Atari v Commodore

[Sikor]

Hi Sikor!

Is there really a disk version? Did Atari produce it? Is it a crack? I ask because I have never seen it.

I think - it is. I have in my disk version different than cartdridge version, some graphics isn't same. I don't now, that it's official release, but I think - yes. Unfortunately - i haven't original (cartridge version I have ) - it was bought years ago, in piracy era in Poland...

But - please, send me this question via PM nest week (I'm out of home this time) - I try find more info.

[FastRobPlus]

I would say that if you want to compare C64 Lemmings or Defender of the Crown or Turrican II or whatever you would want to compare it to the originating platform.

 

Just for the record:

Turrican II was developed on both C64 and Amiga, so they're both originals.

Defender of the Crown beats the Miggy version easily.

Lemmings is an Amiga original indeed.

 

 

 

DoC was an Amiga game first (though I think James did the graphics for both the Amiga and 64 versions by hand) not sure about the Miggy version or any other euro-computer as we didn't have them in North America. I am sure the Amiga was first and best among Amiga, ST, PC, 64, graphing calculators, etc. (though lacking in some of the later features.)

 

And for allowing comparing "only" games that exist on both C64 and A8, you actually think it's fair to compare games from the end of the commercial lifetime of one system with the games from the beginning of the commercial lifetime of another system? Big surprise, A8 wins everywhere.

 

What with the few A8 games that still came out in the C64s heyday, maybe we should compare Gauntlet for example?

 

I think we agree here, but we were asked to stay on topic which is why I argured my point in the way I did.

[Bryan]

Interesting Jay Miner quote:

 

"Tramiel was livid when he found out he couldn't get his hands on the chips, as the whole idea of financing us was just to get the chips, not the people designing them, unlike Commodore who needed to keep the team intact. The Atari 400 and 800 series were great computers in their day, but you know things move on. When he didn't get the chipset his only alternative was to design a new computer without the custom chips so he came up with the ST. This wasn't a bad little computer but lacked the power of the Amiga's chipset."

[emkay]

Interesting Jay Miner quote:

 

"Tramiel was livid when he found out he couldn't get his hands on the chips, as the whole idea of financing us was just to get the chips, not the people designing them, unlike Commodore who needed to keep the team intact. The Atari 400 and 800 series were great computers in their day, but you know things move on. When he didn't get the chipset his only alternative was to design a new computer without the custom chips so he came up with the ST. This wasn't a bad little computer but lacked the power of the Amiga's chipset."

 

 

Good old Chameels I Commy times they said that the C64 has the best sound around. After creating the Atari 65XE the commercials said that this one has the best sound of all 8bits, which has a soundchip that was 5 years older than the whole C64

[Bryan]

I Commy times they said that the C64 has the best sound around. After creating the Atari 65XE the commercials said that this one has the best sound of all 8bits, which has a soundchip that was 5 years older than the whole C64

 

It's rare for a computer to be brought to market by people who actually care about their product and their customers. Atari really lost it's core personality when Nolan left. Apple was unique in that it was a successful computer company run by engineers and enthusiasts. Jack didn't care about what he was selling; he just wanted to 'do business.' I doubt he ever actually spent much time using a Vic-20, 64, XE or an ST.

[emkay]

I would say that if you want to compare C64 Lemmings or Defender of the Crown or Turrican II or whatever you would want to compare it to the originating platform.

 

Just for the record:

Turrican II was developed on both C64 and Amiga, so they're both originals.

Defender of the Crown beats the Miggy version easily.

Lemmings is an Amiga original indeed.

 

 

 

DoC was an Amiga game first (though I think James did the graphics for both the Amiga and 64 versions by hand) not sure about the Miggy version or any other euro-computer as we didn't have them in North America. I am sure the Amiga was first and best among Amiga, ST, PC, 64, graphing calculators, etc. (though lacking in some of the later features.)quote]

 

I think we agree here, but we were asked to stay on topic which is why I argured my point in the way I did.

 

 

 

I still have a problem with the statement that DotC is any better on the C64.

