promethea Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 My my my my, I've been out most of the day (when I wasn't toying with my source code), and I almost forgot this thread's existence. Now I came back home from a lovely sunny day, and read all these posts! Now, I'm going to write those off as "LOL, Internet", but first, allow me for a small rant (if not, just skip the rest of the post, nothing to see here ) Like I wrote on the D-bug forums, one skunkboard found its way to Outline 2009 because we loaned one to some friends to show off Jetpac on the big screen. Now, if you guys don't know what Outline is, let me do a short intro: It's a party, a gathering of creative Atari people regardless of the bits their machines have. There they drink alcoholic bevereges, talk a lot, code, draw graphics, compose music, collaborate, and hold compos of unreleased stuff. A lot of people in the party (that have Jaguars but never kept close contact with Jaguar developments) were really amazed at the skunkboard (I can't say the same about Jetpac - blame D-bug for that ) and asked where can they get it. Unfortunately the ordering phase for the rev.2 was over at that time, so it was "tough luck suckers" for them. Noone said that they were all devs, who knows, maybe they just want to have some fun with their machines. But there definitely were some potential devs there. After some personal thinking from myself (we could use a couple more boards, for example Mr Morden uses a donated skunkboard as it is ), I decided to open the thread at the D-bug forums, not knowing what kskunk and tursi had in mind about the future of the skunkboard (maybe I should have e-mailed them first, but I dunno, maybe I thought that it would be surprised or flattered if they saw a thread like that ). Then some guys start commenting on this thread, making some internal jokes about buying 20 boards (buddy), the others play along - not a HINT of a smiley or a wink so that the rest of the world would understand that this was a joke. So we reacted like we did, and because of most of the stuff I wrote above. Then buddy and other peole start attacking us for not understanding their jokes and for being noobies (yeah, right, like one is more Jaguar savvy proportional to the money he spends on it - sheesh! (no offense meant here!)), we even got called bad names and mocked. All this because we tried to do a honest thing and raise some signatures for a possible 3rd batch... Yes, of course all you guys have the right to do what you want with your money (it's a free world after all), but then again greed is a sin. And by greed I mean every person that bought more than one skunkboard "just to have a backup" or "just to have them like everything other that is or works with the Jaguar". I really think it's unfair to the people that didn't react fast enough in this case. Of course you have the right to call us names and gloat us and whatnot, again this is a free world, and this is the Internet (like I said on top of this post). But then again, we have every right to complete our projects, show videos to you and let them ROT on our hard drives. Right? P.S. Tursi, thank you very much for your clear and tame post! If you guys aren't willing to produce any more runs of this board, would you be willing to open up the project so that people (like ourselves) might be able to produce small (or big) batches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Gah, I've only made 10 posts on here & I've already spat my dummy & walked twice... I've ordered myself one of those teflon/asbestos suits (with double stitched crotch) so I'll be prepared next time... heh, next time... next time I'll just take a step back & leave it to those that started it Thanks to Promethea for those highly articulate, informed & kind words of her's & thanks for the PMs & the comments in the previous posts from Starcat & Tursi, at least that explained how things are a little better, cheers. -kZa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Welcome to the Jag Scene, Reboot gang. Make sure you handle the Jaguar with gloves on so you're not affected by whatever chemicals are in the Jag plastics that make the natives go off the deep end. And lets be honest, Buddies having 20 Skunkboards did seem quite silly from the start. I mean, that number just seemed way too low... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) From my point of view, the Jaguar developers who have been around the scene for awhile got them and they were the ones who needed them the most got them! There are not 200 Jag developers out there and if you are new to the scene either you hunt one down or use an Alpine, BJL or wait for the JagCF. @ Mr Morden - For you to call me an idiot collector looking for bragging right is ridiculous, obviously with your 8 posts at Atariage you have no idea what the hell you are talking about considering i have probably the largest Jaguar collection around. Ive spent well over $60k in my Jaguar collection and you act like im just another collector looking for bragging rights... whatever dude,long after you leave the Jaguar scene BuddyBuddies will still be here. What a load of crap! So you basically admit that everyone "in the loop" got one, but go screw you if you are a potential future development. Long after I've left the Jag scene (and other devs), you'll still be here. Great for you. Know how to develop on it, do you? I'm sure you'll see some AMAZING things then. I know you have the largest jaguar collection around? So what? T-Rex was huge, but his brain was the size