The King of Kong

[HatefulGravey]

Last time I looked into it the MAME scores were much higher then the actual hardware scores.

 

MAME high scores will always be second rate to the arcade high scores. MAME allows you to use your own controls and tweak the controller settings which you normally cannot do on an arcade cabinet. Also consider that the majority of (if not all) MAME records are performed in private where there is significantly less pressure versus breaking an arcade world record in a public arcade.

 

As a MAME record holder myself, I never state that "I am the Tail Gunner World Record holder" so as to not take credit away from the "true" Tail Gunner champion who did it on the arcade cabinet. I am the "Tail Gunner (MAME) Twin Galaxies World Record holder" as there are other entities that track MAME and arcade scores.

 

Wow, you really didn't read what I posted did you? I said there was an advantage to having your own controls.

 

Even if you have your own controls this does not mean you can't learn to use the standard controls, and if certainly doesn't mean you have less understanding of the game. Understanding the game and the patterns of the game is a large chunk of playing at world record level. Well that and playing games no one else plays or has set a score for. Atleast thats how Brian Kuh does it.

 

I do agree that MAME scores are less important however. I also think that it wont be long before we see more and more MAME score and less and less arcade scores. The machines are simply getting harder and harder to find, and harder to find parts for. I'm sure someone will continue to make parts for them but the prices will go up once there are only 1 or 2 people making them, and then they are way to far out of the reach of most players.

 

And when it comes to setting arcade or MAME records my main concern the core TG players coming together to call me a cheat like they do others just for breaking one of their records. Inspecting a board is a little much to me, and throwing it out becuase of who game it to you is something way beyong screwed up. They weren't looking for a good player, they were taking the good players they could get. What they were looking for was a way to call someone a cheat for breaking a record they didn't think could be broken.

 

And while I'm already on that topic I read something recently about the first take from Steve. The claim is Billy never saw that tape, but they wont comment on how much of the infomation collected during the confirmation period was given to Billy. I would think just enough to clue him into a new way to earn points.

[VectorGamer]

Last time I looked into it the MAME scores were much higher then the actual hardware scores.

 

MAME high scores will always be second rate to the arcade high scores. MAME allows you to use your own controls and tweak the controller settings which you normally cannot do on an arcade cabinet. Also consider that the majority of (if not all) MAME records are performed in private where there is significantly less pressure versus breaking an arcade world record in a public arcade.

 

As a MAME record holder myself, I never state that "I am the Tail Gunner World Record holder" so as to not take credit away from the "true" Tail Gunner champion who did it on the arcade cabinet. I am the "Tail Gunner (MAME) Twin Galaxies World Record holder" as there are other entities that track MAME and arcade scores.

 

Wow, you really didn't read what I posted did you?

 

Sweet...

 

Even if you have your own controls this does not mean you can't learn to use the standard controls

 

A lot of people will use MAME to "train" for the real deal: tournaments or record breaking attempts on authentic cabinets. In that regard, it would be to one's advantage to use controls that are as close as possible to the arcade cabinet for the respective game. Other than that, if someone is just playing MAME to break records then there is no incentive to play on controls that for them are not the best to use.

 

My preference is to use authentic controls on my MAME cabinets to replicate the arcade experience as I remember back in the late 70s and early-to-mid 80s.

 

I do agree that MAME scores are less important however. I also think that it wont be long before we see more and more MAME score and less and less arcade scores. The machines are simply getting harder and harder to find, and harder to find parts for. I'm sure someone will continue to make parts for them but the prices will go up once there are only 1 or 2 people making them, and then they are way to far out of the reach of most players.

 

That only makes sense. Repairing monitors won't be a problem but the PCBs will be and I don't think that's a shock there. There are talented people out there restoring cabinets and they are just as handy making cabinets from scratch and painting the artwork as they are with a soldering iron and knowledge of electronics.

 

The average price of a showroom quality cabinet is $1200. Cabinets like Computer Space and Death Race, which cannot be emulated in MAME, are currently fetching 3 times more than that.

 

In my mind, if the PCBs can be mass produced as they were in 1980 then they can be mass produced in 2010 in order to preserve these games. And again, no surprise here, the cost to produce these will be passed onto the customer. For argument's sake, let's say they are then called "reproduction cabinets" and cost $5000 a piece which would be over 400% increase in what is now the average price of an authentic cabinet. Then does the average value of an authentic cabinet increase by 800% just because it is what it is? And what about cabinets like Pepper II, which would probably not considered cost effective to reproduce? Does the value of an "obscure" title increase 1600%?

