Is Laser Gates really Inner Space?

[RevEng]

Does that happen very much to the homebrewers?

 

Any copy protection in Melody? Can you get to the code in the ARM space?

 

It has happened to some of our venerable developers, though not in recent years that I'm aware of.

 

Regarding ARM on Melody, the water is a little murky for me, so hopefully someone will correct any errors - There's some limited access to the ARM code when it comes to the DPC+ cart format, with custom ARM functions you can make and call from your 6507 code. I'm not aware of any other existing Melody formats that allow creation of ARM code.

 

It's worth mentioning that the supply of Melody boards is limited to certain trusted community members, so using a Melody-only cart format (like DPC+) is copyright protection in itself.

 

I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how most people do view 2600 games, CRT or monitor?

 

I use stella on a PC with keyboard controls for developing or a quick fix, but when I sit down to play I use a 2600/7800 with a joystick, CRT TV, and Harmony cart.

[mkiker2089]

I use a Sears Arcade 2 on an LCD usually. My controller of choice is a Sega Genesis pad but I also have an Epyx 500. CRTs do give a better image for the atari though as they blur the pixels where my LCD gives empty spots. On my PC I use a Dual Shock controller but only to test roms before buying a cartridge. If I'm going to play a PC game (which I don't) it isn't going to be Atari games. That's just not ideal. Why limit PC games to Atari levels. It would be like having a supercomputer and using it only for Pong.

[Andromeda Stardust]

It would be like having a supercomputer and using it only for Pong.

Actually back in the earliest pre-PONG days, that's what they did. Video games got started by bored programmers tinkering with a mainframe computer. Ever heard of Computer Space? I'd really like to be able to emulate it just to see what the fuss was.

[DanOliver]

It's worth mentioning that the supply of Melody boards is limited to certain trusted community members, so using a Melody-only cart format (like DPC+) is copyright protection in itself.

That's what I was thinking but then I heard Stella would fully emulate Melody including ARM code. That lead me to wonder if it was common practice to download homebrewed game Melody carts and posted for use on Stella.

 

Thanks everyone for the equipment insight.

[DanOliver]

I use mine with my Commodore 1084S monitor (click for full, undistorted image):

That's nice and grainy. Kind of strange to me. I'm used to thinking of the CRT gun zipping back and forth. Wonder how a monitor reacts to bugs like too many scan lines, wrong length scan lines. I haven't a clue how the video signal is converted to a monitor signal.

[+SpiceWare]

That's nice and grainy. Kind of strange to me. I'm used to thinking of the CRT gun zipping back and forth. Wonder how a monitor reacts to bugs like too many scan lines, wrong length scan lines. I haven't a clue how the video signal is converted to a monitor signal.

 

The 1084S is a CRT monitor:

 

The grainy pattern you're seeing is probably due to the "scaled down" image that shows up on AtariAge. Click the image to see the full size photo without the scaling artifacts, or click here to see the original photo on my site.

 

I got it with my Amiga 2000HD, in 1991 if I recall correctly (the monitor has a manufacture date of November 1990 stamped on the back). It was designed for the Amiga and earlier Commodore systems (VIC, 64, 128), so it scans at the NTSC rate of 60 Hz vertically and 15.7 kHz horizontally (i.e. on a PC it'll work with CGA, but not VGA. The C=128's 80 column chip output a CGA compatible signal). I used to use it as my TV via a JVC S-VHS VCR deck, the input buttons on the back let me easily select Amiga or VCR input.

 

It can also scan at PAL rates without any problem, I often booted my Amiga at PAL rates for the higher resolution it offered. I also play PAL Atari 2600 and Amiga CD-32 games on it, though the Atari games will have the wrong color. If the scan line count isn't consistent for every frame the picture will jitter.

[Wickeycolumbus]

Inventing your own custom bankswitching would be your best bet for antipiracy measures. I believe the spec for DPC+ is out there, so it wouldn't be too dificult for someone to dump the ROM if they really wanted it. Of course, someone could still dump a custom bankswitched cart, but at least it would make them work for it.

