Atari2600Lives Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 I was flipping through my DP guide today and saw a particular 2600 game. Music Machine downgraded from a $$$/10 to a $150.00/8 I have never heard of an 8 for $150.00 and I have never seen a game downgraded like that. music Machine is about as rare as they come (a 10 here I believe). Anyone have any thoughts on why this happens in the DP guide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oesii Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 The place to go for information about this is the DP forums, www.digitpress.com they had a discussion a couple of weeks/months? ago about this very game. I think the consensus was that it was not as rare as people thought mainly because it was coming up on eBay way too frequently. Some of the guys thought a true 10 should only come up on eBay or someother sale only like 2 or 3 times a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted October 17, 2002 Author Share Posted October 17, 2002 Thanks for the response. I try to avoid the DP forums...I have nothing against them and I buy the guide every year...it's just I would rather hang out here. Ok makes sense, but I do not agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 I have never heard of an 8 for $150.00 and I have never seen a game downgraded like that. music Machine is about as rare as they come (a 10 here I believe). Anyone have any thoughts on why this happens in the DP guide? Rarity and values are based upon the experience of the DP crew. I must say that I agree with the Music Machine figures. It turns out to be not as rare as we used to think. Just keep an eye on eBay, you will see it pop up a couple of times per year. Not as often as a Chase the Chuckwagon or Crazy Climber or Waterworld, but it's a title that can be found. Now, if you're talking about the box - that's a completely different story! If anyone happens to have one, let's talk Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariKari Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 [slight hijack] Speaking of 10s on eBay, has Video Life ever been auctioned publicly? I remember seeing a Magicard on usenet in '96 and it went for ~$800, and of course there was the recent one on eBay, but never a Video Life AFAIK. If the interview on DP: http://www.digitpress.com/index2.htm is accurate, only 20 Video Life's were ever _made_! How did you get your copy, Marco? Not price, I'm just interested in how some ppl obtain these super-rares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oesii Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 [slight hijack] Speaking of 10s on eBay, has Video Life ever been auctioned publicly? I remember seeing a Magicard on usenet in '96 and it went for ~$800, and of course there was the recent one on eBay, but never a Video Life AFAIK. I guess for Video Life we need a new category, 'This one goes to 11!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariKari Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Ha! Great movie. I think there are only 3 Air Raids in collectors hands, so what rating does that one get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 [slight hijack] Speaking of 10s on eBay, has Video Life ever been auctioned publicly? I remember seeing a Magicard on usenet in '96 and it went for ~$800, and of course there was the recent one on eBay, but never a Video Life AFAIK. Ah, the Devon Knight auction, one of those memorable moments of classic video game collecting. I think they actually went for $1400 or so, Magicard, Video Life and also Eli's Ladder (which went for like $1100, IIRC). If the interview on DP: http://www.digitpress.com/index2.htm is accurate, only 20 Video Life's were ever _made_! How did you get your copy, Marco? Not price, I'm just interested in how some ppl obtain these super-rares. For me, it's all about knowing people. If it were only about money, I'm sure I wouldn't have the collection I have today. I've been around since '94 (on the internet) and have gotten to know lots of people. I met several of them in person also at gaming conventions. Some of the early day collectors have quit collecting over the years and that's where lots of my goodies have come from. Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted October 17, 2002 Author Share Posted October 17, 2002 If Music machine comes up 2 or 3 times a year on Ebay (and I agree it does )it should be a 9. Music Machine has actually come up about 4 times this year and 2 of them where the same unit being resold). It should be at least a 9. I mean there are a ton of 8s...Music Machine can not possibly be lower than a 9 If you apply the same logic as the other carts in the DP guide got. I know I am nit pciking but 8s in the guide are ususally $50-$75 all of sudden BOOM you have an 8 in the guide at $150.00. If it was a 10 in the last guide then they should down grade slowly. Maybe a 9 this year, revisit it again after a year and maybe it deserves an 8. To go from 10-8 actually screws some people that depend on the guide for pricing their carts on Ebay, game stores, internet news group tansactions etc. etc. I had a very reputable collector offer me his music machine with manual for $1000.00 Yes, I am a hard core collector and I almost bit ...you know what ? I was depending on the guide for pricing. A 10 with no price limit makes it possible for hard core collectors to believe that this game could be worth that. Atari Age should consider pricing the carts in their rairty guide(I know it's a massive undertaking ) . The more pricing info the better. The DP guide is awesome and I recommend it. Well in either case these are my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minorleagueguy Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I like that idea, we