Is SpartaDOS 3.3 pro ShareWare?

[Stephen J. Carden]

...He is acting like some letter that his lawyer wrote to Steve at some point qualifies as a legal contract of ownership simply because (he claims) Steve never disputed it... So under this type of logic, if I write a letter to the US department of state, claiming ownership of the capitol building in Washington.. and they choose not to reply to my crazy ramblings... Then by default, whatever I wrote in the letter automatically becomes truth!?!?!?

 

Hear, hear! This, to me, is the best written response in this thread. I feel like I should buy you some beers for this, MEtalGuy66.

 

I'll get the next round!!!.....I thought you guys were talking about windows 7 for a second...LOL!

 

 

At least in the Windows World there is money to be made. I like to program for the 8-bit when the mood strikes me. But the Cool thing here is I can program in almost any language I choose. So If I want something I can site down and program it. In most cases I write things that should not work on the little old 8-bit. Since there is no Money in SpartaDos x3.3? and I have stopped writting code for SpartaDos only. I really don't want to burdan good Atari users with Lance (in my Opinion) Stupid Shit. Lance do something to impress the Atari World write a program of anykind that would be useful. You have source learn from it, an do Something Usefull. SpartaDos was made freeware my mike holman himself and there is nothing you can do about it. Software is not a car that you can recall when you want. The Moment it went out as freeware it's gone! Lance what you should do is go into the source and have your Name and Company be know for progress and not Stupid Shit. Everyone here already know you. I am not going to bother the few Atari USER out there with your childish tantrum.

 

After some thought I must agree with Al; Lance is not worth my time. My time is better spent programming for my hobby machine. All Lance is doing is delaying my hardware and software project.

 

Stephen J. Carden

Edited February 4, 2010 by Stephen J. Carden

[+CharlieChaplin]

Errm,

 

1) quoting something from Steve: "...SpartaDOS was made freeware by Mike Holman himself..."

 

Well, afaik all disk-based SpartaDOS versions by FTE were released as shareware - not freeware, Steve, weren`t they ?!?

 

2) quoting something from MetalGuy: "...When Mike Holman bought ICD's 8-bit product line, he released SpartaDos 3.2 as shareware.. This opened the door legally for the decompilation/reverse engineering of any of the 3.2 versions of Spartados..."

 

Hmm, shareware does not automatically mean open source - so it is not always/automatically legal to decompile or reverse-engineer shareware - or is it ?!? And err, did Mike Holman say or note anywhere, that the shareware versions of SpartaDOS can be decompiled or reverse-engineered ?!?

 

3) Another quote from MetalGuy: "...At that time, Steve Carden had a copy fo the source code for Spartados 3.32c, a never released version of spartados, that Mike Gustavson had given him years previous to FTe's aquisition of ICD's stuff.. It was from this source code that SpartaDOS 3.3a,b,and c were built and advanced. Lance may have paid Bob for the "rights" to these compiled versions of the DOS, but the plain fact of the matter is that Bob never owned the rights to begin with.."

 

Hmm, Mike Gustavson gave Steve the sourcecode of SpartaDOS 3.32c - did Mike have any rights to do so ?!? Even if he was the author of that version (or of the whole SpartaDOS itself) it does not nescessarily mean he has the right to give away the source - since ICD then had the copyright to SpartaDOS, this friendly give-away by Mike could have been illegal (except ICD had told Mike officially to do that)...

 

Second, did Steve have any official contract (or something similar) by the copyright-owner ICD or later FTE to use the sourcecode of 3.32c and program a better/newer version of SpartaDOS ?!? Otherwise the use of the sourcecode for a "new" program would have been illegal. And if there was some kind of contract (or something similar), was there some word about the status of the new/to-be-released SpartaDOS 3.3 (only bundled with BBS-Express-Pro, freeware, shareware, fully commercial product,) or was that completely left to the author ?!?

 

Note: This is not to attack anyone of you (I am sorry if it sounds like that) - I am just curious about it...

-Andreas Koch.

 

P.S.: Was it Mike Holman or Mike Hohman ?!? Here in Germany they always wrote Mike Hohman...