[RevEng]

Inventing your own custom bankswitching would be your best bet for antipiracy measures. I believe the spec for DPC+ is out there, so it wouldn't be too dificult for someone to dump the ROM if they really wanted it. Of course, someone could still dump a custom bankswitched cart, but at least it would make them work for it.

 

Yeah, that's true enough. I was just thinking cart piracy.

 

I tend not to think of emulation as a piracy vector, since I usually give my roms away.

[+stephena]

That's nice and grainy. Kind of strange to me. I'm used to thinking of the CRT gun zipping back and forth. Wonder how a monitor reacts to bugs like too many scan lines, wrong length scan lines. I haven't a clue how the video signal is converted to a monitor signal.

 

Here's the same ROM running in Stella, using the TV effects in 'S-video' mode:

[+stephena]

That's what I was thinking but then I heard Stella would fully emulate Melody including ARM code. That lead me to wonder if it was common practice to download homebrewed game Melody carts and posted for use on Stella.

 

Stella is a developers emulator, so I will include support for every bankswitch scheme that a developer will possibly be using. This includes all the features of Melody, as time goes on.

 

Inventing your own custom bankswitching would be your best bet for antipiracy measures. I believe the spec for DPC+ is out there, so it wouldn't be too dificult for someone to dump the ROM if they really wanted it. Of course, someone could still dump a custom bankswitched cart, but at least it would make them work for it.

 

I personally will not implement any scheme which a developer wants to keep private, nor will I add such code to the mainline codebase. However, as Stella is released under the GPL/v2, I have no control over what others will do. Also, I have no plans to add DRM (of any form) to the emulator. And since it's open-source and GPL, it would be useless to do so anyway.

 

All that being said, I would work with any developer who might need a custom bankswitch scheme created ...

[+SpiceWare]

Here's the same ROM running in Stella, using the TV effects in 'S-video' mode:

 

Hmm, that looks worse than actual S-Video, I don't see any fringing (bleeding?) around the pixels of Activision for instance.

[+stephena]

Hmm, that looks worse than actual S-Video, I don't see any fringing (bleeding?) around the pixels of Activision for instance.

 

Wouldn't that mean it looks better?

 

In any event, this is just one preset. There are 10 adjustables that can be tweaked to get a more accurate output. I only mention it to point out that TV output can be had (or at least approximated) from emulators too.

[DanOliver]

Stella has a TV effects mode...of course it does. Amazing. I think I'll stop asking what Stella can do and just assume it can from now on.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Stella has a TV effects mode...of course it does. Amazing. I think I'll stop asking what Stella can do and just assume it can from now on.

It won't make you waffles and coffee in the morning. But neither will a real Atari, or the upcoming Xbox One!

[almightytodd]

Actually back in the earliest pre-PONG days, that's what they did. Video games got started by bored programmers tinkering with a mainframe computer. Ever heard of Computer Space? I'd really like to be able to emulate it just to see what the fuss was.

 

Install program for a Computer Space "simulator" is here... It's "simulated" not "emulated", because Computer Space was done all in hardware without a microprocessor. Read Curt and Marty's book for the details... ...By the way, the first time I attempted to load this simulator onto my Windows 7 machine with Norton anti-virus, it was flagged as malware; even though I'd been using it for years on XP with no ill effects. I think the code had something in it that attempted to hook into the developer's web-page and report back to him how many times his game was installed. His web page doesn't even exist anymore, so I'm not sure what's up with that...

 

If you really meant to talk about "Space War", I believe the original paper-tape binary has been translated to a ROM file, which can then be loaded into a PDP-1 emulator. The Wikipedia entry for Space War says this:

 

Code simulating Spacewar! has been included with Microsoft XNA Game Studio Express.^[8]

The game is available as PDP-1 source code and in emulation on the web.

