Unauthorized copies of ColecoVision homebrew games

[Murph74]

You make some good points, Jess.

 

But the obvious missed point to me is that Thuerer and Miyamoto have significant incentive and resources to create and refine and develop. Homebrewers rarely have that luxury, and certainly don't get that kind of fiscal return no matter the product. Homebrewers also typically *have* to develop already popular properties to make it even a fair gamble that it will turn out worthwhile financially. A lot of it boils down to marketing, and the built in awareness of some of the classic titles coming to the system. How well do you think Squares or Maze Manaic (one of my faves BTW!) have sold compared to Mario Bros or PMC?

 

I know you're just sharing your opinion, and I agree with parts of it, but I don't think developing from-scratch concept on an orphaned system with such a small user base makes much sense unless it's strictly a hobby level effort and you aren't worried about the money involved. To me, a lot of the fun is in seeing what *could* have been done in the day by programmers if they'd had the tools and resources we have today. And the authentic look and feel of titles like J-F, Pixelboy and Eduardo produce-- as if they were store bought in 1983-- is just part of the "Wow! Who knew you could do that on this machine!" excitement that comes with playing each anticipated homebrew release. And that's also part of the reason why I'm not a huge proponent of the expansion hardware forthcoming-- I prefer to see what the stock machine is capable of.

 

But again, we're simply talking personal preference. And that's even further off topic that the original issue of this thread... and that goes back to people selling roms they had no right to sell, or no hand in bringing to a particular system. While I agree the IP rights may not be on the up-and-up, the old saying "honor among thieves" comes to mind. I don't use that to label anyone, because I believe the homebrewers aren't some underground, hidden faction of programming piracy. I believe that they are more huge fans of the given titles and simple enjoy the challenge of programming said title for a system. Does that make it right, or legal? No. But it's also a rather victimless crime to the IP holder, and the point can be made that without a victim, there is no crime-- especially on this small scale.

 

Conversely, the Homebrewer *CAN* be directly and adversely affected. I'm not speculating on anyone's financial position, but I dare say if someone ties up even a meager $2,000 in publishing a title and someone does something to negatively impact that investment (like in this case of selling the roms), then there is an issue that needs to be addressed and hopefully resolved. I know of no one who would simply sit back and say "Huh. I was hoping no one would copy and sell that out from under me. Oh well. Life goes on, goodbye $2,000 and all the time I took to make that game. What game should I make next?" I think for most it would be more of an agressive angry response related to why bother in the future and what can I do to recoup my current investment.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Murph74

[retroillucid]

Conversely, the Homebrewer *CAN* be directly and adversely affected. I'm not speculating on anyone's financial position, but I dare say if someone ties up even a meager $2,000 in publishing a title and someone does something to negatively impact that investment (like in this case of selling the roms), then there is an issue that needs to be addressed and hopefully resolved. I know of no one who would simply sit back and say "Huh. I was hoping no one would copy and sell that out from under me. Oh well. Life goes on, goodbye $3,000 and all the time I took to make that game. What game should I make next?" I think for most it would be more of an agressive angry response related to why bother in the future and what can I do to recoup my current investment.

 

I'm French, my English is very limited (you already notice don't you )

But, that exactly how I feel actually

[lucifershalo]

Yes, explain how you "help" the situation by shutting down the website

do you think that you are punishing the guys who want to pirate your work??

No! You are punishing "us" the one that are supporting the homebrew community

 

I have 21 homebrew vectrex games

1 homebrew intellivision games

8 homebrew colecovision games

47 homebrew 2600 games

10 homebrew 7800 games

 

do you think I support the homebrew scene(s) or not?

and now guess what? I can't buy your work....who is the victim?

i can understand you are upset

but think about this message.....

 

you are not stealing other companies copyrighted works

you are reviving games that nobody cares about (talking about protecting their copyright, not about interest)

[retroillucid]

Yes, explain how you "help" the situation by shutting down the website

do you think that you are punishing the guys who want to pirate your work??

No! You are punishing "us" the one that are supporting the homebrew community

 

I have 21 homebrew vectrex games

1 homebrew intellivision games

8 homebrew colecovision games

47 homebrew 2600 games

10 homebrew 7800 games

 

do you think I support the homebrew scene(s) or not?

and now guess what? I can't buy your work....who is the victim?

i can understand you are upset

but think about this message.....