 

Who knows - just food for thought. On the other hand, the person that is not a diehard collector and just wants a cabinet in their man cave will most likely opt for a multi-board like those 48-in-1, for example. I've seen those for around $2,200.

 

In any event, there may not even be an interest in years to come and may not even be cost effective.

 

And on the comment of only 1 or 2 people left restoring cabinets: that is why those that are knowledgeable should consider mentoring the next generation so that they can carry on this hobby. It may or may not be a lucrative trade in the future but I have to believe that some money can be had on the side. If I could do it over again, I would've gotten a degree in electronics as well as a degree in IT. And while some folks would say "oh, you're never too old to learn" the truth is that I'm not as sharp in absorbing content like I was 15 years ago. I could give it the old college try but I wouldn't be surprised of the results.

 

Moving along...

 

And when it comes to setting arcade or MAME records my main concern the core TG players coming together to call me a cheat like they do others just for breaking one of their records. Inspecting a board is a little much to me, and throwing it out becuase of who game it to you is something way beyong screwed up.

 

Recording arcade attempts is a pain in the butt. I tried it and I've decided to just play in tournaments and have Aurcade.com log my scores.

 

For example, these are the Twin Galaxies settings for Monaco GP: Game Timer: 90; 1 Life Is Awarded For Every 2,000 Points Successfully Attained

 

I have a Monaco GP cab in my Retrocade and if you are familiar with the cabaret cabinet they are one of a kind: they have a digital display scoreboard and the score is not maintained on the monitor itself. It's pretty hard to cheat I would think.

 

Additionally, with the settings listed above, it is pretty obvious because the game starts with 90 seconds on the clock and you can see my bonus life awarded every 2K points.

 

On top of that, the game cannot be emulated.

 

I submitted a video of a performance which was 8,882 points. While this is not a world record, it is still good for second place which means my score is still better than some of the other scores and should be recognized. Incidentally, the record on this game cannot be broken as the scoring stops at 9,999.

 

My score was rejected because my video did not show me moving all my cabinets around and taking off the back cover to show the circuit boards. I felt it was ridiculous to do so given the game that it was and the other reasons I listed above. Because my score was rejected, it really turned me off to even bother recording private performances anymore.

[HatefulGravey]

You want we should meet at Fun Spot and see to it that your score is reconsidered? I'm sure friendly conversation, a bat and some screws might help things along.

 

Do you think these "reproduction boards" would be viewed in the same way older boards are, or would they fall into the "gooey substance" realm of boards like Steve's first board?

 

I just finished KoK again, the thread made me do it! I still don't much care for Billy, but Brian Kuh really stood out as more of a butthat then I thought the first few times. Also having the time line explained better in reading about the movie makes a difference. The details they left out have a big impact on the movie. Shame of the editors for this for confusing this point in gaming history like that. They could have made a great film using the facts too.

Edited August 27, 2010 by HatefulGravey

[VectorGamer]

You want we should meet at Fun Spot and see to it that your score is reconsidered? I'm sure friendly conversation, a bat and some screws might help things along.

 

People at Funspot were simply recording their games and Twin Galaxies was accepting them. They showed on the video that they were at Funspot and that was good enough for the refs to accept the scores.

 

I don't know exactly when I will be at Funspot again. There is a tournament in November but I have no other details. I will definitely be back next June, which is when I recommend you make the trip, for what will be Funspot XIII. I recommend participating in the tournament no matter what your skill level is. For me, I know I won't win the tournament but I have fun playing the games and seeing how I rank on the individual games.

 

If you could bring some chloroform with you that would be great...

 

 

 

Do you think these "reproduction boards" would be viewed in the same way older boards are, or would they fall into the "gooey substance" realm of boards like Steve's first board?

 

They will most definitely fit into the "gooey substance" boards. However, I would expect that reproduction boards would tip their hand in some way that they are indeed reproductions: chips were made by x manufacturer on original boards but are now y manufacturer on reproduction boards.

 

 

I just finished KoK again, the thread made me do it! I still don't much care for Billy, but Brian Kuh really stood out as more of a butthat then I thought the first few times. Also having the time line explained better in reading about the movie makes a difference. The details they left out have a big impact on the movie. Shame of the editors for this for confusing this point in gaming history like that. They could have made a great film using the facts too.

