PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 On the priority conflict thing that needs players OVER playfield with some bits set in the hardware register which confuses it into not ORing but just producing black? If it does work over the playfield then i;d end up limited to 4 pixel wide black areas. Better to shove it underneath if you've got to use players to do it anyway may as well let the foregrounds higher res be the mask. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Just look at the Priority bitsetting chart in the hardware manual. If you combine 2 or more bitsettings, you get black where conflicts arise. An example might be PRIOR=0C, which should give black at any place where Players coincide with PF2 or PF3. Also remember, if you set the "5th Player enable" bit, missiles get treated as PF3 for Priority selection so you can utilize them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) Just look at the Priority bitsetting chart in the hardware manual. If you combine 2 or more bitsettings, you get black where conflicts arise. An example might be PRIOR=0C, which should give black at any place where Players coincide with PF2 or PF3. Also remember, if you set the "5th Player enable" bit, missiles get treated as PF3 for Priority selection so you can utilize them too. Yeah but, if I want to use 2 players max to make the black (else the rest of the screen becomes impossible) then all the black would be 4 pixel wide. yeah? At least without some messing around with the data for the players to get the correct PFs to make the black and that means redrawing them all really. And also like you said I'd likely get black where I don't want it in other instances. I've seen a few people mention this "black for free" thing and also most of them saying hmm it's never really been used. I can see why I can actually think of some uses for it but reaaaaly not for Fist. Basically, if I'm using 2 players to make the black it's way simpler to put them behind the playfield. Pete Edited July 25, 2009 by PeteD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The easiest solution for the jumps and "roll over" jumps ist clearly there : sheer char movement for those. Doing the shapes in the background via PMg is fair enough for this short movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I just thought of a problem with the method I've come up with so far. Most if not all of the PMGs will be used beneath the playfield to add large areas of colour. This will become a problem when the guys go over those areas because the big blocks of black beneath them will show over those "transparent but with PMGs" areas and you'll see them as welll big black squares. I'll need to come up with a way of masking them to at least close to the players size. I may need to use the missiles for this which means they cant then be used for extra background detail. It's either that or use all the colours (yellow, black, white, red, pink) yellow as 0 then the others. That then gives me all the PMGs free for messing with the background. I can then use the black as replacement for the dark grey (maybe some stippling in some small areas too). That way I don;t have to worry about the guys at all (apart from some char sized clash) and can use some colour changes and all the PMGs for bacgkround colour changes. It'll get there eventually but this is why I eventually want to write my own editor if I take on any more stuff. I would've included a way to switch stuff around easily between chars and pmgs so I could just say ok, no longer 2 black players, they're now chars. I've had another look at g2f and it's just not for me, not intuitive enough but that's just me, I'm sure it's a great app (and from the gallery it certainly produces results) Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Pretty simple really. Reduce use of PMGs lower in the background. Although CPU will be a premium if 2 big softsprites are being rendered, there's still plenty of time for a few DLIs that sort out colour/pos/priority changes throughout the screen. Another thing - if someone does a port/conversion/clone/whatever of a given game, it's not 100% necessary to use the exact same backgrounds. Nothing wrong with putting some original material in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 If I reduce the PMG usage in the lower background I'd have nowhere near enough colours. I think something along the lines of my last method explanation would work better. Also, yeah if anyone else want's to take this on and use different I'd love to play it Fist was the reason I bought my C64. Me personally I want to do it as close to the C64 one as I can, just to prove it IS possible After that (if I still have the will to live lol) I'll use the code for software sprites, collision detection, game logic etc and try to do a 4 player version, just then it wont be able to cross the guys into the background are. But hey, thats what IK+ does Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 Here I am again. Hello PeteD, don't worry about this and don't dream with Ninja, have nicer dreams!... What I said yesterday work. I've been watching that screen, with a two player game it's simple, with the use of 2 players quadruple size(white and Red for their clothes) under PFs. In the ground graphics you don't need to use Backgr. colour, only some pixels here and there, but little ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) Here I am again. Hello PeteD, don't worry about this and don't dream with Ninja, have nicer dreams!... What I said yesterday work. I've been watching that screen, with a two player game it's simple, with the use of 2 players quadruple size(white and Red for their clothes) under PFs. In the ground graphics you don't need to use Backgr. colour, only some pixels here and there, but little ones. Please make it on G2F for me