Is SpartaDOS 3.3 pro ShareWare?

[walktari]

Hi there,

 

is there any official statement if SpartaDOS 3.3b pro can be used and distributed for own projects? It displays "(S)hareware 1995 by IFYB, Inc.", but I'm not sure about the terms of use. Would be nice to know because SD 3.3 is really improved vs. SD3.2. Maybe some of the developers of SD 3.3b or involved person could answer my question.

 

Gtx,

 

walktari

[+bf2k+]

Hi there,

 

is there any official statement if SpartaDOS 3.3b pro can be used and distributed for own projects? It displays "(S)hareware 1995 by IFYB, Inc.", but I'm not sure about the terms of use. Would be nice to know because SD 3.3 is really improved vs. SD3.2. Maybe some of the developers of SD 3.3b or involved person could answer my question.

 

Gtx,

 

walktari

 

IIRC, I was told by Steve Carden that 3.3 was designed for BBS:Express PRO use - and that 3.3a was for emulator use - not real hardware. I don't think I've ever used 3.3b at all.

 

Fuzzy! Of course my memory may be failing me somewhat. Maybe someone else here can clarify all this.

[Shawn Jefferson]

The copyright is 13 years old, and the "ownership" of SpartaDOS is fuzzy from what I can tell... I'd use it silently and not worry about it.

 

The "new" SpartaDOS X is awesome, if you are a SpartaDOS user, you need to check it out.

http://trub.atari8.info/index.php?ref=sdx_upgrade_en

[Curt Vendel]

I am not certain, but I had thought Mike Holman of Finetooned Engineering bought the rights to SpartaDOS from ICD...

 

If that is so, I think given how Mike stole so much money from people and specifically never returned quite a lot of items, including some Atari prototype hardware from John Hardie, I think if anything I'd say John Hardie now owns the rights to it and he posted up the code on his Anarchist Atari website like 10 years ago.

 

Supposedly someone found and contacted Mike Holman and supposedly "bought" the rights to SpartaDOS, but again - I think given that Mike Holman screwed over some many, owes so much money and rare items to so many people whom he stole from, he lost and forfeited any and all rights to SpartaDOS, and any other ICD product he had and they are now all in public domain and since Mike would never pop his head up out of the sand since a lynch mob will hang him from the nearest tree, I doubt you'd ever see any kind of legal pushback from him.

 

 

Curt

[walktari]

IIRC, I was told by Steve Carden that 3.3 was designed for BBS:Express PRO use - and that 3.3a was for emulator use - not real hardware. I don't think I've ever used 3.3b at all. Fuzzy! Of course my memory may be failing me somewhat. Maybe someone else here can clarify all this.

 

Hi,

 

what does "BBS:Express PRO use" exactly mean?

 

3.3a does not support hispeed, so it is suitable for the emulators SIO-patches. 3.3b supports hispeed and works very well with SIO2PC and SIO2USB.

 

Gtx

[walktari]

I am not certain, but I had thought Mike Holman of Finetooned Engineering bought the rights to SpartaDOS from ICD...

 

If that is so, I think given how Mike stole so much money from people and specifically never returned quite a lot of items, including some Atari prototype hardware from John Hardie, I think if anything I'd say John Hardie now owns the rights to it and he posted up the code on his Anarchist Atari website like 10 years ago.

 

Supposedly someone found and contacted Mike Holman and supposedly "bought" the rights to SpartaDOS, but again - I think given that Mike Holman screwed over some many, owes so much money and rare items to so many people whom he stole from, he lost and forfeited any and all rights to SpartaDOS, and any other ICD product he had and they are now all in public domain and since Mike would never pop his head up out of the sand since a lynch mob will hang him from the nearest tree, I doubt you'd ever see any kind of legal pushback from him.

 

 

Curt

 

Hi Curt,

 

do you think, SD versions 3.3 a and b are also covered by this? The situation is really fuzzy. On the other hand, given the things I heared about the last "owner" of SpartaDos M. Holman, one might feel free to use SD for own projects.

 

Gtx

[+bob1200xl]

I think Steve has the rights to SD as it applies to ExpressPro, not general use.