 

The timeline is all messed up. They don't even mention the fact that Tim Sczerby held the record at the time Steve Wiebe broke it.

[NE146]

The timeline is all messed up. They don't even mention the fact that Tim Sczerby held the record at the time Steve Wiebe broke it.

 

That's because that would ruin their implied story of Billy Mitchell being the devious king to dethrone. So why would they mention the fact that he wasn't even the record holder.

[Rik]

I watched the Metal band Metallica's Documentary\Movie, "Some Kind Of Monster", a little while ago.In it there was an interview between Lars Ulrich, (Metallica drummer), and Dave Mustaine from Megadeth, who is also a former Metallica guitarist as well.The interview seemed to make Dave look like the bad guy, which was the other way around.Lars did some seriously disrespectful things to Dave in the past, i won't go into details, trust me, the back stabbing was unbelievable!.Lars left the interview crying, after being confronted by Dave about all the crap he pulled, much of which was CUT OUT of DVD.The movie producers admitted to editing the film like crazy to make Dave look like the arrogant asshole bad guy, and Lars the good guy, after all it was his film, about his band Metallica, so naturally they'll make him out to be the "LIKABLE" guy.This movie was another good example of what you see on TV about people's character should not be taken as %100 truth, its just not fair to the people involved.I'll judge a person MYSELF after I've spent time to KNOW them, not what TV makes them out to be.Another example or how sickening TV can be at slandering people.This type of thing goes on all the time everywhere on TV.I really believe this was the case with Bill Mitchell.

[VectorGamer]

Back on topic...

 

I was on the phone today with someone who has a prominent role in the movie King of Kong...they agreed, as they had time, to tie up some loose ends that have been brought up in this thread on the condition that I will not name the source. No problem...

 

This individual stated in our conversation, that although the producers of the film have sensationalized the subject, that the film is "about 96% accurate."

 

So, what I will do is go back through this thread and copy/paste into an email some of the issues that have been raised. I know some of the issues revolved around timelines and the film saying one thing and Walter Day another in his "official statement."

 

If there are other questions you have that you want me to pass along post it here and explicitly state that you would like me to forward the question on to that individual.

[MitchSchaft]

I'd like to know the deal behind why Billy was so standoff-ish when bumping in to Wiebe in the arcade for the first time. It reminded me of the WWF, lol.

[Vic George 2K3]

Billy Mitchell really did come off as unsportsmanlike in the movie, and somewhat hypocritcal of his own comments regarding being ready to prove yourself in the public arena when called to do so. It just seems like he's avoiding the fact that his butt has been handed to him by someone who recently upstaged him.

[phaxda]

Re-viewed King of Kong on Netflix Friday for my wife's benefit. She had some comments.

 

On Billy Mitchell: "That guy is creepy..."

 

On Brian Kuh: "Are you kidding me? The guy is the douchiest douche, and there's a lot to choose from here..."

 

On Steve Wiebe's wife: "That woman is a saint."

 

Overall, though, she really liked the movie, which was somewhat surprising.

[HatefulGravey]

If we have people we can ask and get good information I would love to know just how much of Steve's game play or tactics Billy was made aware of.

 

It would love to know just how Billy suddenly broke a million after Steve does it, but not before. I know he says he had done it before but that tape was really really funny looking. I wouldn't trust it, and the time line on that tape is also questionable.

 

I would also like to know the reasoning for making the "There are some people here I don't want to spend too much time with" comment in Florida that Billy made looking at the standing right behind Steve. Was there something more there we should know about? I don't think the video could be edited to make that worse then it was. Just unsportsman like and childish.

[Atari Joe]

Billy is insecure and entitled thats all there is to it.

[Rik]

I would of told all those geeks at Twin Galaxies,Funspot, including Walter Day to go f%%k themselves.Steve Wiebe is now considered part of the family .Why he would want to be part of that family, full of 2 faced, gossiping, slandering hypocrites, is beyond me.Steve is none of the above, and a better person than most of those ass puppets.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Rik

[Austin]

I hate to bump old threads, but I figured doing so here would be better than starting a new one.

 

I finally took the initiative to track down this movie and watched it last night for the first time. It was an interesting watch, but I have to admit, it evoked some emotions from me. I was honestly pissed off about some of the situations in the movie (some of which from what I have just read are apparently inaccurate), as well as some of the people in the film. Like someone posted last year, I actually felt sorry for some of those in the scene, especially those on Billy's side of the fence. At the same time though I was disgusted. The level of disrespect and elitism displayed by not just the cronies, but Mitchell himself, was absurd. These are adults, most of which acted like children through and through.