 

you are not stealing other companies copyrighted works

you are reviving games that nobody cares about (talking about protecting their copyright, not about interest)

 

I really like your point of view, you're right

I'll re-open it

I don't want to punish all of those who support the CV Homebrew Scene

[lucifershalo]

Ok, one battle won

thanks , Retroillucid...

 

and by the same

thanks to all of you: Eduardo, Daniel, Luc,Scott (still hoping that he will come back to the CV homebrew scene),......and Albert of course

thanks for your work, time,effort

we appreciate it even if sometimes we sound like greedy selfish collectors ....mine....precious!....

[newcoleco]

Yes, explain how you "help" the situation by shutting down the website

do you think that you are punishing the guys who want to pirate your work??

No! You are punishing "us" the one that are supporting the homebrew community

It doesn't help. They are all impulsive because of the shock. Give them time.

 

I have 21 homebrew vectrex games

1 homebrew intellivision games

8 homebrew colecovision games

47 homebrew 2600 games

10 homebrew 7800 games

 

do you think I support the homebrew scene(s) or not?

Yes, you're supporting the homebrew scene and it's greatly appreciate. Thank you!

 

and now guess what? I can't buy your work....who is the victim?

Both, homebrewers and fans of homebrew games are the victims.

 

i can understand you are upset

but think about this message.....

 

you are not stealing other companies copyrighted works

you are reviving games that nobody cares about (talking about protecting their copyright, not about interest)

The "nobody cares about" isn't true. Just think of what happend here at AtariAge when Atari asked to rename some of the homebrew games because of the illegal use of their trademarks. And so far we are talking in this thread about games using trademarks by Konami and Nintendo... and I've heard that many companies including Nintendo do not laugh regarding using their copyrighted material, specially when money is involved.

 

I highly suggest to stop saying that we lose money while talking about rom files being copied and distributed, otherwise we may get the attention of people we don't want involved in this situation. Let's solve this issue between us.

Edited July 31, 2010 by newcoleco

[the.golden.ax]

Yes, explain how you "help" the situation by shutting down the website

do you think that you are punishing the guys who want to pirate your work??

No! You are punishing "us" the one that are supporting the homebrew community

 

I have 21 homebrew vectrex games

1 homebrew intellivision games

8 homebrew colecovision games

47 homebrew 2600 games

10 homebrew 7800 games

 

do you think I support the homebrew scene(s) or not?

and now guess what? I can't buy your work....who is the victim?

i can understand you are upset

but think about this message.....

 

you are not stealing other companies copyrighted works

you are reviving games that nobody cares about (talking about protecting their copyright, not about interest)

 

 

Yes, I am posting this in reply because I like to brag

 

 

 

This is just the 2600 stuff. I don't have photos of the 5200, 7800, and CV on hand.

 

AX

[opcode]

I had already decided to quit when my wife told me it wouldn't be fair with the people that have supported me over the years. She said I would in fact be penalizing them. I thought she made a good point. On the other hand I confess that I am just tired of all the bulls*** I must face to publish games, the business part of the hobby just killed it for me. So her suggestion was that I should take a break and stay away until I can calm down and better plan what I am going to do next. So be it.

I am going to shut down the website for the time being, I won't be visiting the forums at least for a while and get disconnected of the whole scene, just like the good old times, when I was programming for my own pleasure and enjoying it very much. During this time I can decide what I am going to do next, and how I am going to do it.

About the Super Game Module name thing, I would like to apologize to the 7800 "Jedi Consul" about my comments, especially Curt and Mark. You guys really didn't deserve it, so you have my sincere apologies. I especially don’t want people to think I was accusing Curt of any act of malice, Curt integrity is beyond questioning, period. My comments were purely the hasty result of too much stress in a short period of time, and again, I apologize for being such a hot head. Worst of all, I am sure it would have been easily solved in private. One day I will learn to control my temper and my mouth…

Finally, pboland (aka Mr Example) and supporters: who said I need your money. You see, the good thing about this hobby is that I can filter my customers. And I don't need to be Mr Nice Guy; you don't like me, your problem.

[NIAD]

I had already decided to quit when my wife told me it wouldn't be fair with the people that have supported me over the years. She said I would in fact be penalizing them. I thought she made a good point. On the other hand I confess that I am just tired of all the bulls*** I must face to publish games, the business part of the hobby just killed it for me. So her suggestion was that I should take a break and stay away until I can calm down and better plan what I am going to do next. So be it.

I am going to shut down the website for the time being, I won't be visiting the forums at least for a while and get disconnected of the whole scene, just like the good old times, when I was programming for my own pleasure and enjoying it very much. During this time I can decide what I am going to do next, and how I am going to do it.