 

With any of the software floating around - don't give anyone who may hold the rights to them a reason ($) to come after you. As I remember, Mike distributed 4.22 for free, only charging for the manual. (if you needed one) This is not the same as PD or even shareware, but Mike would have a tough time trying to collect a significant judgement for something he gave away. Doesn't mean that he can't, it would just be problematic. I wouldn't try to sell copies of the manual, however...

 

If you want to distribute 3.3x, I would contact Steve Carden, but I doubt that he has the rights to distribute any version of SD outside of ExpressPro.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

IIRC, I was told by Steve Carden that 3.3 was designed for BBS:Express PRO use - and that 3.3a was for emulator use - not real hardware. I don't think I've ever used 3.3b at all. Fuzzy! Of course my memory may be failing me somewhat. Maybe someone else here can clarify all this.

 

Hi,

 

what does "BBS:Express PRO use" exactly mean?

 

3.3a does not support hispeed, so it is suitable for the emulators SIO-patches. 3.3b supports hispeed and works very well with SIO2PC and SIO2USB.

 

Gtx

[Goochman]

I forgot where/when but there was a pretty big public throw down between Steve and the guy who bought the rights to SpartaDos from Mike H - there where lawsuit threats and the like.

 

Wish I wouldve keep the thread but in theory someone owns SpartaDos and somehow had visions of selling it.

[jaybird3rd]

Steve Carden is (or was) selling RealDOS, along with new versions of Bob Puff's multiplexer cartridge.

[+bf2k+]

 

what does "BBS:Express PRO use" exactly mean?

 

 

Well... if you mean what changes were done for using it with Express, you'd have to ask Steve Carden that - I don't know myself.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

This subject has a long history and took lots of mailing (from 2002 to 2006) with still no solution afaik.

 

 

Both Lance Ringquist (Video61) as Stephen Carden claim to own the © of 3.3 a/b/c (coded by Stephen as FreeWare).

 

The situation seems to be very complicated as Bob Klaas (K-Products) once had the rights of Pro-BBS! which came with Sparta-DOS 3.3a. K-Products sold the © of Pro-BBS! to Video61. Problem is, what about the included Sparta-DOS 3.3? One says this belongs to Pro!-BBS, the other one says this excludes the bundled 3.3 DOS as it's freeware.

 

 

Fact #1: Stephen started to code RealDos (Module based and Sparta-Dos compatible)

Fact #2: Lance mailed me I immediatly had to remove all Sparta-DOS related downloads from http://mixinc.net/atari/download.htm

[Kjmann]

Bob klass approached ICD to have them design Sparta Dos 3.3 to be a bug free edition to use with his BBS Express Professional. Bob Klass Contracted and Paid a Down Payment (So to speak) for Sparta Dos 3.3 A,B, and C.

 

In the meantime Finetooned Engineering Purchased ICD. But the contract with bob klass was still legally Valid. after Finetooned Engineering went out of business sparta dos 3.3 was completed and Bob klass Paid the Contract Programmer the remaining owed on the contract for the completed work/Program.

 

In 1998 Bob klass Sold his Company Lock, Stock and Barrel to Lance Ringquist Of Video61. Lance Currently holds the copyright to Sparta Dos 3.3 a,b, and c and all other K Products Properties, including BSparta DOS 3.3 a,b,and c and BBS Express Professional, Etc. Lance Has All Proper Legal Paperwork, Including Bill of Sale and Canceled Checks to prove ownership Of K Products and all Properties including Sparta DOS 3.3 a,b,and c and BBS Express Professional, Etc.

 

Lance had Said you should Approach him and let him know what you want to do. he is open to working with people for things like this.

 

His Website is www.atarisales.com

 

Hope this Helps. =)

[MEtalGuy66]

Lance can claim whatever he wants. Fact is, Bob Klass never had the rights to Steve Carden's code.. And Steve's attourneys have "broken it off in Lance's ass" many times over this.. Lance is not allowed to sell or claim copyright to anything containing Steve's work, Steve's name, or Steve's Code... And that's the truth..

 

I'll see if Steve can get on here and make some brief clarification of the actual situation involving this..

[Kjmann]

Lance can claim whatever he wants. Fact is, Bob Klass never had the rights to Steve Carden's code.. And Steve's attourneys have "broken it off in Lance's ass" many times over this.. Lance is not allowed to sell or claim copyright to anything containing Steve's work, Steve's name, or Steve's Code... And that's the truth..