can have our own guide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted October 18, 2002 Author Share Posted October 18, 2002 The DP guide is amazing well worth the $25 and I recommend it to everyone with any interest in retro gaming. I also feel that the more info the better, so the Atari Age online price guide would be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkoffgirl Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 To go from 10-8 actually screws some people that depend on the guide for pricing their carts on Ebay, game stores, internet news group tansactions etc. etc. That was never what the guide was intended for. The prices are prices the hardcore would expect/not mind to pay for the games, and have no relevance to eBay prices at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted October 18, 2002 Author Share Posted October 18, 2002 Punkoffgirl- I am not sure what you mean," never intended for". It's a collector's guide with prices(incidentally the best one around and really worth the $25). It guides you in cataloging your collection as well as determining what a price should be. I see a price on the web. I check the guide. it's within reason I buy. If I see it in the guide as a $$$/10 and someone wants $700 for it, then I might consider it as I am using the collector's guide to ...well...guide. I pay $700 then lo and behold the next edition has it as a $100/8 . I would feel a bit hosed by the guide. That would be a drastic drop . It hurts the person using it as a guide. These games are sometimes 20 years old. The fluctuation should not be so severe is my other point. Whatever the intention. it's a useful tool that is used not only by myself but many other collectors for the exact purpose stated. I am not really complaining about the DP guide. I love the guide. it rocks. the Music Machine pricing in particular sort of threw me for a loop. In either case I just paid $350.00 for one. One of the cheapest prices I have ever come across for one. Yes...after seeing it for $150.00 in the guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted October 18, 2002 Author Share Posted October 18, 2002 ooops. double post :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincYnoTi Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 since january, i have seen music machine on ebay ten times. here are the final bids: august: $425-davekreg april: 395-atarihunter october: 354-alex-arcade march: 270-robone april: 261-atarimonkey (mixed in with a bunch of other games) june: 202-scott.nieman june: 191 - me july: 175 - BUY IT NOW (hmm, didn't record who got that one, anyone here?) june: 139-soulonmyboots (reserve not met) april: 103-rcooper185 (auction ended early) during that same time period, there were nine quadrun on ebay, the cheapest one sold for $355 (sorry, don't feel like typing in the data on quadrun). on the basis of how often they show up on ebay, whether it is nine or ten times in a ten month period, both music machine and quadrun show up on average, once every month, and should have the same rarity. neither one should be rated a ten if they show up every month on ebay. but you can see that the going rate (or average price) of quadrun is probably twice the price of music machine. i have only seen vulture attack five times and spider maze once (lasted less than two hours in a BUY IT NOW auction), always for less than music machine. both of these deserve a rarity of ten more than music machine and quadrun. that river patrol which had a BIN of $7 was the first one i have seen since january, and was recently downgraded to a rarity=9 on atariage for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 We have talked about Music Machine for a while now (many posts on this) and we will probably downgrade it to 9. That seems to be the consensus of most people on this board. River Patrol was downgraded for the same reason. It kept showing up on eBay and it was brought up numerous times on this board. I could be wrong, but I think there have been quite a few River Patrols on eBay since January. I think you are also right about Quadrun, which may be moved to 9. It's always a delicate balance because as soon as you move something, it gets compared to other titles at that level. For example, Quadrun will be compared to other 9's, and some people may feel that some 9's should be moved to 8, and so on. Any time a title is moved, we have to consider how it will reflect on the other titles in the category it is moving to, not just where it is moving from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdstuff64 Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Ha! Great movie. I think there are only 3 Air Raids in collectors hands, so what rating does that one get? Like a 15.Maybe even 16... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeybastard Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I don't put much stock in any of the rarity listings. We all know certain carts had very limited production which makes them rare and will cost you more. Comparing rarity according to number of times on Ebay has one major problem. If each time a winning bidder turned around and sold it the day after they recieved it, the cart could be sold 150+ times (that is assuming a magical fantasy of 2 day Ebay seller shipping) in a year. If this happened to Video Life would it be less rare? The only way to judge accurate rarity is by actual production numbers vs. carts sold. Anything else is just a guess. Sometimes a really good guess but a guess. The moral of the story is: Base your willingness to pay big bucks on how much you want it or can afford it. Digital Press is a great resource but their rarity listing shouldn't make you take out a 2nd mortgage, sell a kidney, hold people's kittens for