 

A version of Spacewar! was developed by Valve and put on Steam to show the capabilities of the Steamworks API. The program is named SteamworksExample.exe, and can be downloaded by going to the url steam://install/480.

[Serious]

Thanks Rom Hunter, but I think the game is inappropriate for this market.

 

All projects I start have to go thru my wife who acts as a kind of manager because to me every project is exciting and I want to do. She does the math. My first pitch, just a VCS game to kick Demon Attack's butt, got shot down. My second pitch was being able to produce follow up carts faster because the power in Melody would allow that and that pitch was in the ball park. Third pitch was if I could get players to help me design a game, in an iterative process, I could make a really good game. A game good enough to cross over to the phone market, not in a huge way, but something. I call it keeping irons in fire. One might hit. Look at Boulder Dash, great game 30 years ago, great game today.

 

Hi Dan,

 

If you end up making almost any kind of a game for the VCS, I can promise you I will be buying it. The idea you've described is so different than anything I've heard of before, I have a hard time imagining it, but it sounds very interesting. I suspect that whatever you do will be really cool.

 

That being said, if you do decide to make a game that will "kick Demon Attack's butt", I would be willing to pay for my copy in advance.

 

Space Cavern was one of my favorite games when I was a kid, and still is, along with Demon Attack. Between the two, I actually prefer Space Cavern, because I like how you have to deal with side attacks (and I find it somewhat annoying how Demon Attack's demons break into little demons and swoop down on you with that high-pitched tweeting sound -- great game otherwise).

[Andromeda Stardust]

Install program for a Computer Space "simulator" is here... It's "simulated" not "emulated", because Computer Space was done all in hardware without a microprocessor. Read Curt and Marty's book for the details... ...By the way, the first time I attempted to load this simulator onto my Windows 7 machine with Norton anti-virus, it was flagged as malware; even though I'd been using it for years on XP with no ill effects. I think the code had something in it that attempted to hook into the developer's web-page and report back to him how many times his game was installed. His web page doesn't even exist anymore, so I'm not sure what's up with that...

 

If you really meant to talk about "Space War", I believe the original paper-tape binary has been translated to a ROM file, which can then be loaded into a PDP-1 emulator. The Wikipedia entry for Space War says this:

 

Code simulating Spacewar! has been included with Microsoft XNA Game Studio Express.^[8]

The game is available as PDP-1 source code and in emulation on the web.

 

A version of Spacewar! was developed by Valve and put on Steam to show the capabilities of the Steamworks API. The program is named SteamworksExample.exe, and can be downloaded by going to the url steam://install/480.

Yeah, I meant Space war.

[DanOliver]

If you end up making almost any kind of a game for the VCS, I can promise you I will be buying it. The idea you've described is so different than anything I've heard of before, I have a hard time imagining it, but it sounds very interesting. I suspect that whatever you do will be really cool.

I appreciate your faith. I feel uncomfortable with the concept of pre-orders. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't think I understand the process or reasons for it. Questions below about this.

 

The current market of 200 potential buyers is fine with me. I think the prices being paid for new games are very reasonable, even generous, and stable. My company model is to sell into niche markets, too small for most people.

 

Normally I try for niches where the product sells a tiny amount, but does it month after month. I also try for products that have a chance to become very popular to make up for the failures. The 2600 market seems to be very reliable but a one time thing. That's making it a difficult pitch. Not a lot of margin for error. Shields are 1, fuel is low, but I still have ammo.

 

Back at VentureVision the risk was huge. Today the risk is very low. Failure wouldn't cause people to go into bankruptcy. That's big plus.

 

I have to really understand the market and think things through.

 

So I'm researching and trying to figure out a new plan that seems viable. My first plan was a total and complete bust and won't be considered any more. Totally my fault. Probably too ambitious, too fast. Maybe a series of games that slowly showed players where I'd like to go would be better. Plus better feed back for me. Written concepts really don't work and I should have known better. Concepts have to be played to know whether they work or not. No way around it. I was trying to take a shortcut.