of a walnut. If you love the jaguar so much, put those skunkboards right where they will do your precious console the most good. In the hands of devs. Otherwise go sit down and look at your revolving glass cabinet. Edited June 21, 2009 by Mr Morden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Unfortunately this is the internet and nobody owes anybody anything. Not all devs are created equal either. I'm sure anybody with a fantastic Jaguar game idea could create the same game on a PC/Mac/Linux just to create some interest around it and to thrash out ideas and algorithms. The game is probably not going to push a modern PC in any way and it will probably need coding in assembler on the real Jag but at least it shows what you can do. Talent always finds a way to express itself. If you showcased a game on AA or elsewhere and can't test on real hardware you have to let go of the reigns a little bit and let others test for you. You have to give to the community, build your reputation and not take, take, take. You should always remember that you aren't going to get rich from your game because its been developed for a long dead platform. If you want to make money work on iPhone games and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Unfortunately this is the internet and nobody owes anybody anything. Not all devs are created equal either. I'm sure anybody with a fantastic Jaguar game idea could create the same game on a PC/Mac/Linux just to create some interest around it and to thrash out ideas and algorithms. The game is probably not going to push a modern PC in any way and it will probably need coding in assembler on the real Jag but at least it shows what you can do. Talent always finds a way to express itself. If you showcased a game on AA or elsewhere and can't test on real hardware you have to let go of the reigns a little bit and let others test for you. You have to give to the community, build your reputation and not take, take, take. You should always remember that you aren't going to get rich from your game because its been developed for a long dead platform. If you want to make money work on iPhone games and the like. Up to a point, you are correct. And for nearly every other console around that would be mostly true. But for the Jaguar, with its buggy hardware, it's not practical. We started off this way, using Virtual Jaguar (VJ does not respect the phrase aligned GPU or ObjectProcessor, it'll work from any even address! MUCH hair pulling over that one!), and then emailing binaries to our testers only to find that stuff that worked 100% in VJag didnt run on the real hardware. Not to mention the turn around times. Sometimes you just want to test something and see the result immediatly to tweak it, which is really frustrating with a several hour turnaround. And on top of that, when code doesnt perform as expected (heh, development fun) its really hard to have someone "describe the bug" rather than see it directly yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Up to a point, you are correct. And for nearly every other console around that would be mostly true. But for the Jaguar, with its buggy hardware, it's not practical. We started off this way, using Virtual Jaguar (VJ does not respect the phrase aligned GPU or ObjectProcessor, it'll work from any even address! MUCH hair pulling over that one!), and then emailing binaries to our testers only to find that stuff that worked 100% in VJag didnt run on the real hardware. Welcome to the world of emulation! If you don't like the behaviour and the source of the emulator is available change it yourself and give it back to the community. I've developed on plenty of buggy hardware in my time. You develop workarounds, implement them and move on. I've never used it as an excuse unless the silicon was so bug ridden the project had to be respun. The key idea is to make sure that the "features" (the bug and the workaround) are documented somewhere online (these days) so that others following in your footsteps don't have to go through the pain. Not to mention the turn around times. Sometimes you just want to test something and see the result immediatly to tweak it, which is really frustrating with a several hour turnaround. And on top of that, when code doesnt perform as expected (heh, development fun) its really hard to have someone "describe the bug" rather than see it directly yourself. With most games once you get a known hardware boot sequence working you tend to modify that for each game. A lot of times it also boils down to your experience in tracking bugs down. If you've ever done code reviews (of other peoples work) in assembler its quite an eye opener. I've debugged systems where all I had was an output pin to say if it was good or bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Welcome to the world of emulation! If you don't like the behaviour and the source of the emulator is available change it yourself and give it back to the community. I've developed on plenty of buggy hardware in my time. You develop workarounds, implement them and move on. I've never used it as an excuse unless the silicon was so bug ridden the project had to be respun. I fully agree. Don't complain unles you can do better is a good motto. Something the internet needs more of. I wasn't using it as an excuse. In fact, without VirtualJaguar, we'd have NO project at all, and even with a skunkboard here, it's still my primary testing ground. Assemble, link, test on vjag. If it works there, it _might_ work on the real hardware With most games once you