[Cebus Capucinis]

Reverse engineering? Who do I know that knows a lot about both the law and reverse engineering?.....hmm, someone who has a username like that......hmmm.....

[+bf2k+]

 

P.S.: Was it Mike Holman or Mike Hohman ?!? Here in Germany they always wrote Mike Hohman...

 

Hohman

[MEtalGuy66]

Ok.. Andreas.. Your questions are adding needless levels of complexity here.. BuT i'll answer them, since as you can see I'm a much more eloquent typist than Steve, and Ive already discussed all this at length with him..

 

The bottom line here is what I said before.. Lance has no legally valid documentation showing any transfer of rights from Fte to K-products, concerning SpartaDos 3.3 pro.... All he has is a somewhat generic contract of sale for BBS express professional and "all related" K-products software licenses from K-products to himself... This does not establish ownership of the rights of Spartados 3.3 pro...

 

STEVE IS NOT CLAIMING RIGHTS TO THE DOS.. HE IS ONLY CLAIMING THAT IT'S SHAREWARE AND FREELY DISTRIBUTABLE

STEVE IS NOT CLAIMING RIGHTS TO THE DOS.. HE IS ONLY CLAIMING THAT IT'S SHAREWARE AND FREELY DISTRIBUTABLE

STEVE IS NOT CLAIMING RIGHTS TO THE DOS.. HE IS ONLY CLAIMING THAT IT'S SHAREWARE AND FREELY DISTRIBUTABLE

 

Errm,

 

1) quoting something from Steve: "...SpartaDOS was made freeware by Mike Holman himself..."

 

Well, afaik all disk-based SpartaDOS versions by FTE were released as shareware - not freeware, Steve, weren`t they ?!?

You are right. It was referred to as "shareware" every where I saw it back then..

 

2) quoting something from MetalGuy: "...When Mike Holman bought ICD's 8-bit product line, he released SpartaDos 3.2 as shareware.. This opened the door legally for the decompilation/reverse engineering of any of the 3.2 versions of Spartados..."

 

Hmm, shareware does not automatically mean open source - so it is not always/automatically legal to decompile or reverse-engineer shareware - or is it ?!? And err, did Mike Holman say or note anywhere, that the shareware versions of SpartaDOS can be decompiled or reverse-engineered ?!?

I didnt really feel the need to elaborate here, but Steve actually got permission from ICD to do so.. This is actually BEFORE FtE aquired the rights.. Steve asked gustavson if there was any plans to support the CSS Multiplexer. Mike said no.. Steve asked him if it would be O.K. if he (and Ken Ames)modified SpartaDos for his own purposes (just to use on their OWN personal BBS setups) to work with the Multiplexer.. Mike Said that was fine.

 

3) Another quote from MetalGuy: "...At that time, Steve Carden had a copy fo the source code for Spartados 3.32c, a never released version of spartados, that Mike Gustavson had given him years previous to FTe's aquisition of ICD's stuff.. It was from this source code that SpartaDOS 3.3a,b,and c were built and advanced. Lance may have paid Bob for the "rights" to these compiled versions of the DOS, but the plain fact of the matter is that Bob never owned the rights to begin with.."

 

Hmm, Mike Gustavson gave Steve the sourcecode of SpartaDOS 3.32c - did Mike have any rights to do so ?!? Even if he was the author of that version (or of the whole SpartaDOS itself) it does not nescessarily mean he has the right to give away the source - since ICD then had the copyright to SpartaDOS, this friendly give-away by Mike could have been illegal (except ICD had told Mike officially to do that)...

Nope. It was given to him in confidence by Mike Gustavson, as was alot of other code... Steve never gave out that source.. There have been alot of people who have entrusted Steve with the source code to various things over the years for evaluation purposes, and also for the purposes of development of his own software or joint projects in which he was involved. It goes without saying that he has of course honored any and all agreements, copyrights, and owner stipulations regarding such entrusted source...

