Atari 5200 vs. CelecoVision

[VectorGamer]

"Classic 80's Home Video Games" by Wicker & Brassard on page 200:

 

Regarding the 5200 controllers "players had grown accustomed to the self-centering joystick and counted on that function as you would a reflex. Atari's own designers hated the joystick and actually petitioned against it to no avail."

 

Same book, page 229:

 

regarding the 7800 and it's new joysticks "eight position self-centering stick" and "Apparently, Atari had learned its lesson with the 5200 joystick debacle" returning to a "simpler design."

 

So, question is - who actually designed the 5200 joysticks?

[Ransom]

So, question is - who actually designed the 5200 joysticks?

 

I think it was some guy named Arnold Greenberg. He left Atari shortly after, and as far as I know was never heard from again.

[VectorGamer]

So, question is - who actually designed the 5200 joysticks?

 

I think it was some guy named Arnold Greenberg. He left Atari shortly after, and as far as I know was never heard from again.

 

I figured Atari outsourced the design to a so-called team of experts, the Atari designers hated it and management did not want to cut their losses to redesign the controllers.

[else]

I figured Atari outsourced the design to a so-called team of experts, the Atari designers hated it and management did not want to cut their losses to redesign the controllers.

 

It's a joke. Arnold Greenberg was the CEO of Coleco....

Edited April 13, 2009 by else

[VectorGamer]

I figured Atari outsourced the design to a so-called team of experts, the Atari designers hated it and management did not want to cut their losses to redesign the controllers.

 

It's a joke. Arnold Greenberg was the CEO of Coleco....

 

I sent an email to one of the authors of the book I quoted (actually his store's Web site - so I don't know if the guy even reads the stuff) asking who was responsible for the design of the controllers.

 

If I get a response I'll forward it on.

[VectorGamer]

I figured Atari outsourced the design to a so-called team of experts, the Atari designers hated it and management did not want to cut their losses to redesign the controllers.

 

It's a joke. Arnold Greenberg was the CEO of Coleco....

 

I sent an email to one of the authors of the book I quoted (actually his store's Web site - so I don't know if the guy even reads the stuff) asking who was responsible for the design of the controllers.

 

If I get a response I'll forward it on.

 

I got a read receipt for the email I sent, but no reply after a few hours.

[oky2000]

What's so interesting to me though is that other than Donkey Kong and Zaxxon, the CV didn't have ports of any popular arcade games. Atari had tons of popular arcade games. Yet the CV became the hot system to own. There's a business/marketing lesson in there somewhere I think.

 

On a personal level, though, I'd loved both Venture and Lady Bug at the arcade, so I was just blown away when I saw that I could play them at home with the CV. That was when it became a "must have" for me. I was terrible at DK and didn't waste quarters on it (I'm still terrible at jumping games to this day), and Zaxxon never interested me. So having those less popular but still strong games was what brought me to the CV. I wonder how many other kids felt the same way at the time?

 

Gorf, Gyrus, Time Pilot, Defender, Galaxians there were quite a few, some even by Atarisoft themselves. Some were quite good, they are very different machines though. There is a really good unbiased review of 5 pages long comparing the machines and their games directly with screenshots out there still I think.

 

I liked both systems, I don't have a 5200 as I am not in the habit of buying ultra expensive NTSC only consoles and paying $100s in shipping, but let's face it the 5200 is an Atari 8bit so I have those and that's me sorted anyway so not too much need

 

(PS the Coleco weighs next to nothing but its power supply could be used as a deadly weapon if there are no rocks conveniently to hand haha)

[CV Gus]

Well, one thing working against the 5200 and for the CV was that while Venture and Ladybug were not exactly blockbusters in the arcades, they were new on the home scene, and those translations were amazingly good. In 1982, we were still used to 2600 translations, and could not believe our eyes when we saw those ColecoVision games!

 

The 5200, on the other hand, had crummy controllers, and games that had been seen before. I mean, Super Breakout as a pack-in game? If you liked that game, you had the 2600 version, and with the paddle controllers, it was actually better. Had the 5200 been built with digital controllers and had games like Pengo, Blueprint, Robotron: 2084, and others like that from the start, then it would likely have done better during those crucial few months.

