Lode Runner XE color question

[AtariLeaf]

On my XEGS, Lode runner XE has a pinkish background with green bricks and ladders. On my 800XL the colors look fine. However all other carts on the XE seem to have the correct colors. Any explanation for this or suggestions?

 

EDIT - the colors for lode runner are the same on the XEGS regardless of using the RF port or the monitor port directly to my commodore 1082

Edited August 25, 2009 by AtariLeaf

[Kr0tki]

It's NTSC artifacting. See also this topic.

[AtariLeaf]

It's NTSC artifacting. See also this topic.

 

Ok thanks. Some of the explanation is over my head. Is there a "dummy" version of whats going on for guys like me?

Just strange that it seems to only happen on the XEGS but on the XL is fine.

[Kr0tki]

OK,

 

Certain patterns of high-resolution pixels are interpreted by an NTSC TV-set as colours - a feature called artifacting. It allows to add colours to otherwise monochrome displays, and Lode Runner takes advantage of it. However due to some internal changes made by the manufacturer over the years, different Atari models produce TV signal a little differently - and it makes those artifacting colours different on each model. So the difference in colours is a sad, but expected effect.

[AtariLeaf]

OK,

 

Certain patterns of high-resolution pixels are interpreted by an NTSC TV-set as colours - a feature called artifacting. It allows to add colours to otherwise monochrome displays, and Lode Runner takes advantage of it. However due to some internal changes made by the manufacturer over the years, different Atari models produce TV signal a little differently - and it makes those artifacting colours different on each model. So the difference in colours is a sad, but expected effect.

 

Thanks Kr0tki. That would explain why the 800xl and xegs display the game differently. From the list in the other thread you provided, I may have to expect the same from my choplifter cart.

[Tempest]

Ok this is a question I've always wondered about. Which is the 'correct' colors? Did the game programmers design the game with the XL colors in mind or the XE? Oh and if Warerat ever finishes his 800 compatibility mod, what colors will the 800 display when artificating?

 

Tempest

[AtariLeaf]

Well for the lode runner, if they designed it with the XE's pink background and green bricks in mind they should have their heads examined.

[+bf2k+]

(never mind...)

 

 

Edited August 25, 2009 by bf2k+

[Bryan]

Ok this is a question I've always wondered about. Which is the 'correct' colors? Did the game programmers design the game with the XL colors in mind or the XE? Oh and if Warerat ever finishes his 800 compatibility mod, what colors will the 800 display when artificating?

 

Tempest

 

It's hard to say. The colors change with each revision of the A8 video circuitry. The reason is because of phase shift. The color and luminance go through separate circuits and are combined right before going to the monitor port. Each signal takes a certain amount of time to go through its circuit, and since the circuits are somewhat different in the 800, 1200XL, 800XL, XE, etc... then there's small differences of the time relationship between the color and luminance signals at the port (a few nanoseconds, much less than a pixel). NTSC video is sensitive to small variations in phase, so the colors change.

 

Remember that the TV is locked to the colorburst phase which comes from the chromanance (color) signal but artifact colors are generated by rapid oscillations in luminance. That's why with normal (non-artifact) graphics these minor phase differences have no noticeable effect.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Bryan

[Thorsten Günther]

Ok this is a question I've always wondered about. Which is the 'correct' colors?

 

That's a good one

 

There is no such thing as "correct" colour artifacting, that's why the backronym for NTSC is "Never Twice the Same Colour". As a European, I was stunned to find out some day that Mr. Spock's make-up looked green on many American TV sets, which was explained to the viewers later in ST:TOS explained it with his blood being green (yeah right, and the skin of earth vertebrates is red). In fact, his make-up was yellow.

 

Add: if you want "correct" colours, you should look out for a version of Lode Runner that has been patched to Graphics 15.

 

 

Thorsten

Edited August 25, 2009 by Thorsten Günther

[Bryan]

Ok this is a question I've always wondered about. Which is the 'correct' colors?

 

That's a good one

 

There is no such thing as "correct" colour artifacting, that's why the backronym for NTSC is "Never Twice the Same Colour". As a European, I was stunned to find out some day that Mr. Spock's make-up looked green on many American TV sets, which was explained to the viewers later in ST:TOS explained it with his blood being green (yeah right, and the skin of earth vertebrates is red). In fact, his make-up was yellow.

 

 

Thorsten

 

When I was young, I remember having to adjust the TINT knob on the TV from time to time if the colors were off. Eventually, everything improved to the point where you never had to. NTSC was just ahead of its time.

[Kjmann]

Ok this is a question I've always wondered about. Which is the 'correct' colors? Did the game programmers design the game with the XL colors in mind or the XE? Oh and if Warerat ever finishes his 800 compatibility mod, what colors will the 800 display when artificating?

 

Tempest

 

 

Lode Runner's Correct colors are:

 

Blue for the Bricks.

