To dump or not to dump?

[RangerG]

Isn't it true that as soon as you sell one reproduction cart that the owner of that cart could then dump the rom? Unethical, yes - but possible, right?

[Jess Ragan]

Absolutely, which is why I have a hard time figuring out why that would be a successful business model. Maybe the games are all sold out before anyone gets a chance to dump the ROM, I dunno.

 

I don't think selling reproductions of Frogger would have helped me out all that much, given the fact that it was a game designed for a relatively obscure console. The game has since been ported to the Master System, but that's not exactly a fan favorite either.

[MrMark0673]

Absolutely, which is why I have a hard time figuring out why that would be a successful business model. Maybe the games are all sold out before anyone gets a chance to dump the ROM, I dunno.

 

I don't think selling reproductions of Frogger would have helped me out all that much, given the fact that it was a game designed for a relatively obscure console. The game has since been ported to the Master System, but that's not exactly a fan favorite either.

 

Most CIB NES releases as of late have had a presale (Ditka, Happy Camper, etc.) and sold well over 100 before repro makers got the released ROM. Also, with the limited release aspect of it collectors have been more likely to buy one of the "original" numbered repros then they have a loose cart from one of the many repro sites.

 

To Tempest: Dumping has consistently devalued unreleased games and is easily the biggest factor in value of a proto. California Raisin's had $2k offers pre dump and sold for $600 post dump. Castlevania4ever had many protos of dumped, released games that went for a full term on EBay and brought in just over $300 a piece (Cross Fire, Hit the Ice, Sun Man, etc.). The ONLY instance of a proto selling for more post-dumping was Earthbound and that can be attributed to a few factors. #1: A very large fan base and #2: The person who purchased it was the WIFE of a collector and most people agree that she greatly overpaid for it. The new owner made many attempts to sell it at a significant loss to no avail.

 

When it comes to unreleased games, level of completeness matters but only to an extent. I purchased Arcadia VI for $1,500 and out of the 6 games that were meant to be on it, only 4 were ever started and only 1 was ever completed. I wouldn't have paid more than $300-$400 had it been dumped, as would most other proto collectors.

 

Anyway, I am releasing at least 2 more games for the NES from protos that I have purchased. I paid over $1k for each on of them, after I dump them and sell off repros I'm willing to sell each one for a measly $800. Hey, the cart is the only valuable part, right?

[mcjakeqcool]

Before a answer wether to dump it or not, what the hell is the NAME of the prototype. I can give you a uniformed opinion, but not a informed opinion, don't throw it away, as no technology should be thrown away, only what can not be recycled or used again should be thrown away. However tell me what the name of the prototype is, and I can give you a informed opinion.

[Tempest]

Absolutely, which is why I have a hard time figuring out why that would be a successful business model. Maybe the games are all sold out before anyone gets a chance to dump the ROM, I dunno.

 

I don't think selling reproductions of Frogger would have helped me out all that much, given the fact that it was a game designed for a relatively obscure console. The game has since been ported to the Master System, but that's not exactly a fan favorite either.

 

Most CIB NES releases as of late have had a presale (Ditka, Happy Camper, etc.) and sold well over 100 before repro makers got the released ROM. Also, with the limited release aspect of it collectors have been more likely to buy one of the "original" numbered repros then they have a loose cart from one of the many repro sites.

 

To Tempest: Dumping has consistently devalued unreleased games and is easily the biggest factor in value of a proto. California Raisin's had $2k offers pre dump and sold for $600 post dump. Castlevania4ever had many protos of dumped, released games that went for a full term on EBay and brought in just over $300 a piece (Cross Fire, Hit the Ice, Sun Man, etc.). The ONLY instance of a proto selling for more post-dumping was Earthbound and that can be attributed to a few factors. #1: A very large fan base and #2: The person who purchased it was the WIFE of a collector and most people agree that she greatly overpaid for it. The new owner made many attempts to sell it at a significant loss to no avail.