 

Also- the 5200 Pac-man was better than the 2600- but what wasn't? Cosmic Cruncher for the Vic-20 and the O2's K.C. Munchkin were much better.

Edited April 13, 2009 by CV Gus

[jetset]

Well, one thing working against the 5200 and for the CV was that while Venture and Ladybug were not exactly blockbusters in the arcades, they were new on the home scene, and those translations were amazingly good. In 1982, we were still used to 2600 translations, and could not believe our eyes when we saw those ColecoVision games!

 

The 5200, on the other hand, had crummy controllers, and games that had been seen before. I mean, Super Breakout as a pack-in game? If you liked that game, you had the 2600 version, and with the paddle controllers, it was actually better. Had the 5200 been built with digital controllers and had games like Pengo, Blueprint, Robotron: 2084, and others like that from the start, then it would likely have done better during those crucial few months.

 

Also- the 5200 Pac-man was better than the 2600- but what wasn't? Cosmic Cruncher for the Vic-20 and the O2's K.C. Munchkin were much better.

 

 

Not everyone thought that way though. In fact, seeing the CV porting 2nd rate knockoffs of good games instead of the real ones was a turnoff for some. Why play a clone of PacMan like Ladybug or Mousetrap when you could play the real thing? Slither? Ick. What are you shooting at in that game anyway? Sperm? I'll take Centipede any day.

Don't get me wrong I love the CV too, but the main appeal of the 5200 was being able to play the top arcade games at home. Having updated versions of games like Missile Command, Ms PacMan, Moon Patrol, Dig Dug, etc... was the appeal for me (just as much as Donkey Kong, Turbo, etc...were the appeal for CV buyers)

And really, the CV has as crummy if not worse controllers so that argument is moot. The 5200 took some getting used to if you played games where centering was important, but with the CV after 10 minutes your hands got so cramped you couldn't move them from trying to move that bitty stub of a joystick. Fire buttons? They both sucked. The 5200 engineers at least thought about 2-button games, even though they were crap workmanship and broke down after a few months. But just try playing Defender or Cosmic Avenger (speaking of 2nd rate knockoffs there) with the CV controllers. WTF were they thinking putting the 2nd fire button on the *opposite* side? You pretty much almost had to reach over with your other hand to push the smart bomb or the missile. Not smart.

Nope sorry. Neither controller was better than the other.

 

I do agree though the 5200's pack in was especially lame. Had they included PacMan, or Defender as the pack in the Coleco probably would never have even gotten off the ground. I think Atari was counting on people buying the system FOR the system not the pack in game whereas Coleco used their best game TO sell the system. Totally smart move. Atari definitely f'd up there!

[+wood_jl]

I think what's suprising for both of these systems - is that nobody's developed a **REAL** workable solution to the controllers. I suppose one would have to conclude that the interest (and hence the market) isn't there to do so. They're probably correct.

 

How about a little interface box that plugged into a 5200 port and accepted a Playstation controller to do your analog bidding and a maybe another port to plug in a 2600 keypad (ala Star Raiders pad) to enter the numbers, etc? Failing that, how about an actual, Cheap Chinese underage communist sweatshop replacement that does the job using modern day (or slightly substandard, melamine-contaminated) components?

 

I suppose the dollars aren't there because the market isn't there because the 5200 just wasn't that popular. Would like to see an actual effective, reliable, affordable remedy that likely won't materialize.

 

 

On the Colecovision front, how about a deal that would convert Jaguar controllers? Yeah, big and a lot of plastic, but still reasonably comfortable and with a keypad! It's been so long, I can't remember if the CV controllers are hard-wired.

 

I don't know what the console makers were thinking - or why they were not - back then. The Colecovision and Atari 5200 have the WORST fire button placement/comfort I've ever seen. If they purposely tried to evade ergonomics with those, they couldn't have done it better. Reminds me of when the people who place manhole covers in the street can't seem to put them where the car wheels WONT hit them. It's like they're being paid a bonus to make sure and put it in the wheel-traffic rut.

[Ransom]

I think what's suprising for both of these systems - is that nobody's developed a **REAL** workable solution to the controllers. I suppose one would have to conclude that the interest (and hence the market) isn't there to do so. They're probably correct.

