New GUI for the Atari 8-bit

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

As much as I have a bad opinion on "MagiC OS", it was not a copy (slavish or not) of the Mac GUI.

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

It is only a Mac font which is in use...

 

I (and I think @FifthPlayer too) was only speaking of the visuals from the screenshot; and with that, there's much more that mimics the Mac OS than just a couple of fonts. The way the windows, icons, and menus look (the particular 3D styles), and the colors that are used to make them, all follow very closely to the Mac OS versions being mentioned. Adding those together with the Mac fonts makes the visuals almost a direct ripoff. Not that it matters to me that it is (they're welcome to it), but it is.

 

[_The Doctor__]

Didn't MAGIC get made for other architectures and was to unify the experience across machines like Magic.

I bought a copy of it.

[Atari8guy]

What's the best part about a GUI?  Not asking facetiously...  I think FJC's GUI is all kind of sexy, but I don't know the practical applications...most A8's won't have enough memory left over to run much? or do I not understand something about how it works?  If it's just a file manager, that's interesting enough but wouldn't be hard to make that as quick as the command line (or MyDOS)?  

 

Maybe it's all a launch point and platform for FJC's new WYSIWYG DTP - The Last Page?

Edited March 22 by Atari8guy

[+MrFish]

3 hours ago, Atari8guy said:

What's the best part about a GUI?

 

Catherine Zeta-Jones wallpaper?

 

 

[Irgendwer]

3 hours ago, MrFish said:

Catherine Zeta-Jones wallpaper?

Nah - we need a killer app like "xphoon"...

[+MrFish]

6 minutes ago, Irgendwer said:

Nah - we need a killer app like "xphoon"...

OK, I stand corrected, "The Moon". 

 

[Beeblebrox]

8 hours ago, Atari8guy said:

What's the best part about a GUI?  Not asking facetiously...  I think FJC's GUI is all kind of sexy, but I don't know the practical applications...most A8's won't have enough memory left over to run much? or do I not understand something about how it works?  If it's just a file manager, that's interesting enough but wouldn't be hard to make that as quick as the command line (or MyDOS)?  

 

Maybe it's all a launch point and platform for FJC's new WYSIWYG DTP - The Last Page?

Well, being of the generation that saw guis become the norm in my late teens and being a Windows user, personally I see the obvious appeal for having a decent, fast GUI on the a8. I have a pretty bad short term memory and having to remember long path names, syntax and the like for command line stuff makes the appeal for point and click GUI and icon based interfaces very high. Not to mention in command line when viewing long directories and files it can be far more tedious than having them as icons or filenames laid out in grids in a GUI window. 

 

As for actually running it on a8s, I'd see it running off a cart or built into a hardware upgrade, (currently like the demo of fjc's GUI which is built into the  u1mb. If people want a GUI for the A8 and extra ram is required, people will upgrade. After all ram upgrading has been happening since the a8s first came out in the 80s and these days it's can be very affordable, (ie a rambo xl 256k upgrade in a stock 800xl costs £30, or the 320k 65xe or 130xe upgrades cost maybe £20). U1mb of course, which is way more than just a memory upgrade. Or for those who don't have the skills there are plugins ram upgrades via the pbi, or cart based ones like avg or subavg cart. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I like spartados x, and love the text based loader interface my side3 gives me. But having a fast A8 GUI with lots of ram, running off pbi and with some multitasking ability, would be amazing. 

 

Aside the obvious file manager with the usual drag and drop, cut n paste, create/rename/delete folders and files, multiple folder windows open at once, I can see other useful applications. I'd see word processing with GUI's, an image or even a rasta converter gui slide show, as well as music trackers, etc running. Loading pdm music files would be cool too. Then once an application is exited, where possible, returning to the GUI without rebooting and having it remember the folder you were in, or have the same folders open, would be cool. (Side3 loader already remembers the last folder you were in). 

 

Of course there will be fans of command line interfaces who'll always prefer this over a GUI and visa versa.

 

 

Edited March 22 by Beeblebrox

[Beeblebrox]

35 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Maybe it's all a launch point and platform for FJC's new WYSIWYG DTP - The Last Page?