 

When it comes to unreleased games, level of completeness matters but only to an extent. I purchased Arcadia VI for $1,500 and out of the 6 games that were meant to be on it, only 4 were ever started and only 1 was ever completed. I wouldn't have paid more than $300-$400 had it been dumped, as would most other proto collectors.

 

Anyway, I am releasing at least 2 more games for the NES from protos that I have purchased. I paid over $1k for each on of them, after I dump them and sell off repros I'm willing to sell each one for a measly $800. Hey, the cart is the only valuable part, right?

 

Maybe that's true for NES prototypes, but I haven't seen that happen wth 2600/5200/7800 protos.

 

Tempest

[carmel_andrews]

I guess then that to paraphrase the OP original point, it's a catch 22 situation, i.e. if Jess dumps the games and makes them available, they will lose some collectible value, on the other hand, if he see's his collection of rares as an investment and decides not to dump then he might be seen as depriving others of a bit of gaming history or something

 

it just occured to me though, i get the impression though reading the posts on this thread that people are selling repro's of dumped rare's on sites like ebay etc

 

not that i bother using ebay but, i have heard on many an occasion that it is ebay's policy not to allow the selling of 'copied' or 'pirated' material...surely in that case a repro is technically a'copy' of something else, they why is ebay allowing people to selling copied material on their website when their 'rules' or t's and c's clearly states that the selling of such material (via their site) is prohibited

 

What i don't understand is, why would someone want to 'pay' for a reproduction, after all, to compare in to people getting cracked or pirated software back in the day, i don't remember ever handing over any money for any copied or cracked software i had or have back in the day (not that i believe in getting something for nothing)

 

And if these people who buy these repro's are collectors in the same way that jess, tempest, rom hunter et al are, surely they must know that all they're buying is a copy and no different to me getting a copy of star raiders or pacman etc, only difference is, they are paying for it...why

 

1 idea would be, if jess decides to go down the 'dump' route, is to somehow dump a 'crippled' version of the game (i.e say 2-3 levels or just one) and release it as PD that way, no one in there right mind would want to repro and sell a crippled game and not only that, since it's PD, that can be got for pennies, so why would someone buy a repro of a crippled PD program that would cost as much if not more then the original crippled PD program

Edited May 18, 2009 by carmel_andrews

[MrMark0673]

What i don't understand is, why would someone want to 'pay' for a reproduction, after all, to compare in to people getting cracked or pirated software back in the day, i don't remember ever handing over any money for any copied or cracked software i had or have back in the day (not that i believe in getting something for nothing)

 

And if these people who buy these repro's are collectors in the same way that jess, tempest, rom hunter et al are, surely they must know that all they're buying is a copy and no different to me getting a copy of star raiders or pacman etc, only difference is, they are paying for it...why

 

They'd buy it for the same reason they would buy any other proto/homebrew repro; to have a playable copy of a game that was never released (be it homebrew or proto) on the original hardware. If you want Star Raiders or Pac Man for the 2600, go ahead and buy an original. If you want to play Hoppin' Mad on the NES, either buy a copy from me or wait until the ROM is released, buy an EPROM programmer, desolder the PRG and CHR ROMs on an NROM board, program (and erase is you bought used) the CHR and PRG EPROMs (assuming you have the knowledge and ability to split a .NES file into CHR and PRG files), solder them into the board and voila! You have your own copy on a cart! Understand why people are willing to pay for that service now?

 

To Tempest: This is the case with not only NES protos, but others as well. One of a kind protos always sell more prior to being dumped, the only isolated incident that I know of is the case of Earthbound. If you can point me to something that shows otherwise I'd love to see it.

Edited May 18, 2009 by MrMark0673

[Foxsolo2000]

How many rare prototypes have you bought and released? It's really easy to act high and mighty when you've never spent one dime.