ransom, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincYnoTi Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 i've been actively searching for river patrol on ebay for a couple years. maybe i don't have the right search criteria, but i have only seen: january: 300-robone february: 52-sean kelly? cart not working april: auction ended early...all bids cancelled august: 312-wberdan (reserve not met) october 6-jkknox (BIN) i had forgot about the other ones which did not actually meet reserve price or didn't represent a sale for some reason. can anyone point to other ebay winners of river patrol this year (hold up your hand if you are one)? you really notice how hard something is to find when you are actively looking for it. i've been looking for music machine for a long time and i knew it shows up often enough that eventually i could get one for below the current average price (that's why it's called average...some are higher and some are lower). but once you have one and stop looking for it, you lose track of how hard it is to find something TODAY. for example, now that i have all the 7800 games in boxes, i couldn't tell you how hard it really is to find any of the activision or absolute titles with boxes. i just don't pay close enough attention. i think it would be real enlightening to start a "sightings" forum with a running "topic" for each rarity 9 & 10. that way you could easily track how many times each one shows up on ebay, yahoo, or whatever other source. i know ebay buyers turning around and selling the same item could skew the results slightly, but it's not like the same copy of malagai shows up on ebay three times in the same year. as for the REALLY REALLY rare items, a better measure of rarity would be the "number of confirmed copies in collector's hands". (ok, we'd really only be able to count the copies known to exist by people that read atariage). if there are too many copies of quadrun to make an accurate count, then it is obviously not in the same category as air raid, video life, or eli's ladder, for which i bet you could count on one hand the known copies of any of those titles. how about "color bar generator"? i've seen more quadrun in three months than i have color bar generator on ebay in five years. how many people have color bar generator? if anyone is sitting on a stash of these, let me know, i'm interested in buying actual production numbers may not be a good measure either. only in the case of something like video life, which the owners of the game recall actual, extremely limited, production numbers is helpful. it sets the upper limit, so we know that only 20 could possibly exist. but if 12 ended up in the garbage can and only eight are in the hands of collectors today, then "eight confirmed" is a better gauge of rarity. what if men-a-vision shows up and says one thousand of air raid were produced? will that change the fact that only three known copies are in the hands of collectors? there is a list of all known/registered cubicolor owners. i think it would be cool to see a list like that for all the rarity=10 games. and if the list gets bigger than 20 (or pick any cutoff number) for any game, then maybe it really isn't a 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari2600Lives Posted October 19, 2002 Author Share Posted October 19, 2002 It's a mistake to downgrade it to 9. someone please listen to reason. I know for a fact multiple music machines listed on Ebay have been the same cart. Davekrg for one bought the cart and now sold it to me for $354.00 on ebay. That's the EXACT SAME CART listed 3 times this year. Do not downgrade soemthing just because opportunist keep turing over the same one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincYnoTi Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 umm, if davekreg bought one in august for $425 and sold it for $354 in october, that doesn't seem like very oportunistic selling. all the more reason to have a list of "confirmed owners"... you can easily see one game changing hands but not increasing the total number confirmed in the collecting community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I now have four copies of Music Machine. Its not a ten and the most I ever paid was $300 for any of them. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Adam, now you're taking a piss, WTF do you want with 4 copies of Music Machine ? I have 2 Quadrun lab-loaner's and I think that is stupid enough. I bet 3 of them are boxed right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 It seems almost NOBODY thinks that's a 10. If anything should be downgraded, start with that one. Andeven if you're going to tinker with the ratings at this point, it should be done with VERY careful consideration. The quantities manufactured of those 9's and 10's has been pretty well established already, no? Especially when compared to anything 1-3; those could be easily shuffled around and nobody would notice. Tinkering with 9's and 10's though will have drastic effects on their value, so if the known quantity of the carts available hasn't changed I'd say leave them the way they are. A lot of the carts above this level have been rightly identified as collectors re-selling the ones they already have when they get tired of Atari collecting; I don't think we're seeing a new "influx" of previously unavailable 9's and 10's in any great degree. Just my two cents. *plink plink* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Adam, now you're taking a piss, WTF do you want with 4 copies of Music Machine ? I have 2 Quadrun lab-loaner's and I think that is stupid enough. I bet 3 of them are boxed right ? I wish. I'd trade 3 loose ones for 1 complete one. A boxed Music Machine IS A TEN. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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