Is Laser Gates really Inner Space?

[+Random Terrain]

Since this thread will probably die off soon, I thought I would add one more thing for any assembly language or batari Basic programmers who love the Atari 2600 and will read this thread in the future. I'll start with something I have on the batari Basic page:

 

Q. Why do people make Atari 2600 games these days?

 

A. There seems to be three main reasons why people make Atari 2600 games:

1. They want to do something hard to challenge themselves, so they use assembly language.
   __
   
2. They're doing it for school.
   __
   
3. They had an Atari 2600 as a kid and always wanted to make their own Atari 2600 games because there's something special and magical about the graphics and sound effects that other consoles don't have.
   

__

The third type of person will usually want and need every tool, trick, and shortcut they can get. That's why they use batari Basic, Visual batari Basic, and various kernels, minikernels, modules and enhancements.

 

The good news for those who have a special love for the Atari 2600 and want to make games for it is that players no longer need to download an emulator or have a real Atari 2600. Thanks to JAVATARI, anyone can play your games online (on your own web site, not on the JAVATARI web site). Millions of people could potentially play your game if it was publicized properly, not just a few hundred who might buy your cartridges or download the .bin file to play using an emulator offline.

 

If the goal is to get your Atari 2600 game to as many players as possible, JAVATARI is the answer. Players don't even need to be Atari 2600 fans. They'll play your game like they'd play any other free online game. So don't think you'd be wasting your time if you made Atari 2600 games (believing that very few people would play them). If you put in the extra effort to make the most fun, polished, high-quality, original Atari 2600 games that you can, you could end up with more players than you ever thought possible.

 

To be extra-super clear, I'm talking about you making a game and putting the game on your own web site. You could keep it free or put an ad next to it or ask people to give you money through PayPal or something.

[DanOliver]

high voltage, I had fun and learned a lot too. Thanks.

Edited May 27, 2013 by DanOliver

[jaybird3rd]

For whatever it's worth, this conversation—about the tendency to repeatedly recycle old game concepts, and the relative lack of enthusiasm for new and different game ideas—has been going on for quite some time within our little community; see the discussion in this thread for an example.

 

I'm sad to see anyone decide that a new Atari 2600 game idea isn't worth pursuing, especially an idea as intriguing as the ones discussed here, but I think I can understand Mr. Oliver's reasons. Creating a new game is hard work, and the main reward (especially in the Atari 2600 "market," where there is no substantial money to be made these days) is to see the game played and enjoyed by the target audience. If for whatever reason that outcome seems unlikely, it makes it that much more difficult to find the motivation even to start the project, and a lot of potentially great games never get made. Personally, I think that if this situation is to be changed, that process has to begin with a more receptive and appreciative attitude from the audience. It's too bad that we didn't see more of that here.

[DanOliver]

They'll play your game like they'd play any other free online game. So don't think you'd be wasting your time if you made Atari 2600 games (believing that very few people would play them). If you put in the extra effort to make the most fun, polished, high-quality, original Atari 2600 games that you can, you could end up with more players than you ever thought possible.

Good point.

 

Another perspective from one of the dudes doing the work...

For me someone saying they like something that's free has less meaning than someone saying they ate PB&J for a week so they could buy my product.

 

Just my opinion but I think it would be it would be better if authors of new games being played on sites using JAVATARI got paid at least 1 cent per play, or 1 cent per 10 plays, or whatever. But that's not the way the net works. Everyone wants free...except for the site owners of course who fill the page with ads to put tons of cash in their pocket. You can bet they want their money. Ray Kassar at least paid programmers something for helping him make a lot of money. Many sites have so many animated ads, sound, popups that the game stalls or jerks unless the the net just happens to have the bandwidth at the time to run the whole mess. Not really how I want my game played. "Oh your game was crap, it kept stalling."

 

I'm on the side of labor. I like what the Activision, Imagic, etc, programmers did and not stand for being door mats. I also think way better games was a direct result.

 

I'm old school. I know these days people expect programmers to work for free and think the programmers should also do whatever anyone says. To me there's zero respect in that kind of system. But it sure is a good system for the Kassar's of the world with web sites posting ads. Free content. And they even have a entire community pushing programmers to produce free content, up load ROMs and pay for servers so the Kassars hardly have to lift a finger. Sweet, sweet system for them.

 

For me, writing games for free so some douche can make money selling Viagra ads is something I would never find acceptable. But that might just be me.

[+Random Terrain]

For me, writing games for free so some douche can make money selling Viagra ads is something I would never find acceptable. But that might just be me.

 

But the programmer would be the 'douche' making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something.

 

 

Edit:

 

For some strange reason it seems DanOliver thought I was saying that programmers should give their games for free to someone else to put online.

 

I wasn't calling programmers douches. If making money online makes a person a douche, I was saying that a programmer could be his own 'douche' and make the money himself instead of somebody else. I was playing with the word that DanOliver posted. I did not mean that programmers are actual douches.

 

I should have typed this instead to make sure it couldn't be read wrong:

 

"But the programmer would be making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something, not some douche out there in Internet land."

[Andromeda Stardust]

Good point.

 

Another perspective from one of the dudes doing the work...

For me someone saying they like something that's free has less meaning than someone saying they ate PB&J for a week so they could buy my product.