get a known hardware boot sequence working you tend to modify that for each game. A lot of times it also boils down to your experience in tracking bugs down. If you've ever done code reviews (of other peoples work) in assembler its quite an eye opener. I've debugged systems where all I had was an output pin to say if it was good or bad. Again, I agree completely. I've got quite a lot of assembler level debugging experience, especially with other people's work, and yes, you very often have "what the HELL did they do that for?" moments. But the point remains, having first hand experience of the visual results of a bug are often magnitudes better than having it described to you by someone else, several hours later. Project-1 had a non-critical bug in its game engine, that we tried for over a week to fix via e-mail exchanges with the testers (it ran perfectly in Vjag). Once the skunkboard arrived in my hands, and I saw it myself, it was fixed inside of 15 minutes. This kind of testing is invaluable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 See! We aren't all bad . I'm not saying that you don't need to test on real hardware. Thats a fact of life and always necessary. I'm just saying that sometimes you have to work around what you haven't got. Theres far too many people trying to code their magnum opus when they should just enjoy coding simpler games and getting recognition from their peers and target platform fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 If you showcased a game on AA or elsewhere and can't test on real hardware you have to let go of the reigns a little bit and let others test for you. We're lucky, we've got 2 great playtesters & a third who is on the lookout for a skunkboard so he can join the fun. & a couple of us take time out to do a bit when needed such as the other night where my jag couldn't decide if it was a pal or ntsc machine from minute to minute You have to give to the community, build your reputation and not take, take, take. Yep, between us with over 30 game releases (not tech demos, previews or movies - actual released games), 50 tools & apps, countless demos & other prods we know a bit about giving You should always remember that you aren't going to get rich from your game because its been developed for a long dead platform. If you want to make money work on iPhone games and the like. Do you mean us personally or Jaguar developers in general? We don't have any plans to make money as our games will be free, as they have always been on whatever console/computer we worked with before, we're in it for the hell of it & I have to say that even though I've not worked with any of these guys before I'm having a blast & enjoying (almost every minute of it. See! We aren't all bad Theres far too many people trying to code their magnum opus when they should just enjoy coding simpler games and getting recognition from their peers and target platform fans. There's a happy medium for sure. -kZa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Yep, between us with over 30 game releases (not tech demos, previews or movies - actual released games), 50 tools & apps, countless demos & other prods we know a bit about giving Looking at your website hosted by dbug no mention is made of any of that. You should always remember that you aren't going to get rich from your game because its been developed for a long dead platform. If you want to make money work on iPhone games and the like. Do you mean us personally or Jaguar developers in general? We don't have any plans to make money as our games will be free, as they have always been on whatever console/computer we worked with before, we're in it for the hell of it & I have to say that even though I've not worked with any of these guys before I'm having a blast & enjoying (almost every minute of it. All homebrewers I meant. Do it for the love and the glory but not the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Looking at your website hosted by dbug no mention is made of any of that. I'm not sure how the website works being hosted by dbug, I think it's just temporary until we can sort something out ourselves. There's no mention of our previous work because we are all from different backgrounds on different systems & none of that is reboot. The reboot site is just for our work together on these jaguar projects. All homebrewers I meant. Do it for the love and the glory but not the money! The love might grow on us & I'm not sure about any glory, but I agree with the sentiment -kZa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyBuddies Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 JAGUAR RULES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viMaster Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Wow, I lay in bed sick for a day and come back and this thread went to crap! Anyway, any new devs (Reboot) are always welcome in the Jag scene. Don't mind buddies -- he just didn't have his Happy Flakes this morning From what I understand, the Rev 2 skunks needed to be sold -- and quickly (which has been mentioned in this thread a couple times, I believe.) Announcements were made when there were still some available and no one wanted to see Tursi & KSkunk sitting there with oodles of unsold product that they worked so hard on. That unfortunately means some new devs to the scene don't have one, but that certainly doesn't mean you can't get one If I were you guys, I would ask if anyone wants to sell one or lend one out. One was already sold on EBay just a little bit ago as well, but I think it was in