 

Tempest

 

Tempest I admire you a lot but I think you are being a little unfair here. Not everyone has the money to out bid the likes of Wonder and co for these things when they come up. I actually owned a prototype of Cakewalk but had no way to dump it for at the time I did not possess the means or knowledge and when I lost my job I sadly had to sell it for less than I bought it for I might add. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if I could afford it I would attempt to buy protos and release them now I know how to do it but the truth of the matter is I just cannot afford it. For the record I would be more than happy for you to review a prototype and the owner keep it hoarded for then at least myself and the rest of the community will at least see pics of the game and know the mechanics of its game play.

[Tempest]

How many rare prototypes have you bought and released? It's really easy to act high and mighty when you've never spent one dime.

 

Tempest

 

Tempest I admire you a lot but I think you are being a little unfair here. Not everyone has the money to out bid the likes of Wonder and co for these things when they come up. I actually owned a prototype of Cakewalk but had no way to dump it for at the time I did not possess the means or knowledge and when I lost my job I sadly had to sell it for less than I bought it for I might add. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if I could afford it I would attempt to buy protos and release them now I know how to do it but the truth of the matter is I just cannot afford it. For the record I would be more than happy for you to review a prototype and the owner keep it hoarded for then at least myself and the rest of the community will at least see pics of the game and know the mechanics of its game play.

I'm simply saying that until you've plunked down the money for a prototype you really can't understand how hard of a decision dumping and releasing the rom is.

 

Tempest

[DracIsBack]

I'm simply saying that until you've plunked down the money for a prototype you really can't understand how hard of a decision dumping and releasing the rom is.

 

You know, it used to bug the hell out of me when people would "hoard" a prototype so that others couldn't share it. But after watching the economics over the last couple of years, I can appreciate a bit more why people wouldn't share and especially how hard the decision is when one does. I honestly wonder if creating repros really does recoup the value lost from the original prototype.

 

I still hope 7800 Electrocop shows up some day! (I'm convinced someone in this forum has it and has been quiet about it all along).

Edited May 18, 2009 by DracIsBack

[Tempest]

I honestly wonder if creating repros really does recoup the value lost from the original prototype.

It depends on how much the owner paid for the prototype in the first place. If someone paid $3,000 for a prototype then no, probably not. But if they paid $500 then yes, they probably can.

 

Tempest

[Foxsolo2000]

How many rare prototypes have you bought and released? It's really easy to act high and mighty when you've never spent one dime.

 

Tempest

 

Tempest I admire you a lot but I think you are being a little unfair here. Not everyone has the money to out bid the likes of Wonder and co for these things when they come up. I actually owned a prototype of Cakewalk but had no way to dump it for at the time I did not possess the means or knowledge and when I lost my job I sadly had to sell it for less than I bought it for I might add. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if I could afford it I would attempt to buy protos and release them now I know how to do it but the truth of the matter is I just cannot afford it. For the record I would be more than happy for you to review a prototype and the owner keep it hoarded for then at least myself and the rest of the community will at least see pics of the game and know the mechanics of its game play.

I'm simply saying that until you've plunked down the money for a prototype you really can't understand how hard of a decision dumping and releasing the rom is.

 

Tempest

 

I appreciate and understand what you are saying. I paid 200 sterling for my prototype of Cakewalk and wish to hell I had at least sent you a rom of it but at the time I didn't know you and secondly had no idea how to do it. Economics forced me to sell it. I wish I had the crazy money of some members on here but as I don't all I can do is to appeal to them to at the very least allow you to review the rom for you have a proven track record of trust and by doing a review at least it allows the rest of us to share in the game in a spiritual sense at the very least

[MrMark0673]

I honestly wonder if creating repros really does recoup the value lost from the original prototype.