 

Second, did Steve have any official contract (or something similar) by the copyright-owner ICD or later FTE to use the sourcecode of 3.32c and program a better/newer version of SpartaDOS ?!? Otherwise the use of the sourcecode for a "new" program would have been illegal. And if there was some kind of contract (or something similar), was there some word about the status of the new/to-be-released SpartaDOS 3.3 (only bundled with BBS-Express-Pro, freeware, shareware, fully commercial product,) or was that completely left to the author ?!?

Well if there was such a contract, noone seems to have any evidence of it.. Lance????

According to Steve's knowledge, there was not. Any crooked/underhanded dealings Mike Hohlman may have made with Bob Klass were done exclusive of him..

Steve Asserts the following:

1)Steve did his work on SPartados 3.3 pro long before Fte was even in the picture.

2)Bob Klass did not contract Steve to do any work on any DOS.

3)Hohlman did not have the right to sell steve's work to Klass.

4)Hohlman DID release all the disk based versions of SpartaDOS as shareware.

5)Steve never gave out any code that he recieved in confidence from ICD, and no longer has any copies of such code in his posession.

 

Note: This is not to attack anyone of you (I am sorry if it sounds like that) - I am just curious about it...

-Andreas Koch.

No offense taken.. Although most of the above is pretty irrelevant to the current situation at hand..

 

Here's what IS RELEVANT: Lance needs to show legally valid documentation that K-products owned the rights to SpartaDOS 3.3 pro, or live with the fact that it is shareware. And quit freaking out and threatenting people..

[Stephen J. Carden]

A while ago I lend my Black-Box to someone...

 

I remember this... and I lend you mine... which operated error-free for ages, till it was connected to your braindead atari XE configuration hehehe. And POOF that was my BB-Rom.

 

Hehehe.

Marius

Marius what wrong with your black Box. If you need a replacement rom let me know the one you need. I had at one time 5 black Boxs. I gave one to Ken Jones who had looked for one to buy. I still have one left never been used and has all the mods including the floppy board. The story about the black box is bad for new devolpment. Bob Puff had a harddrive crash and lot the software source to the Black Box, the Bob Burner source and pal code, and a number of his other source our now on a scrambled harddisk. I purchased all the right to the multiplexer because I had written 90% of the none puff code and had source for the rest. I tried to purchase the rights to the black box and could come up with everything but the pal jed file. The Black box would be a lot of fun making new stuff rune with it. But here the point I am trying to make. There is more really really cool hardware for the Atari right now that in the hay day of Atari. We have programable Carts, two new pbi devices (mio revisited and IDEa) we can connect our 8-bits to the internet (no mor $500.00 phone Bills). Sio devices like the Ape interface, SIO2IDE, SIO2SD. The chip makers keep comming up with new chips sets that can be used with the Atari. But there really isn't the software to make all this stuff come together.

 

Stephen J. Carden

[Stephen J. Carden]

 

Please don't. Both parties have discussed this issue a while ago in public with no solution. If they want to continue, let they do it in private, not on a public board where everyone can join and comment on their issue.

 

Only when the issue is solved I want to hear about it.

 

Sorry Folks, I wasn't trying to open a can of worms. I don't want anything to do with that stuff.

 

If I had known that this could be volatile, I wouldn't have said anything. =)

 

 

Looks like your friend played you! Don't worry I not upset with you or anyone else for that matter. SpartaDos 3.3a,b,c have been circulation on BBS Systems and the internet long before Bob Klaas and video 61 even thought to purchase them. FTe making them a Shareware product then selling a product that FTe killed any Profits. I don't know who coined this but it holds true to this thread. " A fool and his money will soon part". Fifty years from now there will be some kid in his home playing with great granddads computer and see code that I have written. The current projects I have with hardware and software do not include wasting my time over a product that has no profit in it. It is Shareware, Mike Holman was told by some people not to do that. So Mike Holman (the Atari version of Dr. Mudd) has struck again. My Ataris and Model helicopters are my hobbys and pastime and I am not going to waste any more time on the subject.

 

Now for the positive side of this I am going to look into putting a team of programmers together and produce an open source dos that supports all the really coolnew hardware out there. I am not going to say anything bad about Lance, he does a real good job of that himself.

