CV Gus and the 5200.

[CV Gus]

All I'm trying to get across here is that just because you might like one system better than another does NOT mean you don't like that other system.

 

Didn't I not only build a digital 5200 controller without any help, but also posted full text instructions and background, as well as (thanks to Big O) diagrams so anyone can build one? Didn't I fix my 7800 so paddle controllers work once again?

 

When I post something at a website like this, they are usually just what you see. When I posted about 5200 vs. 7800, it was not only to compare the two, but to wonder if Atari might have made it if they had stuck with the 5200. Don't forget, the 5200 was doomed BEFORE the crash of 1984.

 

A CV vs. 7800 thread was not as crazy as some have implied. From what evidence I've gathered, as well as memories, the CV actually continued on into 1987 (some release dates of some games are listed as 1986). Again, it seemed as though it could've matched a 7800, as could the 5200. Don't forget, there is more than technology involved in a system's success: if tech specs were all that mattered, then the SMS would've pounded the NES.

 

I am also curious about some things, and hope to get some answers here. In my latest CV vs. 5200 post, it should have been obvious that I was wondering why more 5200 games aren't "ported" from an obvious source: Atari computers, just as MSX games can be put on a CV (e.g. Sky Jaguar). Well, at the Digital Press, it turns out that a good number of games HAVE been put on the 5200- in fact, there are so many, why didn't anyone ever point out this large number? In my earlier such post, I would then have simply stated that for after-years support, both are now supported by too many games to call- including Gateway to Apshai for the 5200 (thus, the CV advantage with RPGs is much less than I had thought).

 

Some are hypothetical. Obviously, the CV and 7800 never went directly head to head, just as the 5200 and 7800 never did- but indirectly, both the 5200 and CV may have hurt the 7800. The 5200, by being dumped so suddenly after too-short a time probably soured many potential customers to Atari, and the CV had a large enough following, a large enough library, and had lasted long enough (again, into 1987?) to make a CV to 7800 jump seem unnecessary. Thus, indirectly, both the CV and 5200 may have helped the NES against the 7800.

 

Aren't websites like this a logical place to bring these things up?

 

That's all there is to it. So don't look for some "ulterior motives" to my posts- there just aren't any.

 

Latest 5200 high scores:

 

Berzerk- 24,000+

Wizard of Wor- 209,400.

Edited July 20, 2009 by CV Gus

[kool kitty89]

Don't forget, there is more than technology involved in a system's success: if tech specs were all that mattered, then the SMS would've pounded the NES.

 

Which it did, in Europe. (and South America)

[VectorGamer]

My example of Defender is exactly what you are speaking to. Look at what a hit it was, and with the exception of the fighting games (which came years later) Defender has arguably the toughest control scheme out there. I doubt anyone picked that one up immediately.

 

Defender had a more sophisticated control scheme than Pac-Man, but was it any more that Asteroids? Almost the same number of controls...

 

While the controls in Defender where unique at the time, the difference is that the controls did what they were supposed to do. If the player had to compromise with sub par controls, the game would not have been a hit.

[VectorGamer]

All I'm trying to get across here is that just because you might like one system better than another does NOT mean you don't like that other system.

 

Actually, even if this wasn't so I don't think you or anyone else should have to be apologetic about it.

 

Well, at the Digital Press, it turns out that a good number of games HAVE been put on the 5200- in fact, there are so many, why didn't anyone ever point out this large number? In my earlier such post, I would then have simply stated that for after-years support, both are now supported by too many games to call- including Gateway to Apshai for the 5200 (thus, the CV advantage with RPGs is much less than I had thought).

 

In my controversial thread regarding "if you could only own one home console with the highest number/quality arcade ports" the ColecoVision and 5200 had the same number of native ports (not counting home brews). Rating these games using videogamecritic.net and the Classic Home Video Game book by Weiss gave the ColecoVision the edge. Now, I said games...throw in the fact that the ColecoVision's controllers are better then that becomes the better system.

 

Whoops...I guess this thread is about to be locked! : ]

[jetset]

Defender had a more sophisticated control scheme than Pac-Man, but was it any more that Asteroids? Almost the same number of controls...

 

While the controls in Defender where unique at the time, the difference is that the controls did what they were supposed to do. If the player had to compromise with sub par controls, the game would not have been a hit.

 

Please explain.

The controls for the 5200 as well did what they were supposed to do. The problem was the reliability of the fire buttons. Like Defender, with the 5200 controllers you were either a good enough gamer to adapt quickly, or though practice, or you sucked at the game and blamed the controller or the setup. I don't get on a classic gaming site how so many people just aren't good at playing video games and blame the controllers. That's like having a bad game at bowling and saying the sun got in your eyes.

[AtariLeaf]

Defender had a more sophisticated control scheme than Pac-Man, but was it any more that Asteroids? Almost the same number of controls...