The top of the bad guys are Red

and the background is pink. ( a quirk when porting an Apple Game to the atari )

[ZylonBane]

There is no such thing as "correct" colour artifacting, that's why the backronym for NTSC is "Never Twice the Same Colour".

Wrong. The reason that backronym exists has absolutely nothing to do with artifact colors, which are an entirely unintended side-effect of NTSC color encoding.

[Shannon]

I would say that the best way to determine the "intended" color is to look at the pictures that came with the box for the game. (Assuming they didn't use pictures from another computer version).

[Thorsten Günther]

Ok this is a question I've always wondered about. Which is the 'correct' colors? Did the game programmers design the game with the XL colors in mind or the XE? Oh and if Warerat ever finishes his 800 compatibility mod, what colors will the 800 display when artificating?

 

 

Lode Runner's Correct colors are:

 

Blue for the Bricks.

The top of the bad guys are Red

and the background is pink. ( a quirk when porting an Apple Game to the atari )

 

The colourized (Gr. 15) version doesn't have a pink background (a black one is used instead), but they chose the other three colours (white for Lode Runner and ladders, red for the top half of the baddies and parts of the drums and blue for the bricks) according to your description. So does the colourized version of Drol.

 

 

Thorsten

[AtariLeaf]

Bumping an older thread of mine to ask a similar question. I picked up a copy of Rescue on Fractalus on cart for the XE. I tried it on two XEGS's and an 800XL and they all show the title screen and alien world background as green. When I look up gameplay videos on youtube of the same XE version of the game, the backgrounds are brownish in color. Only one youtube video shows up the green background. I also remember my coco version decades ago using the brownish colors for the planet. So green would seem like the wrong color although the other colors on my other games on my XL/XE systems show up correct. Is this the artifacting thing creeping its ugly head again? Is this the same situation as the Lode Runner cart I mentioned in the original post? They're both XE carts.

 

Mine looks similar to this:

 

 

Most others look like this:

 

 

Why the color differences?

Edited July 7, 2010 by AtariLeaf

[ZylonBane]

I take it you're not old enough to remember Tint knobs.

[AtariLeaf]

I'm 40. I remember tint knobs. Its not that. I've tried a tv and though my computer using an easycap device. Same colors on 3 completely different machines.

[Kr0tki]

It's not the tint knob, your colors are correct; that's not an artifacting issue either. The reason is, NTSC and PAL Ataris produce different colours; the mountains look brownish on PAL and greenish on NTSC. Most of Youtube videos are recorded either from PAL machines, or from a flawed emulator like Atari800Win, which is typically configured to use a PAL palette.

[AtariLeaf]

It's not the tint knob, your colors are correct; that's not an artifacting issue either. The reason is, NTSC and PAL Ataris produce different colours; the mountains look brownish on PAL and greenish on NTSC. Most of Youtube videos are recorded either from PAL machines, or from a flawed emulator like Atari800Win, which is typically configured to use a PAL palette.

 

Ah ok thanks. I didn't realize many of the youtube videos were emulated. I know the fellow with the green background used actual hardware.

[ZylonBane]

It's not the tint knob, your colors are correct

There's also, IIRC, a tint knob of sorts inside the Atari itself... a potentiometer that can be twiddled to adjust the chroma output. Not all Ataris are set the same. And then, yes, lots of emulators out there all using slightly different palette files.

[Kr0tki]

... But then, you can't actually adjust the hue of RoF mountains with that knob. RoF mountains are the same on all NTSC Ataris.

[ZylonBane]

... But then, you can't actually adjust the hue of RoF mountains with that knob.

Uhhh... yes you can.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/120805-atari-800-color-burst-crystal/

Edited July 9, 2010 by ZylonBane

[Kr0tki]

Uh-uh.

 

Colors of hue 1 always have chroma equal to that of the colorburst signal, so they always show as the yellow-green colour. This is not exactly a tint knob, you know.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Kr0tki

[_The Doctor__]

I beg to differ, there is a correct artifact... see the flag is red white and blue. and well correct artifacting makes it look like the USA flag. And also drol as well as jingle disk look scary on the machines that have the wrong artifact cap. The cap in question is c53 on an xl. I have performed this mod on 3 different machines and the whole family and friends cheered when jingldisk looked like it was suppose to at Christmas. Some people say the whole point is to remove artifacting... I say the point is to have artifacting when the program calls for it on purpose and to not have it when it does't. Add a Handy little switch for that. Ultima fans know what I mean, it meant so much that Lord British included a calibration step at games first running to pick what colors you saw. then it adjusted them accordingly. c53 was treated to whatever the had laying around at certain times and caused this. The video section resistors and caps all got the 'close enough' treatment from the manufacturers. Testing and acceptance should have included artifact and chroma luma mode verification. Then at least 90 percent of us would not be opening our Atari to pull signal that already exists and should be connected and Or dealing with fixing pink trees and blue fireplaces.

 

use a variable cap or something near 95nf to 100nf piggybacked at c53. I think that was the value but all the techs here should be able to test this and give you their precise values. I think mine was 97 but your mileage may vary.