 

Will be tracking down Chasing Ghosts as well shortly. Since King of Kong is five years old now, have there been any other documentaries like this released? Maybe not neccessarily just related to arcade games and competing, but anything regarding games in general.

[MitchSchaft]

Billy is a cool dude in real life. He's not like in the movie so most of that was garbage manipulated by the producers.

[VectorGamer]

Will be tracking down Chasing Ghosts as well shortly. Since King of Kong is five years old now, have there been any other documentaries like this released? Maybe not neccessarily just related to arcade games and competing, but anything regarding games in general.

 

Chasing Ghosts has not yet been released on DVD. You can download it from YouTube.

 

Off the top of my head another is the movie High Score.

[Austin]

Chasing Ghosts has not yet been released on DVD. You can download it from YouTube.

 

Off the top of my head another is the movie High Score.

 

I was able to find Chasing Ghosts last night and watched it. It's pretty good for what it is. I will look into "High Score" like you mentioned as well!

[M.A.M.E Offender]

Last time I looked into it the MAME scores were much higher then the actual hardware scores.

 

MAME high scores will always be second rate to the arcade high scores. MAME allows you to use your own controls and tweak the controller settings which you normally cannot do on an arcade cabinet. Also consider that the majority of (if not all) MAME records are performed in private where there is significantly less pressure versus breaking an arcade world record in a public arcade.

 

As a MAME record holder myself, I never state that "I am the Tail Gunner World Record holder" so as to not take credit away from the "true" Tail Gunner champion who did it on the arcade cabinet. I am the "Tail Gunner (MAME) Twin Galaxies World Record holder" as there are other entities that track MAME and arcade scores.

 

Wow, you really didn't read what I posted did you?

 

Sweet...

 

Even if you have your own controls this does not mean you can't learn to use the standard controls

 

A lot of people will use MAME to "train" for the real deal: tournaments or record breaking attempts on authentic cabinets. In that regard, it would be to one's advantage to use controls that are as close as possible to the arcade cabinet for the respective game. Other than that, if someone is just playing MAME to break records then there is no incentive to play on controls that for them are not the best to use.

 

My preference is to use authentic controls on my MAME cabinets to replicate the arcade experience as I remember back in the late 70s and early-to-mid 80s.

 

I do agree that MAME scores are less important however. I also think that it wont be long before we see more and more MAME score and less and less arcade scores. The machines are simply getting harder and harder to find, and harder to find parts for. I'm sure someone will continue to make parts for them but the prices will go up once there are only 1 or 2 people making them, and then they are way to far out of the reach of most players.

 

That only makes sense. Repairing monitors won't be a problem but the PCBs will be and I don't think that's a shock there. There are talented people out there restoring cabinets and they are just as handy making cabinets from scratch and painting the artwork as they are with a soldering iron and knowledge of electronics.

 

The average price of a showroom quality cabinet is $1200. Cabinets like Computer Space and Death Race, which cannot be emulated in MAME, are currently fetching 3 times more than that.

 

In my mind, if the PCBs can be mass produced as they were in 1980 then they can be mass produced in 2010 in order to preserve these games. And again, no surprise here, the cost to produce these will be passed onto the customer. For argument's sake, let's say they are then called "reproduction cabinets" and cost $5000 a piece which would be over 400% increase in what is now the average price of an authentic cabinet. Then does the average value of an authentic cabinet increase by 800% just because it is what it is? And what about cabinets like Pepper II, which would probably not considered cost effective to reproduce? Does the value of an "obscure" title increase 1600%?

 

Who knows - just food for thought. On the other hand, the person that is not a diehard collector and just wants a cabinet in their man cave will most likely opt for a multi-board like those 48-in-1, for example. I've seen those for around $2,200.

 

In any event, there may not even be an interest in years to come and may not even be cost effective.

 

And on the comment of only 1 or 2 people left restoring cabinets: that is why those that are knowledgeable should consider mentoring the next generation so that they can carry on this hobby. It may or may not be a lucrative trade in the future but I have to believe that some money can be had on the side. If I could do it over again, I would've gotten a degree in electronics as well as a degree in IT. And while some folks would say "oh, you're never too old to learn" the truth is that I'm not as sharp in absorbing content like I was 15 years ago. I could give it the old college try but I wouldn't be surprised of the results.