 

I'll see if Steve can get on here and make some brief clarification of the actual situation involving this..

 

Hey, I was just passing the info I was Told Along. If There's a legal battle on this then that is between them. lance is a friend of mine and he asked me to post the info so I did.

 

So please, Don't shoot The Messenger. =)

[Fox-1 / mnx]

I'll see if Steve can get on here and make some brief clarification of the actual situation involving this..

Please don't. Both parties have discussed this issue a while ago in public with no solution. If they want to continue, let they do it in private, not on a public board where everyone can join and comment on their issue.

 

Only when the issue is solved I want to hear about it.

[Kjmann]

 

Please don't. Both parties have discussed this issue a while ago in public with no solution. If they want to continue, let they do it in private, not on a public board where everyone can join and comment on their issue.

 

Only when the issue is solved I want to hear about it.

 

Sorry Folks, I wasn't trying to open a can of worms. I don't want anything to do with that stuff.

 

If I had known that this could be volatile, I wouldn't have said anything. =)

[video61atarisales]

Hi there,

 

is there any official statement if SpartaDOS 3.3b pro can be used and distributed for own projects? It displays "(S)hareware 1995 by IFYB, Inc.", but I'm not sure about the terms of use. Would be nice to know because SD 3.3 is really improved vs. SD3.2. Maybe some of the developers of SD 3.3b or involved person could answer my question.

 

Gtx,

 

walktari

 

 

 

sorry to interrupt, i should have stepped in right away. the history of sparta 3.3, a,b, and c is correct as reported by kjman. in fact, mr. cardin was not the original programmer, a nice fellow by the name of ken ames was the main programmer, and never received a dime in payment for his work, so ask mr. cardin why? .mr. cardin was paid, and we never knew about mr. ames. we found this out later, when ken came forwards when mr. cardin tried to lay claim that i did not own sparta 3.3.

mr. cardin and another fellow about maybe 3-5 years ago, tried to lay claim to sparta 3.3, and one of them posted on comp.sys.atari, that the owner had 30 days to prove ownership, if not, he was going to claim it as his own.

i immediately went to my lawyers, and they are copyright patent lawyers, brought in all of my paperwork, including bill of sales and canceled checks, and set them to work answering the fellow, as well as mr. cardin. both received letters with proof, and were made to announce in public as a settlement, that i was the sole owner of all of bob klass's k-products.

i have registored my ownership, there is a paperwork trail, and you will find sparta-dos 3.3 carts on my web site for sale at, www.atarisales.com

sparta-dos 3.3 is still being supported, and is being worked on for new developments as we speak. as are other properties i acquired from k-products.

sorry if there is any confusion on this subject. but its been settled legally a long time ago.

 

 

 

 

lance

www.atarisales.com

[cyco130]

I have no knowledge on the subject but all this stuff makes me think that a free and open source Atari DOS is an urgent need of the community and a person that would engage in such an activity would be my hero

 

Just my two cents...

[Urchlay]

I have no knowledge on the subject but all this stuff makes me think that a free and open source Atari DOS is an urgent need of the community and a person that would engage in such an activity would be my hero

 

Agree 100%.

 

If you consider BSD-style licenses to be "free and open source", there's Thor's OS++ (http://www.xl-project.com/, scroll about halfway down the page). This is a replacement for the Atari ROM OS and includes (tiny!) FMS and DUP replacements... though as far as I know, Thor's FMS doesn't support things like hard disks, drives with 512-byte sectors, or the SpartaDOS filesystem (but it's open source, you could always code up whatever features you want).

[drac030]

MyDOS source code is available, so what's the matter? Besides, most DOS-es, even if they're closed source, are freeware. So really I don't see a need for yet another one.

Edited February 2, 2010 by drac030

[flashjazzcat]

I was saying only the other day that I wished the source for XBWDOS was available, since I could immediately see a few areas where improvements could be made. Personally I see no harm in an another open-source DOS, especially one that's Sparta compatible. SDX is so advanced and complex now that there's little need to make it an open source project: however, just because it's the best DOS by a big margin (and that's what I think), doesn't mean someone couldn't have a lot of fun coding up another one. I always fancied writing a DOS, but I wouldn't want to start it from scratch. MyDOS is tied to the awful sector chain system. Half the fun I get from programming is working out how to do stuff that's probably already been done before anyway: that doesn't make it pointless, though.