 

Depends what platform the game is for and how it is released. Bunnyboy auctioned off 5 gold Campus Challenge repros that sold for a total of $2,077.02:

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messagevi...;threadid=16768

 

Add to that whatever profit he has made off of the carts he sells for $85 a pop on retrousb.com, and he could have easily made several thousand on it. I am very comfortable with the projected profit of my release, devalue of proto and all. I guess I can let you guys know for sure in 2 weeks

Edited May 18, 2009 by MrMark0673

[Wickeycolumbus]

I honestly wonder if creating repros really does recoup the value lost from the original prototype.

 

Depends what platform the game is for and how it is released. Bunnyboy auctioned off 5 gold Campus Challenge repros that sold for a total of $2,077.02:

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messagevi...;threadid=16768

 

Add to that whatever profit he has made off of the carts he sells for $85 a pop on retrousb.com, and he could have easily made several thousand on it. I am very comfortable with the projected profit of my release, devalue of proto and all. I guess I can let you guys know for sure in 2 weeks

 

The NES scene baffles me sometimes... Protos loose ~75% of their value because they have been released, but then a reproduction sells for $400 + just because it is in a gold case. Wouldn't say a California Rasins proto be worth a lot more? Am I missing something here?

 

I don't mean to start a conflict here, but seriously, I don't get it

[Rom Hunter]

I'm simply saying that until you've plunked down the money for a prototype you really can't understand how hard of a decision dumping and releasing the rom is.

What I would like to know is this:

 

Do you buy (invest in) a proto to eventually sell it for more money or do you buy it for the love of collecting an interesting piece of video game history?

 

If the first reason is the case, I can understand you want to keep it for yourself until you sell it again (although I still think you should make a copy of the ROM to eliminate the risk of losing the game forever).

 

If the last reason is the case, I don't see why you shouldn't share a copy of it with other collectors and video game fans (making a few bucks while doing that).

 

Or can both reasons be the case?

A collector/business man enjoying something extremely rare untill he can sell it for more money?

Somehow, I have mixed feelings about that.

 

 

And there's also the Blue Sky Strangers so called "copyright" reason of course, whatever that may be...

 

Edited May 18, 2009 by Rom Hunter

[deathtrappomegranate]

It should be at the discretion of the owner of the prototype. For those of you saying to dump and release, that's great! Now go spend thousands on unreleased, undumped protos and release them to the public.

 

I personally dump every proto that comes through my hands, and I have several unreleased games for the NES in my possession. The whole "having the cart is good enough for me" argument is asinine too. Why spend thousands on an item and then intentionally devalue it? If that's your MO, then more power to you. If the cart alone is all you want, why not buy dumped protos for a fraction of the price?

I am one of those who said "dump and release", because that is what I do. A couple of prototypes, many previously undumped titles, some previously unknown.

 

I have no interest in NES stuff; I'm an Atari 8-bit guy, and there isn't so much money floating around in our corner of the pond. However, that matters very little.

 

I collect in order to own the items in question. I pay for them what I think they're worth. If they're undumped, then I dump them (sometimes with a little help from my friends), and archive and release the dumps. If I buy a large lot to obtain a rare item, I do sometimes sell on the excess items, but I don't, and wouldn't, sell repros to recoup my costs. I don't care at all whether dumping a rare or unique item might devalue it; since I have no intention of selling it, its value is of no consequence.

 

As you suggest, decisions about what to do with rare items are the prerogative of the owners. It couldn't be otherwise. Good luck with your plans!

[TheRedEye]

My perspective on this issue is that if you're worried about your "investment," you should consider a more lucrative hobby than classic games. I have "de-valued" (or at least contributed to de-valuing) more prototypes than anyone save maybe Tempest without ever selling a damned thing, and though I am currently unemployed and in a financial spot myself I have never regretted it. I would hate to think that fifty years from now a game is lost forever because some enterprising collector was terrified of losing, gasp, a thousand dollars.

 

Call me crazy if you want, but saving a one-of-a-kind piece of the history pertaining to my lifelong hobby and career is more important and valuable to me than one week's salary, even while I'm not working. It absolutely blows my mind that the overwhelming majority of people who dedicate their free time to classic games to the point where they regularly post on internet forums feel differently. I just can not comprehend that, it is absurd to me.