Europe and I don't know if you folks are located there or somewhere else. Personally, I wouldn't lend one out to anyone unless I trusted them, but I did buy two of the Rev 2s for that purpose -- lend out to future devs. I'm guessing others would be willing to as well, but it will just take some time and trust in the long run. I'm sure you understand -- you wouldn't want to lend something out to someone you don't really know well and have them run off with it In any case, don't give up. Don't give up on finding a couple more skunks if you need them, too. As far as BJL is concerned, it can be a temporary solution until your friends find something else, like a skunk or jag cf. People were using BJL & alpines before the skunks were available, so it's certainly possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kskunk Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 You guys oughta know by know KSkunk likes to stir. Aw, mea culpa. I honestly thought the number 20 was so ridiculous nobody would believe it. Those of you who know me better know I'm always teasing. I will add more winkies. See? I'm glad it was all worked out in the time between when I posted, went to bed, and checked back again. - KS P.S. I have more than 20 Skunkboards. P.P.S. Unfortunately, they're broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kskunk Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) From what I understand, the Rev 2 skunks needed to be sold -- and quickly (which has been mentioned in this thread a couple times, I believe.) A big part of why they need to be sold so fast is the cost. It takes about 12 weeks from start of production to first shippable products, and I have to pay up front. Software also took longer than planned, so for about 5 months my credit cards had a pretty scary five-figure sum on there. Not what you want during the great recession. Neither Tursi or I are set up to be store fronts. I don't have a warehouse for inventory. Your Skunkboard was at one point sitting in a pile in my living room. Needless to say, my other half was not so fond of that pile. That was probably the most, ahem, nagging source of pressure to sell out. If somebody who runs an online store wanted to purchase 100 from us and sell them off over the next couple of years, hey, I'd be honored! Long as they pay up front. - KS Edited June 22, 2009 by kskunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 If somebody who runs an online store wanted to purchase 100 from us and sell them off over the next couple of years, hey, I'd be honored!You should ask Songbird and Albert (for the AtariAge store) about that, they may be able to help you. Especially since the first two runs have shown that the Skunkboard solds extremely well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christos Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Being the person that demonstrated Jetpack at Outline 2009 I can attest to how much interest the skunkboard stirred. A lot of people asked me about it and some of them weren't even Atari sceners. Unfortunately SHW kept pressing the hang game combo on the pad... Also, just a thought, Tursi and Kskunk couldn't you take preorders like with the ultrasatan so you don't have to fund the production yourselves? Since it isn't likely that you guys have Buddies job.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kskunk Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Also, just a thought, Tursi and Kskunk couldn't you take preorders like with the ultrasatan so you don't have to fund the production yourselves? Unfortunately, it's usually against merchant regulations to take preorders via credit card for goods that will not ship within 30 days. Since our production timeline is longer than 30 days, we didn't want to risk pissing off the service handling our money. The Pandora team (openpandora.org) took a bunch of preorders for a product that missed its deadline, and a single person complained to their merchant service. All $900,000 they had collected was refunded to their customers. including money they had already spent. It almost killed the project and was a huge inconvenience for the customers too, who often didn't realize they had been refunded. I suspect most smaller/cheaper projects can get away with preorders, but why risk that? - KS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Also, just a thought, Tursi and Kskunk couldn't you take preorders like with the ultrasatan so you don't have to fund the production yourselves? Unfortunately, it's usually against merchant regulations to take preorders via credit card for goods that will not ship within 30 days. Since our production timeline is longer than 30 days, we didn't want to risk pissing off the service handling our money. The Pandora team (openpandora.org) took a bunch of preorders for a product that missed its deadline, and a single person complained to their merchant service. All $900,000 they had collected was refunded to their customers. including money they had already spent. It almost killed the project and was a huge inconvenience for the customers too, who often didn't realize they had been refunded. I suspect most smaller/cheaper projects can get away with preorders, but why risk that? - KS Same thing happened with the UltrSaTan project, and that was much smaller than the openpandora fiasco. I guess we will have to wait for the JagCF and hope that it can do at least as much as the skunk, and that the games will run on both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayton Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Someone makes a joke, some people actually take it seriously and insult a highly respected member of the Jag scene, and all **** breaks loose. Thanks for reminding me why I rarely post here anymore!