 

Stephen J. Carden

Edited February 5, 2010 by Stephen J. Carden

[Stephen J. Carden]

 

Please don't. Both parties have discussed this issue a while ago in public with no solution. If they want to continue, let they do it in private, not on a public board where everyone can join and comment on their issue.

 

Only when the issue is solved I want to hear about it.

 

Sorry Folks, I wasn't trying to open a can of worms. I don't want anything to do with that stuff.

 

If I had known that this could be volatile, I wouldn't have said anything. =)

[Stephen J. Carden]

Reverse engineering? Who do I know that knows a lot about both the law and reverse engineering?.....hmm, someone who has a username like that......hmmm.....

 

How the software is to be used as shareware depends one how the Author publishs it. I am shure you have seen this on the PC

 

When the software preforms setup you have a screen of thing you can or can not do and you must agree to the conditions befour the software installs.

 

What Bob Klaas and I did when you purchased a license seat and you agreed with the conditions just by opening the envelope. Before K-Products started selling the program Keith would sell you the program and you owned that copy of the program. This is why there were so many mods written when Keith set the terms up. Once K-Products started selling the program if K-Products did not like how you were running your bbs or the code you were producing cause problem Bob Klaas could require you to take it off line. Bob Never did that but the terms of the software did allow for that. Now here was the twist. K-Products rule only applyed to people they sold the nodes to.

 

Now with the internet you have to agree with the terms before you can even download.

 

For this conversation let's use my BBS Express Professional node #47. It was purchased from Keith Ledbetter and Chris King. I had full access to the source code. I wrote code that Keith and wanted to add it to the stock bbs for resale. I was able to write third party command file that I could sell myself. (There were other programmers that also sold games ECT.) So I had full access to everything. K-Produces Purchased BBS Express Professional from Keith and Chris. Keith informed K-Products that I had all copies of all there source I was not under any contract or none-disclosure agreement. My Agreement was with Keith so K-Products had to live with the fact I have source, I know how to program. K-Products approached me wanting me to sign a contract, (same thing as the click box do you agree) I never signed any contract or non-disclosure agreement. Others that wanted to program for their bbs did. I wrote the programs that I did for BBS Express Professional because I enjoyed the programming, and I meet a ton of really nice people. The sysops where in every city in America and if I was on travel for work and I was within driving distance I would go and meet the sysops in person. So while I never made money from BBS Express Professional compared to the dollars I put in, the Atari 8-bit community has provided me with friends that have lasted for 25 years. I think there is now way to put a dollar value on that. Sorry I got of on a tangent!

 

 

SO if the Shareware publisher requires you to remove or pay a fee after a certain amount of time they must state that or any our requests like disassembling... You Get the Idea.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Stephen J. Carden

[Curt Vendel]

Can I ask the simplest question -

 

There are sources to various Atari DOS versions, why not use that as a basis to just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS that is specifically opensource and PD, no one owns it, no one holds a copyright to it, no one gets into a fight over it --- in other words - a Linux type model.

 

This would solve all of these petty bickering fights and put the whole nonsense of SpartaDOS not just to rest, but 6 feet under and we all move on.

 

I posted up QDOS and other versions of Atari DOS sources, there is plenty there to take the needed core functionality for DOS and just do a new "DUP" that is command line like SpartaDOS.

 

 

Curt

[drac030]

There are sources to various Atari DOS versions, why not use that as a basis to just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS

 

AtariDOS source, esp. QDOS, is useless to recreate SpartaDOS, because they have nothing in common. I don't know if you noticed, but they first of all use completely different filesystems. This would be like trying to convert a cat into a dog.

[+bob1200xl]

Where are these DOS files posted, Curt? I'm looking for DOS 2.0 DUP. Is it available?

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

Can I ask the simplest question -

 

There are sources to various Atari DOS versions, why not use that as a basis to just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS that is specifically opensource and PD, no one owns it, no one holds a copyright to it, no one gets into a fight over it --- in other words - a Linux type model.