 

How about a little interface box that plugged into a 5200 port and accepted a Playstation controller to do your analog bidding and a maybe another port to plug in a 2600 keypad (ala Star Raiders pad) to enter the numbers, etc? Failing that, how about an actual, Cheap Chinese underage communist sweatshop replacement that does the job using modern day (or slightly substandard, melamine-contaminated) components?

 

I suppose the dollars aren't there because the market isn't there because the 5200 just wasn't that popular. Would like to see an actual effective, reliable, affordable remedy that likely won't materialize.

 

I've found the Best Electronics gold joysticks to be a real, workable solution to the problem posed by the original controllers. The only thing missing is self-centering, and that only matters (IMHO) in a very few games.

 

 

On the Colecovision front, how about a deal that would convert Jaguar controllers? Yeah, big and a lot of plastic, but still reasonably comfortable and with a keypad! It's been so long, I can't remember if the CV controllers are hard-wired.

 

I don't know what the console makers were thinking - or why they were not - back then. The Colecovision and Atari 5200 have the WORST fire button placement/comfort I've ever seen. If they purposely tried to evade ergonomics with those, they couldn't have done it better. Reminds me of when the people who place manhole covers in the street can't seem to put them where the car wheels WONT hit them. It's like they're being paid a bonus to make sure and put it in the wheel-traffic rut.

 

Agreed, an adapter for the Jag controller to work on the CV would be great. But it'd be quite a piece of work, I think. And you're talking about making the controller from one unpopular system work with a slightly less unpopular (at this stage) system. Probably not a big winner, but who knows? Maybe Jag users tend to be big CV fans, and vice versa.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Ransom

[Goochman]

Dont know about the rest of you, but just about everyone I knew crapped their pants when the pictures of Donkey Kong on the CV showed up in magazines. It looked like nothing we'd seen on the 2600 or Intellivision. Controllers didnt matter, everyone wanted to play *that* version of DK.

 

I got an 800 so I was alot happier than any CV or 5200 owner

[VectorGamer]

Dont know about the rest of you, but just about everyone I knew crapped their pants when the pictures of Donkey Kong on the CV showed up in magazines. It looked like nothing we'd seen on the 2600 or Intellivision. Controllers didnt matter, everyone wanted to play *that* version of DK.

 

I got an 800 so I was alot happier than any CV or 5200 owner

 

This is absolutely true about "crapping their pants."

 

First of all, when Intellivision came out, I was not in awe regardless of what George Plimpton said and will never own an Intellivision because of their trash talking ad campaign. A kid had an Intellivision down the street and I certainly was not doing back flips about it.

 

Atari made a lot of mistakes with the 5200. From being late to market, to the Super Breakout pack-in cart, to the switchbox and lastly the bane of this system being the controllers.

[CV Gus]

Point was, the 5200 games mostly had a "been there, done that" feel. Worse still, overall, Super Breakout and Space Invaders were BETTER on the 2600!

The CV games- with the obvious exceptions of Donkey Kong and Zaxxon- may have been lesser-known arcade games (Ladybug, Cosmic Avenger, etc.), but they proved very popular in the home format. Also, the promise of games like Wizard of Wor and Tunnels and Trolls helped sales. D&D was IMMENSELY popular at that point. Also, they looked better than the 5200 counterparts: compare Ladybug to Pac-Man, or Cosmic Avenger to Vanguard. The CV had a much better start than the 5200, and that all-important lead of a few months back in 1982 was crucial. What didn't help Atari was that they had to divide their efforts between the 5200 and 2600, not to mention their computers and arcade games. Even at its height, that was spreading it a bit thin.

 

I'm sorry, but the CV control scheme was in fact far better than the 5200's. Almost all games needed self-centering controllers; at least the CV passed that test.

What you are also overlooking is the fact that the CV used a standard 9-pin set up for controllers. Didn't like the CV controllers? No problem- you could plug in any number of 9-pin controllers for the 2600, the Commodore computers, etc. Since you could use the keypad on the second controller to start and select games, even that was no problem, and since most games needed only one fire button, you were mostly covered.