 

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/defend...own/screenshots

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/defender...own/screenshots

 

 

 

Not to mention about the jousting, where you even don't get what the game actually wants in the C64 version...

[Jetboot Jack]

Miggy=Amiga

[atarian63]

You have the color RAM to allow you to pick colors in 8*8 cells whereas Atari has up to 4X zoomed sprites with conflicting priority on playfield, ORed colors by sprite overlap, DLIs, and IRQs to set the colors.

 

c64 can use sprites and interrupts aswell to enhance pictures. the atari has here less features.

 

Atari is setting luminance at 1/320 resolution but C64 is setting the color, but I have yet to see this color changing work consistently statically or with scrolling.

 

many ten million humans have already seen it working both statically or scrolling. havent you seen a c64 scrolling game so far?

 

 

 

 

And last but not least, 320*200 is one mode, Atari has other modes which C64 does not have like all the GTIA modes and their combinations which involve 16 colors/shades.

 

I'm yet to see a game (as INGAME gfx)/application using those modes. demos benefit them a lot tho.

Actually most of those machine are in the scrapyard by now, I see them all the time.

[Artlover]

So now we're comparing C64 to Amiga?

 

(Waits for the Altair 8800 vs. P4 discussion.......)

[Oswald]

Not to mention about the jousting, where you even don't get what the game actually wants in the C64 version...

 

huh?

[Oswald]

Actually most of those machine are in the scrapyard by now, I see them all the time.

 

c64 or atari ? you must be spending a lot of time in scrapyards.

[atarian63]

sure, you can ask me showing a c64 demo which does what the c64 can not (48 colors) . I could similarly ask you showing me an a8 demo moving 120 sprites at 50fps. none of them makes sense.

 

 

Hm.... so why, at all, do you still post this nonsenses?

 

what do you mean? it wasnt me who asked you showing a video of the a8 doing something it cant.

 

but you claimed a8 can do turrican better than the c64 and it can do turrican in 16 bit quality.

 

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

 

 

The whole thread is spreaded over 50 pages just because some guy named Oswald is telling stuff that the A8 cannot do...

 

you claimed a8 can do turrican better than the c64 and it can do turrican in 16 bit quality.

 

then you refused to proove these. so, who is posting nonsense dear emkay?

Sorry, not 16bit quality, try the Amiga version, not even close.

[Oswald]

So now we're comparing C64 to Amiga?

 

looks like the a8 HW is not strong enough for the fight, so some of the guys started comparing c64 to amiga

[atarian63]

I'm curious, how do you test Atari games:

 

I dont.

 

 

Oswald sorry, but you don't deserve to know the truth, because you don't want to find it.

Really, I can't imagine now, what kind of picture you have on mind over Atari, but for sure nothing near to the reality.

 

I guess you only stay here to waste the time of people and yours off course.

 

how many ppl here do test games on both machines? all of them who doesnt, should leave now? or only atari fans are allowed not to test? like this guy saying a8 port of this game is the best. did he try ALL ports ? I bet he didnt. now go and bash him too

now. now.. no whining

[emkay]

So now we're comparing C64 to Amiga?

 

(Waits for the Altair 8800 vs. P4 discussion.......)

 

Comparing C64 and AMIGA would fit better because they are closer together in the time of the 1st release and further livespan.

Comparing the Altair with a P4 would mean a further step of comparing the A8 and the C64 then.

[atarian63]

So now we're comparing C64 to Amiga?

 

(Waits for the Altair 8800 vs. P4 discussion.......)

Thats what oswald means about Turrican on C64 being 16bit graphics...

[atarian63]

I Commy times they said that the C64 has the best sound around. After creating the Atari 65XE the commercials said that this one has the best sound of all 8bits, which has a soundchip that was 5 years older than the whole C64

 

It's rare for a computer to be brought to market by people who actually care about their product and their customers. Atari really lost it's core personality when Nolan left. Apple was unique in that it was a successful computer company run by engineers and enthusiasts. Jack didn't care about what he was selling; he just wanted to 'do business.' I doubt he ever actually spent much time using a Vic-20, 64, XE or an ST.

