jacobus Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Please don't lock - this is my favourite thread! Let's just have all of the people interested in this project simply ignore the troll. As Jon says, he's a jealous little c**t and is only looking for attention. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) so..lock Thanks - knew I could depend on that. Please don't lock - this is my favourite thread! Maybe a separate "GUI philosophy" thread would be a good forum for pontification. At least then, relevant content wouldn't end up being pushed out of sight by hidden posts and retorts? Edited October 27, 2014 by flashjazzcat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Such a separate thread is a very good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Such a separate thread is a very good idea! I'd be glad to move any relevant posts into a new thread if someone can give me the post numbers to move (located in the upper-right corner of each post) once a thread is created. ..Al 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) The most entertaining part for me was the opening of 10 task manager windows, I agree that's how one would use the GUI because opening large apps with larger memory needs and usage, and swapping those in and out of main memory is probably reserved for machines, well, with a little bit more oomph! Seems that you didn't get it? It's not the question about memory usage but about the number of processes. You can even start 14 browsers without causing a CPU collapse: I choosed the task manager to make the demo in a quicker way (where quick doesn't mean, that the system would be slower with larger apps) and because the task manager is doing something all the time! If I would choose the memory consuming browser 14x, the system would be faster compared to 11x task managers, as the browser is usually only waiting for the user, while the Task Manager is updating continuous. Regarding memory swapping in and out (virtual memory on harddisc): TBH this is already an outdated technology from the 90ies and not used that much today anymore! (maybe you missed this) Though still possible today but even with an SSD it's more or less freezing the whole system, if you run out of ram. The game running in the background was also entertaining, even though I have no idea what was that about, moving particles were interesting. Lol, never heard about it?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life Edited October 27, 2014 by Prodatron 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Great demo. I noticed Game Of Life not seeming to run while the video did. Any detail behind that for us Podatron? Great demo video. I'm impressed by all the taskers updating nicely. Thanks Al, for finding an option. This thread just needs to carry on. There are a lot of us watching this project with great interest. It's a technically excellent effort, and there is all kinds of coolness about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Having been used Windows for ages, I have seen it all, I know how some processes/ways of usage could even bring much more powerful CPUs or OSes to their knees, so all these arguments are moot, we will se it in action anyway so let's reserve the judgement for later. In the meantime for the people who defined me as "c**t", obviously they never look at the mirror Edited October 28, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Lol, never heard about it?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life Wikipedia defines it as a "fun way of wasting CPU cycles" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Having been used Windows for ages, I have seen it all, I know how some processes/ways of usage could even bring much more powerful CPUs or OSes to their knees, so all these arguments are moot, we will se it in action anyway so let's reserve the judgement for later. In the meantime for the people who defined me as "c**t", obviously they never look at the mirror Why not take your judgement and shove it? What you think is not important. I just want you to stop spamming the thread. And oh, the irony: As I said before Doc, I will gracefully accept that I was wrong when I see it happen, besides, from the beginning to this day I never used the word "impossible"... Where did I say that [that it is not possible] exactly?... The whole point is the adventure is not worthwhile, believe me it would have been done already in the past 35+ years had it been possible on a Atari 8 bit 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Why not take your judgement and shove it? What you think is not important. I just want you to stop spamming the thread. And oh, the irony: The whole point is the adventure is not worthwhile, believe me it would have been done already in the past 35+ years had it been possible on a Atari 8 bit FJC, master of taking the words out of context...... Even the dumbest of followers of this thread would realize that the word "possible" was used in the context "if a usable GUI is possible", otherwise I would have said "technically possible"..... but sure, you could always say "he said not possible and I did it" and there will be many who would be satisfied with that explanation and applaud, well, good for you..... but I still emphasize the usability not technical possibility.... Now you can say fuck you c**t one more time, but it will only satisfy you for the time being.... Edited October 28, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 No dice on banning a certain someone from this topic? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Great demo. I noticed Game Of Life not seeming to run while the video did. Any detail behind that for us Podatron? The reason is: The Conway app uses kind of multithreading for demonstration purposes. After loading the app it starts a second process, which is only responsible for calculating the field. This process runs at a lower priority than the usual app processes. This is to show, that it's possible to have heavy calculations in the background without slowing down any part of the system. As the video player is taking more or less any remaining CPU time, the lower prioritized Conway calculation process is more or less stopped. But it's still getting very few CPU time (as it may happen in a few times, that all higher prioritized process return the CPU time ), if you have a closer look you will recognized, that sometimes the display is still updated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) No dice on banning a certain someone from this topic? So that no criticism or opinion can be submitted, sure why not, is that how democracy works in your neck of the woods?? Edited October 28, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So that no criticism or opinion can be submitted, sure why not, is that how democracy work in your part of the woods?? Whether you're right or wrong you're trolling the O.P. to the point of anger and frustration. Please stop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) This is to show, that it's possible to