Edited February 2, 2010 by flashjazzcat

[walktari]

Hi @all and thanks for the discussion,

 

as the creator of this thread I'd like to give you a notice about the backgrounds of my question. I'm an ATARI user from Germany since 1984 when I received my first 600XL.

 

Last year I re-discovered my ATARI hobby and purchased a SIO2USB interface on the ABBUC (Atari Bit Byter User Club) annual meeting. I was amazed about the (for me) "new" features like large 16MB images and hispeed-i/o. So, since I'm not a gamer and more interested in applications, I head the idea to develop an application that should support this cool features. The app should be in the PD and free for any user. I decided to develop a german/english dictionary using a 300000 words (~10 MBytes) list. I thought this was a nice app for the little ATARI.

 

The first task was to find such a wordlist in the public domain. I found one under GPL at a German university. So the next step was to find a DOS capable of handling such amounts of data fast enough. For my first experiments I used BeWeDOS 1.3 which is known as a freeware clone of SpartaDOS. But BeWeDOS showed a serious weakness when it comes to relative disc access and was much too slow for my needs (it always starts reading a file from the beginning, even if you just want to seek one single byte forth or back while SpartaDOS is capable of this "true" relative seeks). So i tested SpartaDOS X 4.42 on cartridge which fullfilled all my needs. My app now found each word within 5,5 secs on MSC-IDE-controller and 13,5 sec. on SIO-devices. Because SDX was on cart now I tried to find a DOS which I could put on the ATR-image so that users without SDX could use my app. This is where SD 3.2 and 3.3 came into focus. At that time I wether knew that SD 3.2 is known as shareware nor that SD 3.3 is still under copyright. In a PD library I found SpartaDOS 3.2f which worked well with my app when using the emulator or SIO2PC. But just with SIO2USB it failed (because of problems with SIO 2x/3x between SD 3.2f and SIO2USB I think). So I tried SD 3.3a/b I found somewhere on the web. Both worked fine with all devices and with the ATARI800Win emulator.

 

Meanwhile the "small" floppy version of my dictionary (with only 2000 words) and SD 3.2f on disk achieved the 3rd place at the 2009 ABBUC software contest and I now was looking forward to offer the "big" version as PD for ABBUC members and anyone else who wants to use it.

 

That's about the background of my question. Surely there are a lot of freeware DOSes but BeWeDOS, even though it is compatible to Sparta, was too slow and AFAIK MyDOS does not support that type of relative disk access I needed for my (binary) search routine.

 

To sum it up, I was looking for a stable disk-based SpartaDOS version that could be freely distributed.

 

Another interesting approach could be a small disk-based version of SDX 4.4x with a minimum of features needed for programming. But as I far as I know the developers of SDX have no plans in that direction.

 

Gtx

Edited February 2, 2010 by walktari

[Rybags]

I'd like a DOS that loads almost exclusively in extended RAM (VBXE option included).

 

The added benefit is that you get coldstart protection, so a subsequent reboot then only needs to do a CRC of the extended code to decide whether it needs to load the remainder of the DOS.

 

The other benefit, if it was a project from scratch, is that you don't need to worry so much about making it compact. In fact, there's no reason that it couldn't have any combination of CLI, wedge, menu and GUI options.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Rybags

[flashjazzcat]

Heck, if we go down that road, I was musing about something like TOS for the 8-bit: DOS and GUI all intrinsically packaged into one. As you say, 64K-128K of base code would be no problem on modern machines.

[drac030]

Another interesting approach could be a small disk-based version of SDX 4.4x with a minimum of features needed for programming. But as I far as I know the developers of SDX have no plans in that direction.

 

It is hardly possible to separate SpartaDOS X from the cartridge. It is everything so short and fast because programs (such as COMMAND.COM) use three of the cartridge banks as sort-of shared library. Of course, it is possible to put the formatter into ext RAM, and link statically the rest, but then imagine a 20 KB COMMAND.COM: it is not resident, and it would load 4-5 times longer than it does now. Same with most other utilities. I assure you that you wouldn't be very impressed.