Chilly Willy Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I'm reminded of the moon landing hoax conspiracy jockeys whose inability to believe in or comprehend the reach of human attainment or the capability of old computer technology makes them impervious to overwhelming physical evidence. And they can never be convinced of the truth, since they will retro-fit everything they are told or shown so that it adheres to their reality of what is possible and what is not. If NASA physically transported them to the moon and showed them the US flag planted in the soil, they would still find something to complain about. But the moon landing WAS fake! It was CG generated at Area 51 on alien computers that all modern computers are (poorly) derived from! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Its always fun to make videos for atari8warez Very impressive! It might look like magic, but SymbOS' clever design and sensible scheduling strategy is what makes this possible. For sure serial IO will be a royal pain on the Atari, but at least I can respond with a "ten task managers" demo in short order using what I have here. Just give me a day or so. Should be interesting. But the moon landing WAS fake! It was CG generated at Area 51 on alien computers that all modern computers are (poorly) derived from! LOL. For interest, this is what reminded me about it: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/230966-kubrick-and-the-apollo-moon-missions/ Edited October 25, 2014 by flashjazzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Its always fun to make videos for atari8warez :thumbsup: Have you only used an external HD, and 64kB of DRAM is enough? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Z Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 :thumbsup: Have you only used an external HD, and 64kB of DRAM is enoug I think the answer to this question is in the video itself, you can see 229KB used in the task manager, of 576K when he has the 10 task manager windows open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Obviously, but I am more concerned about what will happen when I am actually doing something, like copying a disk over SIO while I am typing away on my fav WP, will i have to wait for each key to register, will my cursor disappear or become unresponsive, will the OS be able to recover from an old style game or will I have to reboot after playing a game in between WP sessions, what if i decide to run a sieve while I do WP or try to sort my datafile, will I have to wait for ages for the code pages to move in and out of main should I decide to load, say 10 apps, and switch between them etc... For me to say a computer is able to run a preemptive multitasking OS it should be able to handle all these situations gracefully without me growing grey hair while waiting. I think the best answer to these questions will be to try it out in a live environment. It may very well put me to shame but that's something to be seen. Utter hogwash. You are being argumentative purely for the sake of being an ass. We all know we're not going to simulate a Pentium 4 class machine with GB of RAM and CPU cycles. Don't go from saying "pre-emptive multitasking will never be possible", to seeing it done, and changing your tone to "well it won't be able to handle 10 tasks in parallel without slowdown". That would be like someone calling your build of AspeQt shit purely based on a font or some non-nonsensical argument. We all know how you tolerate that. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Its always fun to make videos for atari8warez Hey - don't waste anybody's time with facts! Don't show awesome things that can be done. Just let us all be bitter and say nothing new is possible 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) Utter hogwash. You are being argumentative purely for the sake of being an ass. We all know we're not going to simulate a Pentium 4 class machine with GB of RAM and CPU cycles. Don't go from saying "pre-emptive multitasking will never be possible", to seeing it done, and changing your tone to "well it won't be able to handle 10 tasks in parallel without slowdown". That would be like someone calling your build of AspeQt shit purely based on a font or some non-nonsensical argument. We all know how you tolerate that. Ah, moving the goalposts... (ETA: not you) Edited October 26, 2014 by The Usotsuki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Folks, stop it with the philosophy debates. Think of Atari and the upgrades however you wish to; it makes no difference and it is not a winnable argument. People continuing to argue an inherently unwinnable point are exposed as just arguing for argument's sake. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 :thumbsup: Have you only used an external HD, and 64kB of DRAM is enough? An external HD and about 200KB of ram (additional 64K-512K was the standard expansion for the Amstrad CPC in the 80ies). I think the question is, if it can still run smooth on the original CPU (in this case the Z80) without any CPU or GPU accelerator hardware. Just expanding the ram in the original intended way and the mass storage possibilities doesn't kill the spirit of the old hardware IMHO. Btw, all the music is from the Atari8bit. I really like it, it is very close to the AY/YM PSG of the CPC/MSX! CU, Prodatron 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Very impressive! It might look like magic, but SymbOS' clever design and sensible scheduling strategy is what makes this possible. For sure serial IO will be a royal pain on the Atari, but at least I can respond with a "ten task managers" demo in short order using what I have here. Just give me a day or so. Should be interesting. I am looking forward to the next demo! I have no idea why it should be different on the A8. Why is serial IO a pain? In the video you can see how the process priorisation performs: Usually Conways Game of Life runs at the same continuous speed in the background (see at 3:30). As soon as you type some text in Notepad or scroll the text display etc. Conway slows down. This is done by the task scheduler, the application itself doesn't know anything about it. This is the reason why such stuff is still running fine on a 70ies CPU, and why atari8warez don't need to worry too much. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) Why is serial IO a pain? The faster we go with serial IO, the less time there is for interrupts. Typically IRQs are disabled (although the Pokey serial input ready IRQ might be used), especially if polling IO is employed. Since we have several quite long ISRs in the multitasking OS, it seems to me we'll have to either go for relatively (1x) slow serial IO, or just shut the interrupts off altogether and use very fast polled IO. PIO presents no problems at all, since there's no timing critical stuff going on to upset via ISRs. In the video you can see how the process priorisation performs: Usually Conways Game of Life runs at the same continuous speed in the background (see at 3:30). As soon as you type some text in Notepad or scroll the text display etc. Conway slows down. This is done by the task scheduler, the application itself doesn't know anything about it. This is the reason why such stuff is still running fine on a 70ies CPU, and why atari8warez don't need to worry too much. Exactly: the scheduler favours the UI, which is the highest priority task. Since the UI process manages the user's interaction with the machine, and the drawing of graphic objects, hopefully it's clear that the user interface never becomes unresponsive. The A8 GUI uses the exact same process scheduling strategy. Edited October 26, 2014 by flashjazzcat 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Don't go from saying "pre-emptive multitasking will never be possible" Where did I say that exactly?..... besides possible is one thing, usable is another... we will see how usable it will be when the time comes.... That would be like someone calling your build of AspeQt shit purely based on a font or some non-nonsensical argument. We all know how you tolerate that. You are free to say whatever you want, just like I am free to say what i think, but I don't recall me calling the GUI a shit, so please compare apples to apples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) I'm reminded of the moon landing hoax conspiracy jockeys whose inability to believe in or comprehend the reach of human attainment or the capability of old computer technology makes them impervious to overwhelming physical evidence. And they can never be convinced of the truth, since they will retro-fit everything they are told or shown so that it adheres to their reality of what is possible and what is not. If NASA physically transported them to the moon and showed them the US flag planted in the soil, they would still find something to complain about. Oh I fully believe and trust NASA, and I am also totally convinced that they will go to other planets too one day, just not with the help of an Atari 8 bit computer Edited October 27, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ripdubski Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 pre-emptive double facepalm.png Perfect. All weekend I've been getting notifications of updates to this thread. I thought wow, there is a lot of development happening. Only when I actually looked at the content it is sadly this crap again. I would like to suggest that anytime a certain person posts in this thread that it simply be ignored, no responses what so ever. That person will never be happy with this, period. No point in feeding the troll fodder. I would love to see this thread strictly about the GUI development. I for one don't care what anybody thinks is possible or useful or whatever term you want to apply. Stay on topic, and ignore the garbage content, or clip the "REPORT" button, but whatever you do, DO NOT REPLY or quote it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I don't see one thing wrong with a GUI on the 8 bit, remember also that the drives can format a drive without waiting which is something I used to do while I continue typing away on something that would eventually be saved to said disk.. Oh no problem formatting disks, that doesn't bog down the 6502 as the intelligent disk controller takes care of the formatting. The format command only waits for the drive to complete the formatting and the CPU can do other things in the meantime. The problem is when you do data transfers between the Atari and the drive as the process is not interrupt driven and requires full attention of the CPU and the peripheral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Its always fun to make videos for atari8warez Thank you Prodatron, it was indeed entertaining . The most entertaining part for me was the opening of 10 task manager windows, I