 

I'll keep asking questions for as long as you'll let me.

 

Why buy a game sight unseen?

I've read about pre-ordering in several threads and am trying to understand this. I haven't experienced one of these sales and bits and pieces are missing from my searches. I've found threads about pre-ordering, and then the lists of who bought each cart, but I'm missing the middle part. Does that all happen via email?

 

I couldn't find Boulder Dash for sale. Limited release or I just can't use Google very well? Boulder Dash looks like a great playing game...is it also considered a collector object?

 

Does anyone know the reason behind the pre-order thing, like is it so someone knows how many labels to order? Or would more carts sell if there was only one chance? Fear of one cart being sold, dumped and posted?

 

Do buyers like the pre-order arrangement or prefer some other method?

 

Does anyone here know if the Melody carts are made to order? I haven't been able to figure out how that all works. I've search through the forums but having no luck and it would take months to read every post. I've searched "publish game" "self-publish". Getting no where. I PMed Albert a while back and haven't heard back. Anyone have a link or who to contact?

 

What would be the attitude of members if a game was published thru some channel other than AtariAge?

 

How much value do you placed on a traditional box? If a game was sold just as a cart and no box. Is it like $50 vs $30? Or collectors want boxes?

 

How about a very untraditional box...could be cool or always uncool?

 

Printed manual or would be an online manual with more be content better? This goes back to collector vs player I think.

 

Over your length of experience would you say the demand for new games has gone up, down, side ways?

 

I prefer not to do a poll. More info in words. Any feedback is appreciated.

[DanOliver]

Space Cavern was one of my favorite games when I was a kid, and still is, along with Demon Attack. Between the two, I actually prefer Space Cavern, because I like how you have to deal with side attacks (and I find it somewhat annoying how Demon Attack's demons break into little demons and swoop down on you with that high-pitched tweeting sound -- great game otherwise).

Who has Rob Fulop's email address?

[+Atari_Warlord]

I think the main reason some releases go the pre-order method is to avoid excess inventory as well as not having to out lay capital for the carts, etc. The community has been burned a number of times on pre-orders so I really prefer only exchanging cash when the product is ready or the seller has consistently shown they can deliver. I'm not overly concerned about boxes, but I would vote to always include a printed manual. I always loved the art work and crazy imaginative stories in the manuals that helped us understand the limited graphics on the screen and made us feel we were saving the world.

[accousticguitar]

My first plan was a total and complete bust and won't be considered any more. Totally my fault. Probably too ambitious, too fast. Maybe a series of games that slowly showed players where I'd like to go would be better. Plus better feed back for me. Written concepts really don't work and I should have known better. Concepts have to be played to know whether they work or not. No way around it. I was trying to take a shortcut.

I don't think you gave your first idea much of a chance but that doesn't mean you came to the wrong conclusion.

 

Why buy a game sight unseen?

I've read about pre-ordering in several threads and am trying to understand this. I haven't experienced one of these sales and bits and pieces are missing from my searches. I've found threads about pre-ordering, and then the lists of who bought each cart, but I'm missing the middle part. Does that all happen via email?

Usually the people interested in purchasing the game will pm the seller. I think partly it helps the seller come up with the cash to produce the game and also lets the seller know exactly how many games to produce. Quite often the games are not sight unseen. Usually there is a demo version (at the very least) floating around somewhere.

 

 

I couldn't find Boulder Dash for sale. Limited release or I just can't use Google very well? Boulder Dash looks like a great playing game...is it also considered a collector object?

Boulder Dash is now sold out and is currently a collector's item.

 

 

Does anyone know the reason behind the pre-order thing, like is it so someone knows how many labels to order? Or would more carts sell if there was only one chance? Fear of one cart being sold, dumped and posted?