 

While the controls in Defender where unique at the time, the difference is that the controls did what they were supposed to do. If the player had to compromise with sub par controls, the game would not have been a hit.

 

Please explain.

The controls for the 5200 as well did what they were supposed to do. The problem was the reliability of the fire buttons. Like Defender, with the 5200 controllers you were either a good enough gamer to adapt quickly, or though practice, or you sucked at the game and blamed the controller or the setup. I don't get on a classic gaming site how so many people just aren't good at playing video games and blame the controllers. That's like having a bad game at bowling and saying the sun got in your eyes.

 

Happens in sports. Everytime a hockey player misses his shot you see him stare perplexed at his stick.

[VectorGamer]

Please explain.

The controls for the 5200 as well did what they were supposed to do. The problem was the reliability of the fire buttons. Like Defender, with the 5200 controllers you were either a good enough gamer to adapt quickly, or though practice, or you sucked at the game and blamed the controller or the setup. I don't get on a classic gaming site how so many people just aren't good at playing video games and blame the controllers. That's like having a bad game at bowling and saying the sun got in your eyes.

 

OK, I agree - the 5200 controllers did what they were supposed to do and that was not self-center and therefore that makes them inferior.

 

Bowling makes a good analogy. Now, wouldn't you use the ball that's going to give you the best score, like a round one (aka DB9 self-centering joystick), or a ball shaped like an egg (the 5200 stock controller) that has the potential of giving you a lower score? If you get used to the egg, it will do the same thing in going down the lane and striking the pins. But, I think the majority will stick with the round ball and forgo trying to learn something new especially when there's a low payoff.

[Herbarius]

Don't forget, there is more than technology involved in a system's success: if tech specs were all that mattered, then the SMS would've pounded the NES.

 

Which it did, in Europe. (and South America)

 

Errr.... No? At least not here in Germany.

Maybe the SMS was stronger here than in America, but the NES was more popular nevertheless.

[jetset]

Please explain.

The controls for the 5200 as well did what they were supposed to do. The problem was the reliability of the fire buttons. Like Defender, with the 5200 controllers you were either a good enough gamer to adapt quickly, or though practice, or you sucked at the game and blamed the controller or the setup. I don't get on a classic gaming site how so many people just aren't good at playing video games and blame the controllers. That's like having a bad game at bowling and saying the sun got in your eyes.

 

OK, I agree - the 5200 controllers did what they were supposed to do and that was not self-center and therefore that makes them inferior.

 

 

 

I...don't recall them as being advertised as self centering? Do you have any screenshots of ads from back then? Or did they advertise 360 degrees of motion?

 

Don't blame the tool blame the user. The controllers are far from inferior. That's just opinion. Really, if you can't play well enough to use the controller I would suggest an easier system. Stick with a CV would be my suggestion. I like both systems, and am good enough to enjoy both. I don't let my lack of skill hamper me from playing.

[Joeyray]

I would be willing to bet that (in most cases not every) if 5200 owners owned an aftermarket stick (AKA Wico\ Command control) they would experience higher scores than using the stock Joy sticks. At least this was my experience having used both back in the 80's.

[VectorGamer]

 

OK, I agree - the 5200 controllers did what they were supposed to do and that was not self-center and therefore that makes them inferior.

 

I...don't recall them as being advertised as self centering? Do you have any screenshots of ads from back then? Or did they advertise 360 degrees of motion?

 

Don't blame the tool blame the user. The controllers are far from inferior. That's just opinion. Really, if you can't play well enough to use the controller I would suggest an easier system. Stick with a CV would be my suggestion. I like both systems, and am good enough to enjoy both. I don't let my lack of skill hamper me from playing.

 

Huh? Re-read the above - I stated that they "did what they were supposed (or "designed") to do and that was to not self-center.

 

So, what you're telling me,us (whatever) is that the majority of us that achieve lower scores with the 5200 controller is because that we are lackluster players?

 

I have an idea...let's play a set of tennis. I will use the tennis racquet that has strings and you can use either the racquet with the hole the size of a melon or the one with the rope handle. Surely, after you get used to either one of these racquets you're bound to win a game or three...

[jetset]

So, what you're telling me,us (whatever) is that the majority of us that achieve lower scores with the 5200 controller is because that we are lackluster players?

 

 

Yes, 100% absolutely yes. Nothing to be ashamed of really.

 

 

I have an idea...let's play a set of tennis. I will use the tennis racquet that has strings and you can use either the racquet with the hole the size of a melon or the one with the rope handle. Surely, after you get used to either one of these racquets you're bound to win a game or three...

 

Wow great analogy! Oh, no wait...not even close. You're comparing a broken tennis racket. A better comparison would be a double sized one. At first, your arm would be too weak to even swing it, (unless you have good arm strength already) but after a few games you adapt, and never go back to the smaller wimpy racket.