This was NOT the case with the 5200. Sure, I've designed two different modules to allow 9-pin controllers to be used for the 5200, but how much of that was around back in those days? The CV did not require such a hassle.

[bohoki]

the 5200 controllers werent that bad the main gripe is the carbon dot buttons that barely last a month

 

having 2 fire buttons is great but everybody always wants one more button

 

the way frogger frogger 2 and qbert were configured was lame press direction and button to move eeek thats just wrong

 

i always had the feeling that colecovision was superior but was mainly a 2600 user because of the magnitude of games

 

same with the sega genesis i felt the snes was superior but had to stick with the genesis cause i was in for a penny

 

man my controller i made is great i wish i had the skill and components 20 years ago i woudl have had more enjoyment with my 5200

it was in the garage for a long time till about a year ago i dig it out and thought i cazn make this s#!+ work after 3 attempts at a home made controller i got one that works decent

 

a few game purchases on ebay enhanced my collection so i have a little more value out of the wedge of doom

[Ransom]

I agree somewhat with CV Gus, as well as bohoki.

 

The problems with the 5200 at the time were that at release, it had a tired library (other than Star Raiders -- for most 2600 gamers, the 5200 version was a revelation) and Electronic Games magazine, et al didn't like the controllers, so a lot of people probably never bothered to even try them. On the other hand, EG loved the ColecoVision, and Coleco's game library was indeed fresh.

 

Personally for me, the controllers were fine. I got a 5200 as soon as they were in the store, so I had the 4-port model with Super Breakout. I also had Star Raiders and a few others. Loved the games and the system. No problems with using the controllers, no problems with reliability (see below).

 

The only reason I got rid of the system was because I wanted to learn how to program.

 

Prior to the 5200 coming out, I got the ColecoVision. I had DK, Venture, Carnival, Space Fury, and Lady Bug. Loved all those games. The controller wasn't a problem for me at all. And the CV, thanks to the adapter, played all my VCS games.

 

But I still got rid of the CV as soon as the 5200 came out. In fact, we had it such a short time that my parents were able to get a full refund at Toys R Us. (I sold all those CIB VCS games at a garage sale for a few bucks apiece...*wah!*.)

 

We had the 5200 a little longer, but had no problem returning it all thanks to the reported reliability problems and the video game crash and all that.

 

But the real reason we got rid of the 5200 was that my parents were buying me an Atari 400 so I could finally learn to program. Otherwise, if I'd just been a gamer and uninterested in programming, we probably would have kept the 5200 until the 7800 or NES came out.

[VectorGamer]

I just got Defender for the 5200 today. Wow - what the heck was Atari thinkin'? This version sux, but not as bad as the 2600 garbage they released. In fact, Stargate for the 2600 is better than the 5200 version of Defender.

 

Colecovision's Defender is the best of the bunch.

[Ransom]

I just got Defender for the 5200 today. Wow - what the heck was Atari thinkin'? This version sux, but not as bad as the 2600 garbage they released. In fact, Stargate for the 2600 is better than the 5200 version of Defender.

 

Colecovision's Defender is the best of the bunch.

 

I'm shocked that I seem to be the only one who really enjoys 5200 Defender and thinks the CV version is dumbed down.

 

I'm curious what it is about the 5200 version that turns you off?

Edited April 16, 2009 by Ransom

[HARMIK]

I think Defender is an awesome port for the 5200, I'm also curious what people dont like about it?

[VectorGamer]

I just got Defender for the 5200 today. Wow - what the heck was Atari thinkin'? This version sux, but not as bad as the 2600 garbage they released. In fact, Stargate for the 2600 is better than the 5200 version of Defender.

 

Colecovision's Defender is the best of the bunch.

 

I'm shocked that I seem to be the only one who really enjoys 5200 Defender and thinks the CV version is dumbed down.

 

I'm curious what it is about the 5200 version that turns you off?

 

The graphics are off. Also, there are so many explosions going on you can't see what the heck you're doing.

 

Videogamecritic rates the game as a B+. They said the same about the explosions and I agree with the sound effects being dead on. I would probably rate it a B-.

 

Interesting is that the screenshot on videogamecritic shows the aliens as the correct shade of green. Mine shows the aliens as a teal color. Maybe my cart needs cleaned - I dunno.