About the Super Game Module name thing, I would like to apologize to the 7800 "Jedi Consul" about my comments, especially Curt and Mark. You guys really didn't deserve it, so you have my sincere apologies. I especially don’t want people to think I was accusing Curt of any act of malice, Curt integrity is beyond questioning, period. My comments were purely the hasty result of too much stress in a short period of time, and again, I apologize for being such a hot head. Worst of all, I am sure it would have been easily solved in private. One day I will learn to control my temper and my mouth…

Finally, pboland (aka Mr Example) and supporters: who said I need your money. You see, the good thing about this hobby is that I can filter my customers. And I don't need to be Mr Nice Guy; you don't like me, your problem.

 

Maybe you should remove Comic Bakery from the eBay auction.... you got about 15 minutes!!!

[GroovyBee]

About the Super Game Module name thing, I would like to apologize to the 7800 "Jedi Consul" about my comments, especially Curt and Mark. You guys really didn't deserve it, so you have my sincere apologies.

 

Don't worry you haven't offended me in any way. Its entirely understandable given the kicking the Coleco homebrew authors have just received.

[retroillucid]

Like I said earlier...

 

Everything is going too far now

 

Please Stop it!

I'm begging you to stop please!

 

 

[diggs130]

I dont see it as containing any roms.Unless Im missing something in the wording.

 

 

It states images and manuals.

 

 

Eitherway I dont intend on purchasing this zipfile or cd!

[the.golden.ax]

I dont see it as containing any roms.Unless Im missing something in the wording.

 

 

It states images and manuals.

 

 

Eitherway I dont intend on purchasing this zipfile or cd!

 

 

The data is being given in the file. Point blank.

 

Regardless of what the web site says.

 

AX

[Lord Helmet]

I dont see it as containing any roms.Unless Im missing something in the wording.

 

 

It states images and manuals.

 

 

Eitherway I dont intend on purchasing this zipfile or cd!

 

 

The data is being given in the file. Point blank.

 

Regardless of what the web site says.

 

AX

 

 

Not only that, but most of the roms are still in the directory. You just have to type in the proper URL. I was able to grab SI Collection (I already own the game). I tested it just to see.

[jeremysart]

This whole thread is pretty scary.

 

Please guys, don't let this incident split up the scene and leave it shattered. There are too many hard feeling going around right now, and everyone needs to get their heads together.

 

One thing you should sincerely think of however, I SINCERELY doubt as many people have bought Dave's SD package/ CD as many of you think. In all honesty, here are two things to consider:

 

#1 Colecovision Roms are readily available.. freely available, ALL OVER the internet. You can get about every non-homebrew ROM via emuparadise, romnation, or any of the hundred others, as well as entire zips and rars containing every ROM image.. WHY would anyone pay some chump $20 for a fucking zip file, excuse my language.

 

#2 Who is the audience that your homebrew attracts, and is targeted to? Collectors. Hobbyists. Die hard CV fans. Do you for one seconds think that any of the above would rather pay someone for dirty ROM images and cheating you out of your hard work and money as opposed to having the much more priceless and valuable cartridge? I really doubt it.

 

Keep in mind, Atari Age has a great community, whether people are disagreeing at the moment, and arguing due to stress, most of us are on the same page. Everyone knows what David is doing is wrong, 98% of the community will follow that. Most of us here respect the developers here that much.

 

I would like to see that games that I am making box art for hit the shelves.. and not be stopped because of one ignorant person..

[Rev]

This whole thread is pretty scary.

 

Please guys, don't let this incident split up the scene and leave it shattered. There are too many hard feeling going around right now, and everyone needs to get their heads together.

 

One thing you should sincerely think of however, I SINCERELY doubt as many people have bought Dave's SD package/ CD as many of you think. In all honesty, here are two things to consider:

 

#1 Colecovision Roms are readily available.. freely available, ALL OVER the internet. You can get about every non-homebrew ROM via emuparadise, romnation, or any of the hundred others, as well as entire zips and rars containing every ROM image.. WHY would anyone pay some chump $20 for a fucking zip file, excuse my language.

 

#2 Who is the audience that your homebrew attracts, and is targeted to? Collectors. Hobbyists. Die hard CV fans. Do you for one seconds think that any of the above would rather pay someone for dirty ROM images and cheating you out of your hard work and money as opposed to having the much more priceless and valuable cartridge? I really doubt it.