 

Jess, don't know what you're talking about with the donation drive, but Brandon dumped Raisins for free and sold it at a significant theoretical "loss" (though a $700+ profit compared to what he'd paid), which he was 100% OK with. He knew what would happen, but didn't care. I talked to him on and off until he died, and he continued to be proud of what he'd done, to the point where his mother wrote something about it on his memorial site.

[MrMark0673]

My perspective on this issue is that if you're worried about your "investment," you should consider a more lucrative hobby than classic games. I have "de-valued" (or at least contributed to de-valuing) more prototypes than anyone save maybe Tempest without ever selling a damned thing, and though I am currently unemployed and in a financial spot myself I have never regretted it. I would hate to think that fifty years from now a game is lost forever because some enterprising collector was terrified of losing, gasp, a thousand dollars.

 

Call me crazy if you want, but saving a one-of-a-kind piece of the history pertaining to my lifelong hobby and career is more important and valuable to me than one week's salary, even while I'm not working. It absolutely blows my mind that the overwhelming majority of people who dedicate their free time to classic games to the point where they regularly post on internet forums feel differently. I just can not comprehend that, it is absurd to me.

 

Jess, don't know what you're talking about with the donation drive, but Brandon dumped Raisins for free and sold it at a significant theoretical "loss" (though a $700+ profit compared to what he'd paid), which he was 100% OK with. He knew what would happen, but didn't care. I talked to him on and off until he died, and he continued to be proud of what he'd done, to the point where his mother wrote something about it on his memorial site.

 

I've always seen your points Frank, but I see it as if I can preserve the game, AND provide collectors with a hard copy, AND release the ROM to the public, AND make a buck at the same time, what's the issue? With repros, most people are happy. The person who bought the game gets to keep a (likely) one of a kind item on their shelf. The collecting community gets a game that will go with the rest of their collection and a game they can play on the real hardware the way it was designed to be played. The game "preservation society" gets the history of a game that could very well have been lost forever. The game owner also makes back part of the money he put into preserving it in the first place.

 

The only people who lose out in this situation is the original company that developed the game. The programmers were paid for their work, unless of course they owned the company in question. I tried to contact the original members of the development team for Hoppin' Mad, but to no avail. Also, although I had a programmer finish the game (the coding for the third level was incomplete), we have kept the names of the original development team in the game.

 

I understand that many people have spent thousands to release games to the community and asked for nothing in return, and that's great. I appreciate everything they have done to do so. I personally contributed to the release of the ROM for Mike Tyson's Intergalactic Power Punch so that the ROM could be preserved, and I plan to continue to contribute to releases that NA aim to make public. I have put countless hours into soldering boards (and the laundry list of other things that go into a CIB repro release) and will continue to do it with every unreleased game that I come across.

 

I've also experienced the heartache of buying an undumped, unreleased game too late. I purchased a 3.5" floppy with the ROM files for the Genesis game Kartoon Kombat. Unfortunately, one of the 4 files on the disc had been damaged and was corrupted. I brought it to a PC repair shop and sent it to a forum member for possible repair but it was no use. All I have now is some text pulled from a hex editor with character descriptions and maybe a few sprites. All of this could have been avoided if the previous owner had spent 5 minutes saving the files onto his computer.

 

I'm not into protos for investment reasons, I don't know how many proto collectors are really. I love the NES, and to get to see and play games that should have been released is one of those crazy feelings you just can't explain. I'd love for others to play the games that I've purchased, but I'd also like to keep up with my mortgage at the same time. They could sit on my shelf, or I could make repros and continue to release games to the community. I think the later is a no brainer.

Edited May 19, 2009 by MrMark0673

[H.E.R.O.]