Maybe 😉

[atarixle]

On 3/22/2024 at 3:36 PM, Atari8guy said:

What's the best part about a GUI?  Not asking facetiously...  I think FJC's GUI is all kind of sexy, but I don't know the practical applications...most A8's won't have enough memory left over to run much? or do I not understand something about how it works?  If it's just a file manager, that's interesting enough but wouldn't be hard to make that as quick as the command line (or MyDOS)?  

 

Maybe it's all a launch point and platform for FJC's new WYSIWYG DTP - The Last Page?

Once the GUI framework is written, the rest should be done quickly.

Programs that really could use a mouse-GUI were a file-manager (just to be able to unload the GUI and run everything already existing), a font-editor (pixels faster than joystick, but not as precise as with keyboard), graphics-8-paint (because Graphics 15 has enough paint-programs), simple texteditor (for editing some config files from within the GUI, something BOSS-X still lags of because I didn't make it to write anything like a simple text-editor in Turbo-BASIC).

 

For serious work we could use a GUI-version of The Last Word, plus running a music-player in the background.

Edited March 24 by atarixle
refine my english skills

[flashjazzcat]

On 3/22/2024 at 2:36 PM, Atari8guy said:

What's the best part about a GUI?  Not asking facetiously...  I think FJC's GUI is all kind of sexy, but I don't know the practical applications...most A8's won't have enough memory left over to run much? or do I not understand something about how it works?  If it's just a file manager, that's interesting enough but wouldn't be hard to make that as quick as the command line (or MyDOS)?

It's a good question. Usefulness would depend entirely upon the availability of productivity applications (text editors, drawing app, etc), and since BASIC and other high-level languages are no use whatsoever for writing then, they'd either have to be written by me or someone else capable of authoring complex relocatable assembly language programs. No doubt other development solutions would 'appear' after the fact, but until I complete the titanic task of finishing the OS, controls, file manager, etc, the thing is unlikely to interest anyone capable of writing resource editors (regardless of how many mock-up screens are published), better compilers, etc. A real chicken-and-egg situation, especially since I'm already subject to some inconvenient restrictions in the MADS assembler.

 

Regarding memory: 128K is the minimum requirement, and since data and applications just suck up as many 16K RAM banks as are available, you'd be able to run the file manager, simple text editor, etc, on a 128K machine without problems. Applications larger than 16K would be non-relocatable and running out of more than one 16K bank, managing inter-bank jumps themselves. I made the decision some years ago not to support any legacy applications whatsoever since there are plenty of pseudo-GUI front-ends already which function as launchers for text-mode software.

 

As for speed: the matter of CPU cycle usage has been discussed ad nauseam in this topic already, but the fact is that GUIs spend a great deal of time doing nothing at all unless one is busy dragging windows around, navigating menus, etc, just as a text-mode CLI spends most of its time doing nothing but wait for the user to type something. I intended the GOS to have a terminal, and did not expect it to be significantly less responsive than that of - say - SpartaDOS for the reasons cited above. Check out SymbOS for corroboration of the foregoing assertions, anyway. It has a CLI which works well on an 8-bit platform of broadly similar speed and capabilities.

[Jacques]

21 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

t's a good question. Usefulness would depend entirely upon the availability of productivity applications (text editors, drawing app, etc), and since BASIC and other high-level languages are no use whatsoever for writing then, they'd either have to be written by me or someone else capable of authoring complex relocatable assembly language programs.

Probably not (easily) possible, but it would be interesting if existing GEOS applications could be ported to use GUI, instead of writing them from scratch

Edited March 27 by Jacques

[atarixle]

GEOS itself has been ported ...

Edited April 11 by atarixle

[+MrFish]

10 minutes ago, atarixle said:

GEOS itself has been ported ...

Not really. We just have some demos so far; but they're pretty impressive progress. One thing, also, is that the project seems to have stalled. If you check on the Github page, no updates since the demos were released 2 years ago. So, it joins this project in dormancy, atm.

 

[_The Doctor__]

until someone kicks in with Disk I/O etc the GEOS project probably will not move forward.

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

Not really. We just have some demos so far; but they're pretty impressive progress. One thing, also, is that the project seems to have stalled. If you check on the Github page, no updates since the demos were released 2 years ago. So, it joins this project in dormancy, atm.