The screen you were looking at with the Buddha is pretty simple compared to the one I've been working on so will just drop into place once I've got this stuff worked out but I still don't think that one will be easy using the red/white players. Anyway I have 0 experience with G2F and don't know as much about A8 capabilities as the rest of you guys and I can't take the time to learn yet another graphics app/editor atm. I'd rather code a quick one of my own that does things how I want then I don't have to get frustrated with it.. Pete *edit* Speaking of last ninja, that's even easier than this damned Fist background to work out as you can do the ninjas as players easily because they're so small. The masking isn't a problem, the colours only need changing a bit by moving some background around slightly. Simple but the overall game engine/editor/etc is a lot more complex. Edited July 25, 2009 by PeteD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 Sorry, I'm on streets in Public Internet Acess place and had to "recharge battery (PAY)". So returning, you still has two Missiles (White and Red) and more two Players Missiles (more two colours) to put on graphics. And above the area players get,DLIs and some more 3/4 Pms. do all the painting artwork. I only need more 3/4 days, because this weekend it's totally impossible for me. I'm using PAINT to put the screens n 3 colour+1colour(the Background - where will put PMs. colours) and then Load in G2f to do it, put the 5th colour and the DLIs. As for the number of chars, no problem, because G2F use only 0 to 39 each line (and 128 to 255 on 5th colour), so in all lines you are free to use the codes greater than 40 untill 127 to the Pink and Black/Darkest grey PFs. PF0 (Black/Darkest Grey) and PF1 (Pink) to use on Players it's the solution. You will not have colour clash with the background (these can be in all cells). You only have to put software sprites chars codes in all lines and the same in each line. That how people do "nimal Partyand other games this days, just see the conversation in "Software prites" Thread. I only want by now a thing from you: On the 1st page of this Thread in the screen of the inlay paper with the movements of player, can you put all ina .BMP file. Better if they are in a 320x200 screen and send it to my mail: atarijosepereira@sapo.pt I'm not a very good one with artistic programs. I just want to see something on them. Also, if you don't mind, with this I'll get your Mail adress. So, that I can sent you the final screens and can change things. Greetings. José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I only want by now a thing from you: On the 1st page of this Thread in the screen of the inlay paper with the movements of player, can you put all ina .BMP file. Better if they are in a 320x200 screen and send it to my mail: atarijosepereira@sapo.ptI'm not a very good one with artistic programs. I just want to see something on them. Also, if you don't mind, with this I'll get your Mail adress. So, that I can sent you the final screens and can change things. Greetings. José Pereira. Not sure what you're asking me to do but if it's anything to do with graphics I can't help. I HATE graphics apps with a passion and only ever just write my own to do things I need. If you're looking for all the animation frames of the sprites? I'm trying to get those from someone now and I'll pass them on when I do. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 Or someone else. See the Fist inlay card I put on this Thread. Put all tat 14 animation of player in a single screen .BMP in a 320x200 format. Someone can help on this. José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Or someone else.See the Fist inlay card I put on this Thread. Put all tat 14 animation of player in a single screen .BMP in a 320x200 format. Someone can help on this. José Pereira. I've sent you some of the sprite frames STE'86 just ripped from the C64 version for me. Say thanks to him cuz it was a lot of work Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Looking at those screen shots makes me wonder how they can get all those onscreen colors. I have to run the game myself to look. I know they probably used combinations of player/missile graphics, display list interrupts, and "OR-Overlaying" for more colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Who where what? lol Sorry, there isn't an A8 version of it yet, hence this thread. The screenshots are from the C64 version and are standard fare on that machine. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Yeah, sorry about that, did not read all the posts. But I know of a few tricks that probably can give us a few things close to C64 colors. One is use the 3 color OR-Overlay trick, 2 players + 2 missiles for each Karate Guy. Would be limited to 10 pixel wide though. Of course use the DLIs to increase the screen colors and use Antic 4 modes for 5 colors. There is also the trick of quickly alternating between 2 colors during each VBI. There would be a noticeable flicker if you use bright colors. One last ideal is use APAC technique for the background, thats if you don't mind 80 pixel wide thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Don't worry, it's all under control. Read the boring bits of the thread too Lots of solutions to the different backgrounds. Coding has begun (although quite slowly atm while I work on some other stuff at the same time). Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Pete, good to here... (ok... now I have to write PeteD... ) as WUSDN got it's final update for MADS I will finish Gridrunner soon and return to Beyond Evil then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted July 26, 2009 Author Share Posted July 26, 2009 Hello all. I'm back. PeteD I don't understand it was you that send me the mail. I have to enter in AtariAge first. I will put this here, probably someone can fix them, and write wich sprite shape correspondant joystick/trigger. I am 100% certain that things will work if done on my way. I've been almost all night with that screen shot. Things are getting where I want. Tomorrow you will have that screen, if not all done, I'll send you G2F done untill the last line player reaches, so that you can code the masks and software sprite movements. José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Hey José, Yeah I sent them to you As I said STE'86 (who joined the forum recently) ripped them from the c64 version and put them together onto bitmaps for running through a grabber later, so everyone thank him for his hard work (presuming you care about an A8 Fist that is). As for asking for the sprites and the joystick moves, well dude, you've got to start understanding there aren't a lot of people who have the knowledge to do stuff like that in fact as you don't seem able, currently I'm the only one who can do it and code up a demo/game. If you can't do the code for it then I'd be careful taking up too much time on working on the background in G2F because I for one won't use anything that doesn't adhere to the way I'm writing my code or has changes that I don't think are necessary. Don't take what I say the wrong way, I'm not saying "don't do anything you're wasting your time", it's good to see people willing to do what they can to help but unless you're going to liaise with whoever is going to write the code before going off and coming up with your own methods you're likely to find your time HAS been wasted. If you're producing something that works as well as you think, fantastic it will certainly save other people a lot of time and effort. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted July 26, 2009 Author Share Posted July 26, 2009 To be honest I'd barely looked at that screen as it didn't seem that much of a problem. You've got to work on the most complex one first then the others should be a lot easier to do afterwards. I'm talking about the 1st one you posted at the top of the thread. But please try that 1st one, if you can do that and allow free movement of the players over it, without any clash then I'll start coding the game tomorrow Pete I start this screens artwork according to what you said on this Thread. José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 (edited) This may be very simplistic, but what about doing the bottom of the screen in Antic E for BIG software sprites and the top in char mode for extra color... Then where the characters need to overlap the background, limit that to a small overlap and do it with PMG alone - so just heads and feet (you could allow flicker if you like to make it more flexible) etc... Then re-use the PMG further up the screen for colors!?! It would be a fairly simple way of providing the best effect without a huge overhead, and a simple bit of logic to control it vs the other byzantine methods described further up this thread... sTeVE Edited July 26, 2009 by Jetboot Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 This may be very simplistic, but what about doing the bottom of the screen in Antic E for BIG software sprites and the top in char mode for extra color... Then where the characters need to overlap the background, limit that to a small overlap and do it with PMG alone - so just heads and feet (you could allow flicker if you like to make it more flexible) etc... Then re-use the PMG further up the screen for colors!?! It would be a fairly simple way of providing the best effect without a huge overhead, and a simple bit of logic to control it vs the other byzantine methods described further up this thread... sTeVE I've thought of all kinds of methods other than the ones I've talked about here and the problem with them all is they compromise in some way. I want to make it as close as possible to the c64 one, if that just means more hard work for me I'm fine with that I'm pretty sure when the layout of colours is sorted out (I've barely scratched the surface of what the A8 can do in my reasonings yet) then the actual softsprite routines etc are no more difficult than any other game. If I can't do it, give me a smack and tell me to listen up next time Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Hello all.I'm back. PeteD I don't understand it was you that send me the mail. I have to enter in AtariAge first. I will put this here, probably someone can fix them, and write wich sprite shape correspondant joystick/trigger. I am 100% certain that things will work if done on my way. I've been almost all night with that screen shot. Things are getting where I want. Tomorrow you will have that screen, if not all done, I'll send you G2F done untill the last line player reaches, so that you can code the masks and software sprite movements. José Pereira. thx for that... and international karate does copied the gfx and changed only the head gfx little bit? and system 3 did not get any trouble by melborne house??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I'm sure I read somewhere that they did think of suing System 3. Also this was posted in an article on C64.com "However, System 3 then faced a lengthy court battle with arcade publishers Data East, who claimed System 3 had ripped off their game Karate Champ. After a year of counter battles, the American court granted the victory to System 3, which had implications for arcade publishers as a whole. The argument was that karate is karate and no game publisher could copyright that for themselves. System 3 also had to fight off suggestions from Melbourne House that International Karate had also ripped off Way of the Exploding Fist, but again this proved in System 3's favour." Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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