 

Keep in mind, Atari Age has a great community, whether people are disagreeing at the moment, and arguing due to stress, most of us are on the same page. Everyone knows what David is doing is wrong, 98% of the community will follow that. Most of us here respect the developers here that much.

 

I would like to see that games that I am making box art for hit the shelves.. and not be stopped because of one ignorant person..

 

i would pay someone good money for an SD card with all the games loaded onto them. i dont know how to do it myself.

 

 

FOR the record, i only have 2 games that are not original factory releases.i just prefer original carts/games.i never download anything from the internet....ever. no movies.music/games.

 

i only have a 2600 repro of spy hunter and pacman collection. that is all the 'pirated' games i own. i should sell them after this mess....

[newcoleco]

This whole thread is pretty scary.

 

Please guys, don't let this incident split up the scene and leave it shattered. There are too many hard feeling going around right now, and everyone needs to get their heads together.

I've no problem regarding other colecovision homebrewers. It's not because I bring up some informations in a discussion that means something else than the information I'm bringing up. I first responded to Albert suggesting a DCMA claim and I've replied to not do so and why. I don't understand everything like why bringing a story about a module and another about pressure to do something, which I can only presume that these things needed to be said eventually but certainly in private.

 

One thing you should sincerely think of however, I SINCERELY doubt as many people have bought Dave's SD package/ CD as many of you think. In all honesty, here are two things to consider:

 

#1 Colecovision Roms are readily available.. freely available, ALL OVER the internet. You can get about every non-homebrew ROM via emuparadise, romnation, or any of the hundred others, as well as entire zips and rars containing every ROM image.. WHY would anyone pay some chump $20 for a fucking zip file, excuse my language.

Only some CV homebrew rom files are available freely, which include my games.

 

#2 Who is the audience that your homebrew attracts, and is targeted to? Collectors. Hobbyists. Die hard CV fans. Do you for one seconds think that any of the above would rather pay someone for dirty ROM images and cheating you out of your hard work and money as opposed to having the much more priceless and valuable cartridge? I really doubt it.

You've the same idealistic view as myself regarding fans support. I believe in the good judgement of those who enjoy our games, it's one of the reasons why I publish also my rom files.

 

Keep in mind, Atari Age has a great community, whether people are disagreeing at the moment, and arguing due to stress, most of us are on the same page. Everyone knows what David is doing is wrong, 98% of the community will follow that. Most of us here respect the developers here that much.

We do agree regarding the cd-rom that should not be available for sale. We disagree and agree in the way to deal with this situation. It's the rest of the discussion that sounds as "disagreeing at the moment"... with a few things said in a very impulsive way.

 

I would like to see that games that I am making box art for hit the shelves.. and not be stopped because of one ignorant person..

Give time... to be back just fine.

[VectorGamer]

 

The good thing is, people do want original games, no Arcade conversion

 

 

Not true - we want both!

 

Eduardo: you do what you need to do. The selfish side of me wishes that you go forward with your projects like the module and CV2.

Edited July 31, 2010 by rmaerz

[+LS650]

This whole thread is pretty scary.

I had no idea there was so much drama in the ColecoVision scene - for a minute I thought I was in the Jaguar forum!!

[NIAD]

I dont see it as containing any roms.Unless Im missing something in the wording.

 

 

It states images and manuals.

 

 

Eitherway I dont intend on purchasing this zipfile or cd!

 

 

The data is being given in the file. Point blank.

 

Regardless of what the web site says.

 

AX

 

 

Not only that, but most of the roms are still in the directory. You just have to type in the proper URL. I was able to grab SI Collection (I already own the game). I tested it just to see.

 

Opcoce/Eduardo made the Space Invaders Collection and Sky Jaguars rom images files available for free on these very forums so there shouldn't be a problem with those two being available unless Eduardo later asked for them not to be distributed by anyone in rom image format and I don't recall that happening. Now the grey area that this falls into is selling a compilation CD or ZIP with these included, David stated on AtariMax's forum that he is selling the work he did making/organizing screenshots and manuals and that he is throwing in the ROM images. Some people will understand that while others will say that he is selling/taking money for the rom images as well.

 

There are always two sides to everything and usually the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

It's just a sad situation that seems to be getting worse by the minute.

Edited July 31, 2010 by NIAD

[jeremysart]

 

i would pay someone good money for an SD card with all the games loaded onto them. i don't know how to do it myself.