 

This would solve all of these petty bickering fights and put the whole nonsense of SpartaDOS not just to rest, but 6 feet under and we all move on.

 

I posted up QDOS and other versions of Atari DOS sources, there is plenty there to take the needed core functionality for DOS and just do a new "DUP" that is command line like SpartaDOS.

 

 

Curt

[walktari]

Can I ask the simplest question ...just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS that is specifically opensource and PD, no one owns it, no one holds a copyright to it, no one gets into a fight over it --- in other words - a Linux type model.

 

This would be an extremely interesting approach. A DOS which should be SD compatible, available as disk based version, supporting new hardware, without copyright struggle and is open source. Many people would appreciate that.

[Curt Vendel]

Hi Bob,

 

 

 

Here is the Corvus modified sources for Atari DOS 2.0D, those should be of help.

 

 

CORVUS.zip

 

Curt

 

Where are these DOS files posted, Curt? I'm looking for DOS 2.0 DUP. Is it available?

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

Can I ask the simplest question -

 

There are sources to various Atari DOS versions, why not use that as a basis to just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS that is specifically opensource and PD, no one owns it, no one holds a copyright to it, no one gets into a fight over it --- in other words - a Linux type model.

 

This would solve all of these petty bickering fights and put the whole nonsense of SpartaDOS not just to rest, but 6 feet under and we all move on.

 

I posted up QDOS and other versions of Atari DOS sources, there is plenty there to take the needed core functionality for DOS and just do a new "DUP" that is command line like SpartaDOS.

 

 

Curt

[Stephen J. Carden]

Errm,

 

1) quoting something from Steve: "...SpartaDOS was made freeware by Mike Holman himself..."

 

Well, afaik all disk-based SpartaDOS versions by FTE were released as shareware - not freeware, Steve, weren`t they ?!?

 

2) quoting something from MetalGuy: "...When Mike Holman bought ICD's 8-bit product line, he released SpartaDos 3.2 as shareware.. This opened the door legally for the decompilation/reverse engineering of any of the 3.2 versions of Spartados..."

 

Hmm, shareware does not automatically mean open source - so it is not always/automatically legal to decompile or reverse-engineer shareware - or is it ?!? And err, did Mike Holman say or note anywhere, that the shareware versions of SpartaDOS can be decompiled or reverse-engineered ?!?

 

3) Another quote from MetalGuy: "...At that time, Steve Carden had a copy fo the source code for Spartados 3.32c, a never released version of spartados, that Mike Gustavson had given him years previous to FTe's aquisition of ICD's stuff.. It was from this source code that SpartaDOS 3.3a,b,and c were built and advanced. Lance may have paid Bob for the "rights" to these compiled versions of the DOS, but the plain fact of the matter is that Bob never owned the rights to begin with.."

 

Hmm, Mike Gustavson gave Steve the sourcecode of SpartaDOS 3.32c - did Mike have any rights to do so ?!? Even if he was the author of that version (or of the whole SpartaDOS itself) it does not nescessarily mean he has the right to give away the source - since ICD then had the copyright to SpartaDOS, this friendly give-away by Mike could have been illegal (except ICD had told Mike officially to do that)...

 

Second, did Steve have any official contract (or something similar) by the copyright-owner ICD or later FTE to use the sourcecode of 3.32c and program a better/newer version of SpartaDOS ?!? Otherwise the use of the sourcecode for a "new" program would have been illegal. And if there was some kind of contract (or something similar), was there some word about the status of the new/to-be-released SpartaDOS 3.3 (only bundled with BBS-Express-Pro, freeware, shareware, fully commercial product,) or was that completely left to the author ?!?

 

Note: This is not to attack anyone of you (I am sorry if it sounds like that) - I am just curious about it...

-Andreas Koch.

 

P.S.: Was it Mike Holman or Mike Hohman ?!? Here in Germany they always wrote Mike Hohman...