 

yeah, the last mention of on AA was this thread around 2 years ago, (sorry if linked to somewhere above), which probably got a lot of people excited at the time:

 

Edited April 11 by Beeblebrox

[atarixle]

The thing is, it is a final and well received product with even some commercial success. This is why I mentioned it at all (again).

FJCs GUI is indeed impressive, but I highly guess that it wont come any further just because of the limitations the Atari has. The goal of having Multi-Tasking on the 6502 is set too high. It is indeed impressive to see, that coders can do it, but without the help of some hardware, like the 68000 and the x86 has, it is doomed to stuck in demo mode.

[_The Doctor__]

Bad guess, this all shows it can be done, just that other pieces to the puzzle aren't filled in. If you would like to fund it, then it can be... otherwise, people have got to eat, have a place to live, and perhaps some transportation.

[Atari8man2004]

37 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Bad guess, this all shows it can be done, just that other pieces to the puzzle aren't filled in. If you would like to fund it, then it can be... otherwise, people have got to eat, have a place to live, and perhaps some transportation.

I agree with the doctor so I suggest we set up a funding system that works with Paypal monthly payments.  "I am all in" it's time to put money where our mouth are.  As of right now I am paying way to much supporting all kind of stuff like open source news and other things I can drop . I would rather support FJC  with a monthly payment..    Come on guy's lets get it done.

 

Edited April 11 by Atari8man2004

[woj]

5 minutes ago, Atari8man2004 said:

Come on guy's lets get it done.

Sorry for being a killjoy, but why? I mean, if we are talking about the GUI from this topic (or was it the GEOS that we switched to on the way?) it would have to be Jon doing this work, or at least coordinating it, from the looks of it and his comments here he might find time to do it in few years from now, and besides, the actual point I am getting to - I can name at least two other projects I'd love to see him working on, write support for the FATFS SDX driver, or FAT32 driver for SDX to begin with.

 

(Also, don't get me wrong, I think the GUI is great, I am very impressed with it, it would be really nice to see it finished, I am all for that, I am just being less of a dreamer here 😉.)

[Atari8man2004]

26 minutes ago, woj said:

Sorry for being a killjoy, but why? I mean, if we are talking about the GUI from this topic (or was it the GEOS that we switched to on the way?) it would have to be Jon doing this work, or at least coordinating it, from the looks of it and his comments here he might find time to do it in few years from now, and besides, the actual point I am getting to - I can name at least two other projects I'd love to see him working on, write support for the FATFS SDX driver, or FAT32 driver for SDX to begin with.

 

(Also, don't get me wrong, I think the GUI is great, I am very impressed with it, it would be really nice to see it finished, I am all for that, I am just being less of a dreamer here 😉.)

Not everybody likes the CLI of Sparta dos my wife, kids and grand kids would not use the Atari they have no patience and not every Atari user uses the CLI.  I on the other hand Love Sparta and ran a mutiline BBS for 11 years.    I'm not going to hold my breath for them to fix the issues with GEOS it's all up to FJC and the Users that would like to see the GUI and want to fund him.  I'm retried and can spend money now   Like I said I'm all in with a funding payment system for FJC Gui.       

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Atari8man2004 said:

Not everybody likes the CLI of Sparta dos my wife, kids and grand kids would not use the Atari they have no patience and not every Atari user uses the CLI.  I on the other hand Love Sparta and ran a mutiline BBS for 11 years.    I'm not going to hold my breath for them to fix the issues with GEOS it's all up to FJC and the Users that would like to see the GUI and want to fund him.  I'm retried and can spend money now   Like I said I'm all in with a funding payment system for FJC Gui.       

It would be amazing, but the main consideration here is it would all come down to Jon's day to day commitments, time available and motivation/willingness to put himself through it all.

 

It's a major undertaking, even if the colossal work he spent in the last couple of years on the fat file system/dos and related coding which can be used in the GUI has already been done. Even if a generous amount of money was to come his way via the forum and wider donations, it's unlikely to be enough to allow him to focus on the GUI above his day to day hardware work/income and other coding commitments, videos, etc. 