Edited April 16, 2009 by rmaerz

[+Cafeman]

The 5200 version might seem a little big framey nowadys, but it was AWESOME compared to what was available back in the early 80's. I thought the programmer did an outstanding job.

[jetset]

I think Defender is an awesome port for the 5200, I'm also curious what people dont like about it?

 

The 5200 version is pretty perfect IMO. Surprisingly the CV version is quite good as well, but the colors...well it's too much white. The sound on the CV is kinda...fartey. But I digress. Defender is another of those games that could have saved the 5200 if it were the pack in. The controllers were made for this type of game, there's no reason that the non centering is an issue because you never stand still. The only complaint I have are the squishy fire buttons (until I did the tn foil fix). The explosions are great and the sound is pretty spot on from the arcade. Definitely one of the killer aps (if there were such a term back then) for the system.

[+Cafeman]

Speaking of killer apps, the 5200 versions of not only Defender and Pac-Man but also Pole Position were very exciting to me & my gaming friends. Those of you who weren't around or paying attention in the early 80's, don't think that Atari was really banking on Super Breakout. It didn't take too long before Pac-man was the free pack-in and that's when I got my 5200. To me, even though the CV had some unique and nice games like DK, Smurf, Ladybug and Mouse Trap, I was still excited by the coin-ops. So I had to get a 5200 so I could play Centipede, Pole Position, Pac-Man, Defender, and also non-exclusive games like Frogger and Q*bert. Of course I didn't yet own an A8 computer so it was all new and exciting to me, and much more attractive than the weak 2600 conversions.

 

Also, concerning Defender -- I tried to like the 2600 version. I played it quite a bit. I met the programmer at Philly Classic and drank a beer with him, even bought his super-cool 2600 Bugs Bunny game. But I must come clean - 2600 Defender is really BAD. It isn't hard enough since your ship disappears (no collision!) when you fire and the special "rules" on how to activate smart bombs and hyperspace ruin it. I could have accepted a city instead of mountains but those other things weren't acceptable trade-offs. Atari should have allowed more time for the programmer to do a better port (see Defender II / Stargate on 2600!).

[VectorGamer]

<<<SNiP>>>

 

Also, concerning Defender -- I tried to like the 2600 version. I played it quite a bit. I met the programmer at Philly Classic and drank a beer with him, even bought his super-cool 2600 Bugs Bunny game. But I must come clean - 2600 Defender is really BAD. It isn't hard enough since your ship disappears (no collision!) when you fire and the special "rules" on how to activate smart bombs and hyperspace ruin it. I could have accepted a city instead of mountains but those other things weren't acceptable trade-offs. Atari should have allowed more time for the programmer to do a better port (see Defender II / Stargate on 2600!).

 

That 2600 version gives me a headache with all the flickering. You should've busted that programmer's chops about that release while you had the opportunity.

 

Speaking of Frogger, IMHO THE best version was the "Official" released on the Supercharger by Starpath/Arcadia.

[+wood_jl]

Speaking of Frogger, IMHO THE best version was the "Official" released on the Supercharger by Starpath/Arcadia.

 

No doubt it's good, and certainly worthy of some praise. However, I'd have to say the Atari 400/800 version takes the prize. I could be a little biased since it's the version I've played the most, but your eyes will approve of it a tiny bit more.

 

To be absolutely honest, I'd say the Sega Genesis version is the closest to the actual arcade (mame!). It is truly excellent. Of course it should be, considering how much newer/better the SG is than the 8-bit sytems. I guess I'd have to say it's a little better than the Atari 400/800. Now to invoke my bias: I enjoy the A8 version best, although the SG version is the best and the Supercharger version is a tremendous accomplishment.

 

The worst version? No, not the 2600. It's the Super Nintendo. They also made a Game Boy Color with the same "look and feel" (not my cliche but works) as each other, and **NOT** the arcade look at all. They totally lick balls, and I'm sad to say I own both of them because I didn't know; I assumed the SNES version would be comparable to (if not better than) than Genesis...WRONG!!! GB Color version was equally disappointing and very similar. I'd rather play Parker Bros. 2600 version than either, because it was at least *trying* to be the arcade game.

 

JW