have heavy calculations in the background without slowing down any part of the system. As the video player is taking more or less any remaining CPU time, the lower prioritized Conway calculation process is more or less stopped. But it's still getting very few CPU time (as it may happen in a few times, that all higher prioritized process return the CPU time ), if you have a closer look you will recognized, that sometimes the display is still updated. So how does the scheduler prioritize the tasks, what criteria is used, are there special preferences for certain kind of tasks. The fact that the second thread of the game with a lower priority basically stops when a video is playing shows that the CPU does not have enough juice to keep the task running. And that is the whole point of my argument here, sure in theory multitasking is possible but the question is whether it will be usable. If you were using a modern multitasking system would you accept the total halt of the lower priority thread, I am sure sure you would have said "it's time to upgrade", so i still think the Rapidus upgrade will do wonders for the GUI. Edited October 28, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Whether you're right or wrong you're trolling the O.P. to the point of anger and frustration. Please stop. When is posting one's opinion on a subject is considered trolling, you and others are welcome to prove me wrong but don't call me names just because you don't like what i am saying. If the OP is getting angry it means he has issues with himself otherwise he would have just ignored my comments and instead of calling me names he would have proven his point, and he can still do that and when he does I'll be the first one who will say "I was wrong" Edited October 28, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 When is posting one's opinion on a subject is considered trolling, you and others are welcome to prove me wrong but don't call me names just because you don't like what i am saying. Like I said. I don't have enough experience to quantify the points you're arguing. But, this has gone beyond a casual discussion. When the O.P. no longer finds it productive then the polite thing to do is start your own discussion. Instead you continue. That's trolling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ripdubski Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Could everyone please stop posting unless its directly related to the thread content? usage case scenarios are not relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Ok, I am off this topic forever until I see the real thing running on my machine. I hope I will be free to express my opinions when the time comes, and oh yeah on a different thread for sure So there you go, i leave you all alone with your code fragments and demos and admirations.... Edited October 28, 2014 by atari8warez 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So that no criticism or opinion can be submitted, sure why not, is that how democracy works in your neck of the woods?? Good thing this isn't a democracy. /kick ..Al 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 The reason is: The Conway app uses kind of multithreading for demonstration purposes. After loading the app it starts a second process, which is only responsible for calculating the field. This process runs at a lower priority than the usual app processes. This is to show, that it's possible to have heavy calculations in the background without slowing down any part of the system. As the video player is taking more or less any remaining CPU time, the lower prioritized Conway calculation process is more or less stopped. But it's still getting very few CPU time (as it may happen in a few times, that all higher prioritized process return the CPU time ), if you have a closer look you will recognized, that sometimes the display is still updated. The good thing about the scheduling strategy (if I have understood and re-implemented it correctly) is that the UI process is never pre-empted unless there is another task with the same highest-level priority. If the UI consumes its entire time-slice without going idle, and if there are only lower-priority tasks in the queue, then the UI process is not interrupted. I reckon this was the best way to do it, since - because the UI process handles most or all user interaction - the system will still be responsive even when an application's underlying code is receiving little or no CPU time. The only time window redraws would stutter is if there was a heavy process with the same priority as the UI. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The good thing about the scheduling strategy (if I have understood and re-implemented it correctly) is that the UI process is never pre-empted unless there is another task with the same highest-level priority. If the UI consumes its entire time-slice without going idle, and if there are only lower-priority tasks in the queue, then the UI process is not interrupted. I reckon this was the best way to do it, since - because the UI process handles most or all user interaction - the system will still be responsive even when an application's underlying code is receiving little or no CPU time. The only time window redraws would stutter is if there was a heavy process with the same priority as the UI. That's a good thing... most studies on usability show that users perceive speed more from the UI than the app. As long as the part that interacts with the user is fast, they'll feel it's faster than the same app running twice as fast, but with a slower interface. That's particularly true with menus... I myself cuss at menus that take 10 to 20 secs to render on Windows or linux on my 3.5GHz AMD64 while nodding in satisfaction at the menu popping up almost instantly on my 266MHz Celeron running AROS. It just FEELS faster, so it must BE faster... at least, that's how it makes you feel. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The user experience really isn't fair. I mean, BeOS had awesome multitasking and threading but the mouse cursor was given weaker priority than Windows. Disk i/o in Windows could be locking the system and I'm just dandy as long as I can wiggle the mouse cursor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 This project is very interesting for me, because it shows the incredible power of atari 8bit, and it shows how capable FJC is in coding. These both elements do really please me. I enjoy using FJC's other tools, so this project will absolutely please me when I will amaze myself and others with this GUI on my a8. On the other side... I'm very afraid, this GUI will 'force' me to buy that new hardware thing that will speed up my atari... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 You seem unable to decide whether you think it'll run well or not on a stock machine? I expected a couple of digs from the sponsors, but let's assume Ataris run at 1.79MHz for the moment, eh? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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