 

Also, being beholden to the community who has funded him is a real pressure and at times a demotivate I'd imagine. 

 

I think at some stage I am sure he'll find time to do bits on it, but I think it's a case of just seeing what happens over the next couple of years. Maybe we'll see something develop further, maybe not. 

 

If course this is my own opinion and I am sure Jon will chime in at some stage.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11 by Beeblebrox

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, Atari8man2004 said:

Not everybody likes the CLI of Sparta dos my wife, kids and grand kids would not use the Atari they have no patience and not every Atari user uses the CLI.

GUI or CLI makes no difference to the scenario of my wife and kids ever wanting to use the Atari. And if they ever did, all they would be interested in doing on it would be games which are easily handled by the menus on the various Multi-Carts or SDrives. And I'd pretty much have to put myself in that camp as well a good majority of the time.

 

I had a discussion over Zoom with a few other Atarians about this, and I openly voiced my opinion that from a practicality point of view there's really nothing I'd prefer doing on an 8-Bit Atari vs. my Linux box (maybe games).

 

For instance in my opinion all these applications will require a modern PC of some kind with a GUI (Windows, MAC, Linux)...

• WYSIWYG Word Processing via Word or Libreoffice Writer
• Proper surfing on the internet via Chrome, Firefox, or Edge, ect. that can handle graphics
• Proper email client that can handle all attachments
• Proper spreadsheet such as Excel or LibreOffice Calc
• PDF Viewer
• Video editing
• Photo editing
• Ability to run development platforms for modern hardware (ESP, Arduino, Raspberry Pi, PICs, AVRs, FPGAs, CPLDs)
• PCB Design Suites
• 3D Printing and Design
• Posting on AtariAge
• And the list goes on, and on...

So what's left? Retro Games.

 

Pretty interesting coming from a guy that develops hardware upgrades for retro computers. Edit: Because it's a hobby for me very much like working on an old car.

 

I'm just being realistic on whether my wife and kids would ever want to do something productive on an Atari 8-bit computer, irrelevant if it had a GUI or not

 

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see Jon's GUI finished.

[danwinslow]

This horse is thoroughly dead and beaten into the ground so far you'd need a ladder to get back up.

[Beeblebrox]

6 minutes ago, mytek said:

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see Jon's GUI finished.

Absolutely, it would be amazing to see. Perhaps in the next 5 years some progress will be made, with no pressure on Jon to do so, (be that a financial one, etc). 

[Atari8man2004]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

GUI or CLI makes no difference to the scenario of my wife and kids ever wanting to use the Atari. And if they ever did, all they would be interested in doing on it would be games which are easily handled by the menus on the various Multi-Carts or SDrives. And I'd pretty much have to put myself in that camp as well a good majority of the time.

 

I had a discussion over Zoom with a few other Atarians about this, and I openly voiced my opinion that from a practicality point of view there's really nothing I'd prefer doing on an 8-Bit Atari vs. my Linux box (maybe games).

 

For instance in my opinion all these applications will require a modern PC of some kind with a GUI (Windows, MAC, Linux)...

• WYSIWYG Word Processing via Word or Libreoffice Writer
• Proper surfing on the internet via Chrome, Firefox, or Edge, ect. that can handle graphics
• Proper email client that can handle all attachments
• Proper spreadsheet such as Excel or LibreOffice Calc
• PDF Viewer
• Video editing
• Photo editing
• Ability to run development platforms for modern hardware (ESP, Arduino, Raspberry Pi, PICs, AVRs, FPGAs, CPLDs)
• PCB Design Suites
• 3D Printing and Design
• Posting on AtariAge
• And the list goes on, and on...

So what's left? Retro Games.

 

Pretty interesting coming from a guy that develops hardware upgrades for retro computers. Edit: Because it's a hobby for me very much like working on an old car.

 

I'm just being realistic on whether my wife and kids would ever want to do something productive on an Atari 8-bit computer, irrelevant if it had a GUI or not

 

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see Jon's GUI finished.

You are a linux power user and thats great.   The 8bit Atari is not just a dos box and not everybody is a power user a gui desktop is a much better friendly environment and a lot can be done with it in todays world.