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Someone makes a joke, some people actually take it seriously and insult a highly respected member of the Jag scene, and all **** breaks loose. Thanks for reminding me why I rarely post here anymore!!! What's to respect about spending $70,000 on Jaguar stuff, so as not to have bragging rights... and then to deliberatly point out that you've spent it in order to have bragging rights. That's clearly borderline insane. Almost certainly some sort of compulsive disorder, and most definatly NOT worthy of respect. Buddies, get some help man. Seriously. Collecting retro gear is fun, but that's seriously going too far. $70k should buy you one of everything and leave you with at least $60k left over. Still it's his money (or, at the very least, his bank's money) so whatever floats his mentally adrift boat, I guess. Edited June 23, 2009 by Mr Morden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks for reminding me why I rarely post here anymore!!! And the err... 'Volcana Love' reminds me why I'm glad you don't as well. J/K Seriously, everyone seems to have worked it out... Edited June 23, 2009 by remowilliams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyBuddies Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Someone makes a joke, some people actually take it seriously and insult a highly respected member of the Jag scene, and all **** breaks loose. Thanks for reminding me why I rarely post here anymore!!! What's to respect about spending $70,000 on Jaguar stuff, so as not to have bragging rights... and then to deliberatly point out that you've spent it in order to have bragging rights. That's clearly borderline insane. Almost certainly some sort of compulsive disorder, and most definatly NOT worthy of respect. Buddies, get some help man. Seriously. Collecting retro gear is fun, but that's seriously going too far. $70k should buy you one of everything and leave you with at least $60k left over. Still it's his money (or, at the very least, his bank's money) so whatever floats his mentally adrift boat, I guess. LOL..."JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS OUT, THEY PULL ME BACK IN" -- GODFATHER First off,lets start from the beginning, you and your gay little Reboot clique one after another made uncalled for comments at me because you are jealous that you don't have enough Skunkboards for your team of fucktards. It really is not my fault that i have 5 and you missed out on getting them.I do not owe you anything. You seem to think i have a spending problem buying Jaguar stuff....whatever dude grow up, you are the one that needs help here,not me. People have hobbies and interests far exceeding what ive spent on Jaguar stuff,i sense a great deal of jealousy from you. You and "kZa" are the ones who keeps bringing up how much ive spent,does it make you fools drool? I know it makes me want to buy another Jaguar kiosk You truly are an idiot in the Jaguar scene if you think one can spend $10k and get $70k worth of Jaguar stuff, you make know sense. You act like i buy just games,but again you must have no clue what you are talking about,just flapping your gums trying to bash me again. I see you at the bottom of this screen waiting for my response Mr Morden,its been over an hour, i bet you are just waiting for my response,arent ya? You seem more like a troll than a coder. I dont have alot of friends on here because i spent alot of money buying Jaguar stuff,i have friends on here because ive be active in the scene for 3 years and have earned peoples respect in the community by trading ,helping, meeting,ect and that IS why ive got alot of buddies that i share a mutual respect with. I was willing to let this whole thing go,but i cant control everybody elses opinions on here. You should have not even responded to the "Legends" post,but you did and then made it into another attack on me. True class. You should go code a game,put it on cart, turn that son-of-a-bitch sideways and shove it straight up your candy ass! Tapper...lol..i see some irony there dont you? Reboot Sucks!, but JAGUAR RULES! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) There's two thing you just said in your little tirade above that are worth replying to. You truly are an idiot in the Jaguar scene if you think one can spend $10k and get $70k worth of Jaguar stuff, you make know sense. and You should go code a game,put it on cart To the first, if you think theres ANYTHING in Jaguar land worth $70,000 then you are a complete moron. I see you spent $300 on a paper poster recently, so yes, I rest my case there. Collectors don't deserve respect because they collect. I couldn't give a flying **** what you own, and I'm certainly not jelous of you or your "little problem" - the ONLY type of collctors worthy of respect are the ones like Curt who give back. Money can't buy you that kind of respect. and to the second point. We are. What the **** are you doing with your five that makes you so much better than anyone else? Revolving in glass cabinets I expect. And if we're talking about "gay cliques" I suggest you head back to JaguarSector where you have to be licking each others fingers just to get into the download section. Yeah that's community spirit right there Edited June 23, 2009 by Mr Morden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.