I always thought Apple was successful purely by luck, they chose to sell a way overpriced low performance machine to Schools and actually got them to buy them. How they marketed and the terms they gave them,plus the reeducation of the students and faculties were the actual keys to Apples success.Inother words.. right place,right time. How else could you sell such and overpriced inferior product. Even Atari turned them down, as they has a bteer machine in the pipe. ( though Al Alcorn helped Jobs get financing) dumb move.

[atarian63]

So now we're comparing C64 to Amiga?

 

looks like the a8 HW is not strong enough for the fight, so some of the guys started comparing c64 to amiga

Still whining.....

[Bryan]

I always thought Apple was successful purely by luck, they chose to sell a way overpriced low performance machine to Schools and actually got them to buy them. How they marketed and the terms they gave them,plus the reeducation of the students and faculties were the actual keys to Apples success.Inother words.. right place,right time. How else could you sell such and overpriced inferior product. Even Atari turned them down, as they has a bteer machine in the pipe. ( though Al Alcorn helped Jobs get financing) dumb move.

The difference was that they were truly fanatical about their product. I don't think Atari was planning to release a personal computer at all until after they saw the success Apple was having.

[Oswald]

So now we're comparing C64 to Amiga?

 

(Waits for the Altair 8800 vs. P4 discussion.......)

Thats what oswald means about Turrican on C64 being 16bit graphics...

 

sorry you're mixing me up with emkay. I've never said the c64 can do 16bit gfx. or feel free to prove me wrong with a quote and url to the post.

[Oswald]

I always thought Apple was successful purely by luck, they chose to sell a way overpriced low performance machine to Schools and actually got them to buy them. How they marketed and the terms they gave them,plus the reeducation of the students and faculties were the actual keys to Apples success.Inother words.. right place,right time. How else could you sell such and overpriced inferior product. Even Atari turned them down, as they has a bteer machine in the pipe. ( though Al Alcorn helped Jobs get financing) dumb move.

The difference was that they were truly fanatical about their product. I don't think Atari was planning to release a personal computer at all until after they saw the success Apple was having.

 

imho the difference was that apple could be expanded and many 3rd party stuff was available. the key was visicalc, and add the backward compatibility aswell.

[Cybergoth]

I still have a problem with the statement that DotC is any better on the C64.

 

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/defend...own/screenshots

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/defender...own/screenshots

 

You can't see it on screenshots, but it is more fun to play

[aftermac]

I always thought Apple was successful purely by luck, they chose to sell a way overpriced low performance machine to Schools and actually got them to buy them. How they marketed and the terms they gave them,plus the reeducation of the students and faculties were the actual keys to Apples success.Inother words.. right place,right time. How else could you sell such and overpriced inferior product. Even Atari turned them down, as they has a bteer machine in the pipe. ( though Al Alcorn helped Jobs get financing) dumb move.

The difference was that they were truly fanatical about their product. I don't think Atari was planning to release a personal computer at all until after they saw the success Apple was having.

 

imho the difference was that apple could be expanded and many 3rd party stuff was available. the key was visicalc, and add the backward compatibility aswell.

 

You're exactly right about that... it's been well documented that the personal computer was not taken seriously, nor did the Apple II sell very well, until Visicalc was released. That's why it's called a "killer app". Apple was the first system to get a killer app. The expandability also gave it the ability to be a more powerful machine.

 

IBM was the second PC to get a "killer app". Lotus 123...

[Allas]

I still have a problem with the statement that DotC is any better on the C64.

 

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/defend...own/screenshots

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/defender...own/screenshots

 

You can't see it on screenshots, but it is more fun to play

 

What fun could be when you have to wait minutes between everything happens.

[Oswald]

I still have a problem with the statement that DotC is any better on the C64.

 

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/defend...own/screenshots

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/defender...own/screenshots

 

You can't see it on screenshots, but it is more fun to play

 

What fun could be when you have to wait minutes between everything happens.

 

a lot. I remember someone telling me that a game exists where you can fight battles, take castles with catapults, recruit army, go jousting, etc. I didnt believe him that such a game exists. then I got dotc