Well, I know the arcade Marble Madness II proto is really supposed to suck but doesn't stop me from wanting to play it! How can Marble Madness in any form be BAD???

[Tempest]

I have "de-valued" (or at least contributed to de-valuing) more prototypes than anyone save maybe Tempest

Hehe... I like that. Maybe I should be called the "De-valuer of Prototypes" now.

 

Jess, don't know what you're talking about with the donation drive, but Brandon dumped Raisins for free and sold it at a significant theoretical "loss" (though a $700+ profit compared to what he'd paid), which he was 100% OK with. He knew what would happen, but didn't care. I talked to him on and off until he died, and he continued to be proud of what he'd done, to the point where his mother wrote something about it on his memorial site.

I must have missed something. The person who found and dumped the California Raisins prototype died? I never knew that. How sad.

 

Tempest

[Buyatari]

I have "de-valued" (or at least contributed to de-valuing) more prototypes than anyone save maybe Tempest

Hehe... I like that. Maybe I should be called the "De-valuer of Prototypes" now.

 

Jess, don't know what you're talking about with the donation drive, but Brandon dumped Raisins for free and sold it at a significant theoretical "loss" (though a $700+ profit compared to what he'd paid), which he was 100% OK with. He knew what would happen, but didn't care. I talked to him on and off until he died, and he continued to be proud of what he'd done, to the point where his mother wrote something about it on his memorial site.

I must have missed something. The person who found and dumped the California Raisins prototype died? I never knew that. How sad.

 

Tempest

 

When raisins was dumped I was pretty upset at the events leading up to it. They guy was misled to believe by many people that the price would NOT drop after he dumped it. It was peer pressure that led him to dump it. Sure afterwards when he sold if for ~2500 less than he would have had it not been dumped he stated I still would have done it but really what was he supposed to say at that point? This why I chime in into these conversations whenever they pop up. You are free to dump the ROM should you want to but just know what it is you are doing. There are consequences both good and bad.

 

Anyway yeah Tempest, it was pretty horrible. He didn't just die he was shot and then his apartment was set on fire to hide the tracks by his roommates.

[Tempest]

Anyway yeah Tempest, it was pretty horrible. He didn't just die he was shot and then his apartment was set on fire to hide the tracks by his roommates.

Oh my god! So was it just plain old robbery or was there something else going on? I assume it had nothing to do with the prototype.

 

Tempest

[Buyatari]

Anyway yeah Tempest, it was pretty horrible. He didn't just die he was shot and then his apartment was set on fire to hide the tracks by his roommates.

Oh my god! So was it just plain old robbery or was there something else going on? I assume it had nothing to do with the prototype.

 

Tempest

 

I think they did steal some things but no they killed him just to kill him. As I said it was pretty horrible.

[Tempest]

Anyway yeah Tempest, it was pretty horrible. He didn't just die he was shot and then his apartment was set on fire to hide the tracks by his roommates.

Oh my god! So was it just plain old robbery or was there something else going on? I assume it had nothing to do with the prototype.

 

Tempest

 

I think they did steal some things but no they killed him just to kill him. As I said it was pretty horrible.

That's one of the saddest things I think I've ever read on AA. Please tell me they caught the guy.

 

Tempest

[Buyatari]

Anyway yeah Tempest, it was pretty horrible. He didn't just die he was shot and then his apartment was set on fire to hide the tracks by his roommates.

Oh my god! So was it just plain old robbery or was there something else going on? I assume it had nothing to do with the prototype.

 

Tempest

 

I think they did steal some things but no they killed him just to kill him. As I said it was pretty horrible.

That's one of the saddest things I think I've ever read on AA. Please tell me they caught the guy.

 

Tempest

 

http://brandon-christopher-murphy.memory-of.com/About.aspx

 

from that website

 

"P.S. The male animal who killed you committed suicide on 3/2/09. What a coward. Since he was the reason you were killed maybe now you finally feel justice has been served. Rest in peace "