreas Koch.

Edited December 11, 2008 by CharlieChaplin

[Bryan]

GTIA was the work of George McLeod. Color attributes would require changes to Antic and extra DMA cycles. The GTIA modes are simply re-interpretations of the data. It would be nice if some other options had been available, but apparently just adding those three put the chip behind schedule.

 

was he also working on the amiga?

 

so gtia is kindof a shift register+color lookup circuitry fed by the antic?

 

what three ? 320x 160x 80x ?

 

behind what schedule ?

 

Here's the known list of A8 hardware designers:

 

Jay Miner - Creator and System architect, VSLI manager

Steve Mayer - Also one of the creators

Lawrence D. Emmons - Also one of the creators

Joe Decuir - ANTIC and system and creator

George McLeod - CTIA and GTIA logic design

Doug Neubauer - POKEY logic design

Mark Shieu - POKEY chip design

Steve Stone - POKEY layout design

Steve Smith - Technician for ANTIC and GTIA

Delwin Pearson - Technician for POKEY

 

Antic is a DMA engine. It halts the CPU, fetches data (including the handling of character modes) and serially* feeds the GTIA. Antic has line buffers and does not need to re-read lines that have a lower vertical resolution. Antic also handles RAM refresh. GTIA takes screen data and handles television interfacing (chroma, luma and sync generation). Plus GTIA overlays the Player-Missile (sprite) graphics which Antic DMA's during the Hblank.

 

So, Antic is the half that deals with the bus, and GTIA is the half that deals with the TV.

 

The three GTIA modes I spoke of are the 16-shade mode, the 16-color mode, and the 9 color registered mode. All these modes are 80-wide resolution (but can overscan). Choosing one of the modes overrides the mode selected in the display list.

 

The CTIA chip was shipped with the first models sold in 1979 because the wasn't finished. By 1980, machines were shipping with GTIA's. The main difference is the inclusion of the 3 GTIA modes. Most machines were upgraded and very few CTIA's exist today.

 

-Bry

 

 

*edit: It's 3-bit wide data, but it's sent in display order. It translates screen data into a 3-bit stream that tells GTIA to "display background color" or "display playfield color 1." The 3 GTIA modes ignore the intent of data being sent and instead organize it into 4-bit chunks and applies coloring specific to that mode.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Bryan

[emkay]

and the moderator itself is a C64 user , who is allowing Oswald all this nonense because of that.

 

You're on very thin ice actually and just as deep in "system-war-mode" as Oswald.

 

And before you try sorting me into one or the other side of that childish behaviour you've fallen into, please recognize that I didn't suspend you or tebe for name calling either, just as you are implicit requesting for Oswald.

 

Actually, before suspending anyone, Oswald has earned this multiple times before. Such provocations he has done before are cause enough... So if you had suspended him at the first negative point, there was no "name calling" from us either necessary and never happended.

But after beeing named and adressed badly by him several times without any moderating. What should we think?

Particular when you prefer to suspend people who still doing something for the Atari , instead of suspending the real forum troll...

Edited December 11, 2008 by emkay

[Cybergoth]

But after beeing named and adressed badly by him several times without any moderating. What should we think?

 

That none of the moderators are voluntarily reading the 1001st C64 vs. A8 thread, until some participants run out of arguments and others start hitting the "report" button in response? You think it's fun to babysit those threads?

[Oswald]

Here's the known list of A8 hardware designers:

 

 

Thanks, interesting stuff. is there any info on why they sliced the gfx chip into two ?

[Bryan]

Here's the known list of A8 hardware designers:

 

 

Thanks, interesting stuff. is there any info on why they sliced the gfx chip into two ?

If I had to guess:

 

Probably it had to do with the economical size for a VLSI at the time. A larger chip meant lower yield.

 

It's also possible that the 40-pin package would not have accommodated all the I/O for both chips. GTIA's video comes out on 6 pins (4 lum, 1 chroma, 1 sync), and GTIA also has 4 general purpose IO's used for the function keys and the 400/800's internal speaker.

 

Simply upgrading the GTIA in the XL models could have given the A8 some new features and graphics modes without touching Antic or software compatibility. For instance, an upgraded GTIA could have combined the 2-bit pixels from 2 160-mode lines, giving a 160x100x16 color mode. Atari's engineering department started to fall apart around 1980-81, though.

 

-Bry

Edited December 11, 2008 by Bryan