Yes..much better comparison.

[VectorGamer]

So, what you're telling me,us (whatever) is that the majority of us that achieve lower scores with the 5200 controller is because that we are lackluster players?

 

 

Yes, 100% absolutely yes. Nothing to be ashamed of really.

 

 

I have an idea...let's play a set of tennis. I will use the tennis racquet that has strings and you can use either the racquet with the hole the size of a melon or the one with the rope handle. Surely, after you get used to either one of these racquets you're bound to win a game or three...

 

Wow great analogy! Oh, no wait...not even close. You're comparing a broken tennis racket. A better comparison would be a double sized one. At first, your arm would be too weak to even swing it, (unless you have good arm strength already) but after a few games you adapt, and never go back to the smaller wimpy racket.

Yes..much better comparison.

 

Well, the racquet with the melon hole is aerodynamic in design while the rope handle racquet is designed to reduce repititive motion injuries. Neither of them are broken and are designed for the professional tennis player in mind.

Edited July 22, 2009 by rmaerz

[atariksi]

So, what you're telling me,us (whatever) is that the majority of us that achieve lower scores with the 5200 controller is because that we are lackluster players?

 

 

Yes, 100% absolutely yes. Nothing to be ashamed of really.

 

 

I have an idea...let's play a set of tennis. I will use the tennis racquet that has strings and you can use either the racquet with the hole the size of a melon or the one with the rope handle. Surely, after you get used to either one of these racquets you're bound to win a game or three...

 

Wow great analogy! Oh, no wait...not even close. You're comparing a broken tennis racket. A better comparison would be a double sized one. At first, your arm would be too weak to even swing it, (unless you have good arm strength already) but after a few games you adapt, and never go back to the smaller wimpy racket.

Yes..much better comparison.

 

Well, the racquet with the melon hole is aerodynamic in design while the rope handle racquet is designed to reduce repititive motion injuries. Neither of them are broken and are designed for the professional tennis player in mind.

 

Both machines have controllers that could be better. Atari DB9 digital joystick (CX-40 or similar) is the best. Use analog to digital conversion type of circuit to connect Atari digital joystick and make A5200 gaming better -- same for CV. CV sucks in other aspects.

[kool kitty89]

Don't forget, there is more than technology involved in a system's success: if tech specs were all that mattered, then the SMS would've pounded the NES.

 

Which it did, in Europe. (and South America)

 

Errr.... No? At least not here in Germany.

Maybe the SMS was stronger here than in America, but the NES was more popular nevertheless.

 

I meant overall (including UK as well), wasn't the SNES also stronger in Germany than the Mega Drive? (which from the figures I've seen, also outsold the SNES overall. (though I don't think "pounded" would necessarily be appropriate in either case)

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

Please explain.

The controls for the 5200 as well did what they were supposed to do. The problem was the reliability of the fire buttons. Like Defender, with the 5200 controllers you were either a good enough gamer to adapt quickly, or though practice, or you sucked at the game and blamed the controller or the setup. I don't get on a classic gaming site how so many people just aren't good at playing video games and blame the controllers. That's like having a bad game at bowling and saying the sun got in your eyes.

 

OK, I agree - the 5200 controllers did what they were supposed to do and that was not self-center and therefore that makes them inferior.

 

 

 

I...don't recall them as being advertised as self centering? Do you have any screenshots of ads from back then? Or did they advertise 360 degrees of motion?

 

Don't blame the tool blame the user. The controllers are far from inferior. That's just opinion. Really, if you can't play well enough to use the controller I would suggest an easier system. Stick with a CV would be my suggestion. I like both systems, and am good enough to enjoy both. I don't let my lack of skill hamper me from playing.

 

 

you dont recall them being advertised as self centering? um, joystick are supposed to self center themselves! if they dont, thier obviously defective and "stick". major flaw in the 5200 controller. I wonder why they never fixed it. coleco obviously upgraded thier contollers. why didnt atari?

[Bryan]

We look at consoles much differently today than we did back then so the 5200 seems worse in hindsight than it did while on store shelves. Because videogame technology was still novel you tended to accept someone else's vision of progress and adapt to it.

 

Today, game consoles are not novel and people don't think twice about slamming designs that took years and millions to develop. Back then people just looked at the shiny console and said "OOoooooo...."

 

Can you imagine telling someone in 1982 that

I think I would have barfed.

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

We look at consoles much differently today than we did back then so the 5200 seems worse in hindsight than it did while on store shelves. Because videogame technology was still novel you tended to accept someone else's vision of progress and adapt to it.

 

Today, game consoles are not novel and people don't think twice about slamming designs that took years and millions to develop. Back then people just looked at the shiny console and said "OOoooooo...."

 

Can you imagine telling someone in 1982 that

I think I would have barfed.

 

 

anything is possible. Ive seen video of people wiping thier butts with $100 bills!