agree that's how one would use the GUI because opening large apps with larger memory needs and usage, and swapping those in and out of main memory is probably reserved for machines, well, with a little bit more oomph! The game running in the background was also entertaining, even though I have no idea what was that about, moving particles were interesting. The video playback was not bad either, maybe except for the occasional white bands when Z80 needed to breath.. Playing the video from the hard disk was awesome just not within the realm of the lowly SIO port on the Atari. I think you answered all of my questions with this video, I'd say I am truly ashamed P.S: I am also truly impressed by FJC's latest reaction and reply to the thread, I was almost sure I would get shit as usual but I guess he now understands that my comments don't mean to diminish his coding abilities, he has all it takes to tackle this project, I am just not as hopeful about the hardware. Edited October 27, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) a fully usable GUI will happen for the standard Atari 130XE machines, slower on floppy and faster on pbi, I have faith it will happen.... Years ago I stated that digitised sound could be played at the same time graphics were moving on the screen and had major put downs and trash talked and was told I was full of well you get the idea... I also stated the 8 bit was used for the original tron sounds and was told I was halucinating... well guess what.. I spent a fair bit of time playing thru levels of what was an up and coming game... and guess what.. It was disk based... it was on the Atari 8 bit.... it was brilliant.... and... it required no special hardware at that time... Yes it was Space Harrier. It was then changed to make the sound a little better and recoded for cartridge( sure does makes level changes fast that way, and few other things easier ) So it was impossible till it was seen by all......because Chris did not listen to all the people saying it was impossible.... The right combination to a succesful Atari 8 bit GUI will be found and will be done... and I would not be surprised if it had sound and color one day without the need for 200 gigahertz video gizmo modatron installed... If someone is determined enough to do it... it will happen.. the secrets and tricks forgotten and new will come together... I personally believe the person with the drive and determination to make this happen is FlashJazzCat. The project will proceed under his capable coding and tutelage. It will be ready when it is ready. Just like the other more than a decade in the making projects that have knocked the socks off the community before...as I ended previous arguements of the kind seen on this particular thread.. ...nough said! Edited October 27, 2014 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) been using a hard drive since before 1986 actually but just pointing out that the Atari has both expensive and cheap hard drives and cartridges these days... and as for video... well Mr.Atari already has that nailed on the Atari 8 bit... so why all the critical talk.. It's all possible...That is the Joy of Atari 8 bit machines. Your post made it in just before mine warez Edited October 27, 2014 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Here are some links to the actual files and available walk thru concerning the earlier slashdot posting. What a wonderful system Mr. Gates ripped off lol http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/index.html http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/xerox/alto/ Remember to follow the specs for the Alto and the Alto II... they both ran about the same starting at a base 64k... expandable to 256.. with different versions being 8, 16, and 32 bit intermingled... and usage of individual subsets like 26 bit timings...my lord it sounds like an Atari Jaguar.. lol just kidding. Edited October 27, 2014 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) As I said before Doc, I will gracefully accept that I was wrong when I see it happen, besides, from the beginning to this day I never used the word "impossible", just said "impractical". People seem to ignore the difference... All the power to FJC and if he can overcome all the shortcomings of the hardware and put out a usable GUI I would just bow to his coding prowess and determination, simple as that. Edited October 27, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) I didn't know you were the sole entity to define what practical is.... ah the splitting of hair... I had a big dissertation on this point typed in and posted and have realized I am being sucked into the atari8warezone.. so I have deleted it and would refer others to the above posting on the Alto and all the GUI goodness it provided in the early 70's Edited October 27, 2014 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 "LOUD NOISES!" - Brick, "Anchorman" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Fuck this. It's more about the jealous c**t who's trying to destroy the thread than it is about the project. Even hidden posts are turning it into a chaos of bullshit, and responding of course makes it worse. Moderate it or just lock it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1k Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 so..lock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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