 

 

FOR the record, i only have 2 games that are not original factory releases.i just prefer original carts/games.i never download anything from the internet....ever. no movies.music/games.

 

i only have a 2600 repro of spy hunter and pacman collection. that is all the 'pirated' games i own. i should sell them after this mess....

 

The point is, after knowing that this guy is selling homebrew ROM on the card without the permission of their rightful owners, I don't think many if any at all from here would buy it from him.

 

On the other hand, you really don't know how to get Roms and put them on an SD card? Its pretty easy, you just search the Roms you are looking for, can usually find a zip pack with all the ROM images in it. Get a USB flasher and an SD chip with a Micro SD adapter, put the Micro SD into the USB flasher, put the USB flasher into the PC's USB port, open up My Computer drag the Roms (that you rightfully own) into the flash drive..

 

Its both inexpensive and easy enough for a kid to do... no one needs to pay someone to do it.. and if you want to pay someone to do it because you don't feel like doing it yourself.. would you really pay Dave to do it, after this?

[Rev]

i would pay someone good money for an SD card with all the games loaded onto them. i don't know how to do it myself.

 

 

FOR the record, i only have 2 games that are not original factory releases.i just prefer original carts/games.i never download anything from the internet....ever. no movies.music/games.

 

i only have a 2600 repro of spy hunter and pacman collection. that is all the 'pirated' games i own. i should sell them after this mess....

 

The point is, after knowing that this guy is selling homebrew ROM on the card without the permission of their rightful owners, I don't think many if any at all from here would buy it from him.

 

On the other hand, you really don't know how to get Roms and put them on an SD card? Its pretty easy, you just search the Roms you are looking for, can usually find a zip pack with all the ROM images in it. Get a USB flasher and an SD chip with a Micro SD adapter, put the Micro SD into the USB flasher, put the USB flasher into the PC's USB port, open up My Computer drag the Roms (that you rightfully own) into the flash drive..

 

Its both inexpensive and easy enough for a kid to do... no one needs to pay someone to do it.. and if you want to pay someone to do it because you don't feel like doing it yourself.. would you really pay Dave to do it, after this?

 

really, i am computer illiterate. i was going to order the intv sd cad with all the games preloaded. i feel like i am paying him for a service he provides and not the roms. same goes fo rthe colecovision roms on a card. so yeah, i would pay david for his time to download the roms onto a card.

 

I still prefer the original carts though.

Edited July 31, 2010 by revolutionika

[Jess Ragan]

I think people are just going to have to accept that they won't be making any money selling classic video games. I think I got enough royalties out of Solar Plexus to buy a Big Mac and fries... and not even a large order of fries. You make these games to share them with the community... as a friend pointed out, any money you make on the side is a bonus.

[VectorGamer]

There really is not much difference in loading up a multicart full of ROMs and selling them versus me restoring an arcade cabinet, putting a computer in it loaded with MAME, a frontend and a bunch of ROMs.

 

I know of an arcade owner that questioned why Twin Galaxies is tracking MAME: if you do not own the PCB you cannot "own" the ROM.

 

If I wanted to make a bunch of dough, I would start selling my MAME cabinets loaded up and ready to go. But, I do not because it is illegal. And don't even get started on the Microsoft OS licensing crap!

 

I think selling a MAME cabinet would have many more obstacles: OS license, ROMs, MAME, front ends etc. And I suspect that is why the Netbook Arcade cabinet that was featured on a tech site for auction recently was pulled by eBay. I saw that cabinet demo'd with Ms. Pac-Man and I was like "that's not legal!"

 

But I digress...

 

Are these ROMs on this multicart public domain?

[Murph74]

David stated on AtariMax's forum that he is selling the work he did making/organizing screenshots and manuals and that he is throwing in the ROM images. Some people will understand that while others will say that he is selling/taking money for the rom images as well.

 

There are always two sides to everything and usually the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

I think the truth is pretty obvious-- there'd be no offense taken, and no drama involved if the ROMS (even those released as Public Domnain-- almost every one of those authors is on record as stating their ROMs were NOT ALLOWED to be sold) aren't included. Regardless of what he's stating he's "selling", people are buying based on the whole package. No different than buying a "blank" hard drive on Ebay that just 'happens' to have 10,000 MP3s on it, but you're expected to and agree to format the drive when it arrives to comply with the law. It's an obvious attempt to skirt legalities and justify piracy.

 

I challenge David to sell his info without the ROM images and see what kind of response he gets. There's probably not much interest in the package or his own work without them, I think.