 

Mike Gustavson and Tom Harker owned ICD. (Over the years I have lost contact with Mike as well as other good friends) As far as ICD and the Atari 8-bit Mike was ICD. Mike designed SpartaDos 1.0 to 3.2d and SDX 4.0 ver 19, US Doubler, 810 archiver, MIO, r-time8, and the PRC. Keith Ledbetter wrote the SpartaDos Tool Kit execpt for Diskrx and Cleanup.com.

 

Just so everyone knows I DO NOT OWN SpartaDos! The last legal owner I am aware of the classic SpartaDos and SDX was FTe. The contract between ICD and FTe was for there entire Atari 8-bit line. I have made mods from a dissassembled SpartaDos version 3.2c that Mike Gustavson gave me. SpartaDos 3.3? in Short terms It IS a hack. This hack was not commissioned by any company. Ken Ames and I did this so our hardware was supported. I do own all the programs I have ever written for the Atari 8-bit in source code format. The programs written for the PC are owned by United States DOE in all forms. Several of my programs are owned in compiled format by others; namely BBS Express Professional. I am not bound by any non-disclosure agreement for any of my Atari Code. IBM PC code is a different story.

 

Steve

[Stephen J. Carden]

Can I ask the simplest question -

 

There are sources to various Atari DOS versions, why not use that as a basis to just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS that is specifically opensource and PD, no one owns it, no one holds a copyright to it, no one gets into a fight over it --- in other words - a Linux type model.

 

This would solve all of these petty bickering fights and put the whole nonsense of SpartaDOS not just to rest, but 6 feet under and we all move on.

 

I posted up QDOS and other versions of Atari DOS sources, there is plenty there to take the needed core functionality for DOS and just do a new "DUP" that is command line like SpartaDOS.

 

 

Curt

Do not need to recreate it. I already have it. it is called RealDos!

 

Steve

[+bf2k+]

Can I ask the simplest question -

 

There are sources to various Atari DOS versions, why not use that as a basis to just write a SpartaDOS-like DOS that is specifically opensource and PD, no one owns it, no one holds a copyright to it, no one gets into a fight over it --- in other words - a Linux type model.

 

This would solve all of these petty bickering fights and put the whole nonsense of SpartaDOS not just to rest, but 6 feet under and we all move on.

 

I posted up QDOS and other versions of Atari DOS sources, there is plenty there to take the needed core functionality for DOS and just do a new "DUP" that is command line like SpartaDOS.

 

 

Curt

Do not need to recreate it. I already have it. it is called RealDos!

 

Steve

 

Is RealDos opensource?

[+CharlieChaplin]

Hello Stephen,

 

can you be so kind and upload RealDOS here at atari-age or give a link where one can download it ?!?

And please let us know is RealDOS Freeware, PD , Shareware, open source or what ?!?

 

-Andreas Koch.

[walktari]

Hi there,

 

after I have tested RealDOS with my app (thanks to Steve for allowing this) I can really recommend this DOS. It works very well and is supporting modern hardwrae. It even can detect if it is running within an emulator. I've not seen this with any other DOS. So, give it a try and support Steve with his project!

 

Gtx

[flashjazzcat]

Delighted to try it if I could find it. Why don't we write a new open-source FMS and call it KUDOS?

 

 

 

[Atari8guy]

RealDOS appears to be Shareware, but it scrolls by so fast I only just found that out myself....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do find it useful however, so I just registered it myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

Well, at least it's not a crippled evaluation version (I think that's a bit rich for the 8-bit in this day and age). Surely more donations might be forthcoming if we knew where to get hold of RealDOS?

 

 

 

[Triads]

Well, at least it's not a crippled evaluation version (I think that's a bit rich for the 8-bit in this day and age). Surely more donations might be forthcoming if we knew where to get hold of RealDOS?

 

Just email him and kindly ask for a copy, thats how i got mine..

 

sjcarden@bellsouth.net

[flashjazzcat]

Just email him and kindly ask for a copy, thats how i got mine..

 

sjcarden@bellsouth.net

Will do - thanks.

[+Philsan]

Perhaps I am wrong but aren't forums visited by spiders too?

In this case it would be a good idea to remove Steve's email address to avoid him spam.