 

Moving along...

 

And when it comes to setting arcade or MAME records my main concern the core TG players coming together to call me a cheat like they do others just for breaking one of their records. Inspecting a board is a little much to me, and throwing it out becuase of who game it to you is something way beyong screwed up.

 

Recording arcade attempts is a pain in the butt. I tried it and I've decided to just play in tournaments and have Aurcade.com log my scores.

 

For example, these are the Twin Galaxies settings for Monaco GP: Game Timer: 90; 1 Life Is Awarded For Every 2,000 Points Successfully Attained

 

I have a Monaco GP cab in my Retrocade and if you are familiar with the cabaret cabinet they are one of a kind: they have a digital display scoreboard and the score is not maintained on the monitor itself. It's pretty hard to cheat I would think.

 

Additionally, with the settings listed above, it is pretty obvious because the game starts with 90 seconds on the clock and you can see my bonus life awarded every 2K points.

 

On top of that, the game cannot be emulated.

 

I submitted a video of a performance which was 8,882 points. While this is not a world record, it is still good for second place which means my score is still better than some of the other scores and should be recognized. Incidentally, the record on this game cannot be broken as the scoring stops at 9,999.

 

My score was rejected because my video did not show me moving all my cabinets around and taking off the back cover to show the circuit boards. I felt it was ridiculous to do so given the game that it was and the other reasons I listed above. Because my score was rejected, it really turned me off to even bother recording private performances anymore.

 

wow. What a shame for TG to treat you in such a manner. Why do they insist on deterring people from score submitting so much? I think it is ridiculous.

[Hydro Thunder]

Mild funny note -

 

Just saw Horrible Bosses on DVD the other night - Steve Wiebe of King of Kong fame has a cameo and even has a line in the movie.

No cameo by Billy Mitchell.

 

As to some posts above indicating Billy Mitchell is a cool guy in real life who's simply made to look bad by this movie, uh...

I don't want to get too elitist or fashion police about it, but that simply can't be entirely true based on the guy's hairstyle and tie selection _alone_.

Much less taking into account a lot of what he says and does, no matter how it's framed in the movie. $0.02, just my opinion there.

[VectorGamer]

wow. What a shame for TG to treat you in such a manner. Why do they insist on deterring people from score submitting so much? I think it is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, no biggee...TG isn't important to me anymore

 

 

As to some posts above indicating Billy Mitchell is a cool guy in real life who's simply made to look bad by this movie, uh...

I don't want to get too elitist or fashion police about it, but that simply can't be entirely true based on the guy's hairstyle and tie selection _alone_.

Much less taking into account a lot of what he says and does, no matter how it's framed in the movie. $0.02, just my opinion there.

 

Kinda like when one is an accused pedophile proclaiming innocence then they shouldn't hang out at the playgrounds.

 

This is hilarious...this is part 1 of 3

[acelkin]

I love this movie, it inspired me to try & up my own personal high score a la Mame. I was born in 1970, so I was 11 when DK came out. My high score as a kid was 92,500. Never could break 100K, until now. With all the extra knowledge the movie provided & with youtube & the internet in general, I just last night achieved my highest score ever 420,300. Bested my previous high of 267,900 by 152,400! It was a good night : )

[VectorGamer]

You should consider competing:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1SSctrIgDE

[acelkin]

Yeah, I saw your other post on that & watched Dave's 40,400 score. I"m not a point-presser, but I picked up a few tricks watching him play it. Maybe I'll practice up a bit & give it a whirl. He's playing it on an actual arcade game right?

[VectorGamer]

Yeah, I saw your other post on that & watched Dave's 40,400 score. I"m not a point-presser, but I picked up a few tricks watching him play it. Maybe I'll practice up a bit & give it a whirl. He's playing it on an actual arcade game right?

 

Most likely. I played mine on a 60-in-1 board.

[acelkin]

I forgot to mention something funny about The King of Kong. A good friend of mine had never seen Spinal Tap, Best in Show & A Mighty Wind. He's got similar tastes in movies & humor, so I made him watch them all. Then one night I threw in KOK. I had to tell him over & over again that this movie was 'real'! To this day I still think in the back of his mind he isn't quite sure.

 

I tried the point press challenge, got 26,600. Seems the longer I stay on a level the more likely I'll eventually get killed. My last guy I left a lot of points on the board since I died about 1/2 through the level. So getting better!