I don't think there is much fear of a cart being dumped and then sold. The money is made on the initial sale, and there isn't really a lot of potential money to be made for a re-seller. You could do a limited edition. Some folks do both a limited, numbered edition and an unlimited edition.

 

 

Do buyers like the pre-order arrangement or prefer some other method?

I don't think anyone really prefers pre-orders, but they do like to make sure they get in on the sale. Nobody wants to be left out.

 

 

Does anyone here know if the Melody carts are made to order? I haven't been able to figure out how that all works. I've search through the forums but having no luck and it would take months to read every post. I've searched "publish game" "self-publish". Getting no where. I PMed Albert a while back and haven't heard back. Anyone have a link or who to contact?

Yes they are made to order. Albert is really busy right now so maybe he isn't checking his PMs. He usually gives celebrities (like you) the royal treatment.

 

What would be the attitude of members if a game was published thru some channel other than AtariAge?

Some people self publish and people still buy their games. It's a bit harder on the publicity front though.

 

How much value do you placed on a traditional box? If a game was sold just as a cart and no box. Is it like $50 vs $30? Or collectors want boxes?

That's about right. Some people want boxes and some people don't. Collectors want boxes and players just want the game and manual.

 

How about a very untraditional box...could be cool or always uncool?

I'd say uncool, but that's just me.

 

Printed manual or would be an online manual with more be content better? This goes back to collector vs player I think.

Printed, no contest.

 

 

Over your length of experience would you say the demand for new games has gone up, down, side ways?

I think it is starting to go up, but again that is just my opinion.

[iesposta]

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/189547-atari-2600-boulder-dash-r-announced/

The Atari 2600 Boulder Dash® Volume 1 was quite a unique 10 year project that became officially licensed from First Star Software, Inc., the original company that is still in operation. The game programmers deal with them is that they could sell only 250 copies, paying First Star Software, Inc. for licensing.

 

Pre-Orders:

PacManPlus, who now makes Atari 7800 games (both original and arcade-perfect ports using original arcade rom code to determine movement), usually has a first release from him, with pre-orders through Private Messages and a thread, paying when the game is about to ship. I got Scramble and Moon Cresta that way. Then they went on to be offered in the AtariAge Store and I bought Moon Cresta again because there was a boxed option (and a code fix, but I doubt I will ever see level 75!)

 

Boxes:

Traditional boxes seem to add about $20 (for something most threw away!) and seem labor intensive. Printing, cutting, folding and gluing. I just got a non-traditional box for CGE Adventures, sold through Game Gavel auction site.

[DanOliver]

I don't think you gave your first idea much of a chance but that doesn't mean you came to the wrong conclusion.

I think the big screw up was trying to present it in a forum. A game can't be designed in a froum. The ideas I'll keep for down the road.

 

Some folks do both a limited, numbered edition and an unlimited edition.

I saw a thread like that but couldn't understand that would work. Didn't think to use "limited" and "unlimited" search terms, found a lot now with those, so that's gold.

 

Yes they are made to order. Albert is really busy right now so maybe he isn't checking his PMs. He usually gives celebrities (like you) the royal treatment.

Celebrity? Like the chicks on Bad Girls Club? Woo hoo!

[DanOliver]

iesposta, thanks. I've been reading what I can about Boulder Dash, talk about a classic game. 10 years, lots to read.

 

I'll search for PacManPlus posts.

 

The cd with Adventures gave me an idea...music or radio background chatter to be played while playing the game. Kind of an overlay for your ears. Ever been done? Hadn't run into this release. More reading.

Edited May 30, 2013 by DanOliver

[accousticguitar]

I saw a thread like that but couldn't understand that would work. Didn't think to use "limited" and "unlimited" search terms, found a lot now with those, so that's gold.

Great!

Celebrity? Like the chicks on Bad Girls Club? Woo hoo!

Haha! Any person who programmed Atari 2600 games back in the day is by definition a celebrity at AtariAge.