 

Just my opinion but I think it would be it would be better if authors of new games being played on sites using JAVATARI got paid at least 1 cent per play, or 1 cent per 10 plays, or whatever. But that's not the way the net works. Everyone wants free...except for the site owners of course who fill the page with ads to put tons of cash in their pocket. You can bet they want their money. Ray Kassar at least paid programmers something for helping him make a lot of money.

 

I'm on the side of labor. I like what the Activision, Imagic, etc, programmers did and not stand for being door mats. I also think way better games was a direct result.

You bring up an interesting point regarding money. There was a thread about a Star Castle game written by another older programmer. I forget his name but he recreated a working Star Castle ROM using only 8kb of ROM space. He created a one-off prototype cart in a transparent shell and brought it to a number of Classic gaming conventions. People were enthusiastic and excited about it, however the programmer decided that his investments of time programming it were worth ~$30,000 and wanted compensation for his work. So he decided to offer the cart up for sale for a little over 30 grand, and the community was not happy with him. There were three threads on AtariAge regarding the subject, two of which got locked down, and together totaled a combine 50 or so pages. Last year he created a kickstarter campaign too raise money for people to order carts. I forget how many were made, but he raised over double the $10,000 minimum goal. The transparent carts were really awesome with flashing LEDs, but i took him almost a year to fulfill all orders since the carts had to be molded by hand. Do an AtariAge forum search for Star Castle. In the meantime, another member independently developed a 32kb Star Castle homebrew ROM using a completely different code-base. Just realize if you decide to Atari homebrew, don't expect a ton of money from it. That said, I've bought numerous carts from AtariAge and most of them have high replay value. Edited May 27, 2013 by stardust4ever

[DanOliver]

But the programmer would be the 'douche' making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something.

You see the world much differently than I do.

 

To me a person who labors to create a product has a right to sell it. I would not call that person a douche.

 

A person who spends their money for equipment, electric, food, rent, and spends 400-1000 hours of labor has a fundamental right to request some fee. One cent, 5 cents, $1, $5, $30,000 or $1,000,000. Whether or not someone wants to pay that fee is their choice. I don't think the user has any grounds to call that artist a douche just because the artist asks for some fee. If they want to jump up down and pound their fists on the ground like a soiled child just because they don't like the asking price they can do that, its a free country. And thousands of forums across the net have been created just for them to do so...and drive traffic to the web site of course. It's the new online economy, e-Whining. I love it.

 

I also think a "give me everything for free system" isn't going to produce good products. Most people who knock out hits game after game are going to catch on pretty quick, like after their first game, that some people in the world actually value their talent enough to paid something. And that being paid something allows for better equipment and more time to work on their craft and get better. That's appealing to a lot of people.

 

It's the system we have here at least for a little while longer and imo it works pretty well.

 

If you can convince people to produce good games for you for free that's great. That's also our system. If you can convince people to give you a car, pay your cell phone bill, get you the expanded cable package I say good for you. Write a free book so everyone in the world can get everything they want for free. Can't wait.

 

But if you expect people to give you free labor AND you expect to be paid for your labor...that's pretty douchey. AND if you take the product of that free labor and ruin it with a bunch of ads that make the product run like crap half the time...that's full on douche.

 

You all are into games so yeah, champion the cause to make sure game programmers are never paid. Maybe lobby congress and get a law passed. That would be cool, all the games would be free. Betcha they'd be great games too.

 

I have absolutely no idea how game creators deal with this type of attitude. I can't stomach it.

 

Good day.

[+Random Terrain]

To me a person who labors to create a product has a right to sell it. I would not call that person a douche.

 

You read my post wrong or I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't calling a programmer a douche. If making money online makes a person a douche, I was saying that a programmer can be his own 'douche' and make the money himself instead of somebody else. I was playing with your word.

 

 

 

 

[A bunch of arguing that has nothing to do with what I posted.]

 

I have no idea what in the heck you are going on about. I pointed out to any potential homebrewers reading this thread in the future that if they want more than a couple hundred people to play their games, they could put them online on their own web sites so a lot more people could play them (if getting their games to as many people as they can is their goal). Some might say "I'd be lucky to sell 100 carts, so why even bother? I want more people to play my games." Well, they can get more people to play their games with JAVATARI. If they want people to play their games for free, they can do that. If they want to put ads next to their games, they can do that. If they want to beg for money, they can do that. If they can figure out how to make people pay before playing, they can do that too. It's all up to the programmer.

 

 

 

 

I have absolutely no idea how game creators deal with this type of attitude. I can't stomach it.

 

The only attitude here is the one you're having right now. Maybe we're having a simple misunderstanding and I'm too stupid to explain myself clearly. Let's try again. I posted a message telling future readers of this thread how they can get their games to more people (for those who think very few people would be able to play their Atari 2600 games). It had nothing to do with getting free games or stealing games or anything else you were going on about.

 

It's a very simple concept. If a potential homebrewer is thinking about making an Atari 2600 game, but is put off by how small the audience is, he no longer has to worry about it thanks to JAVATARI. More people will be able to play his game, even if they aren't Atari fans. He can put his game online on his own web site and try to make money from it in some way or he can put it online for free if he just wants people to play it.

[accousticguitar]

I just discovered this thread and enjoyed reading through it, although it took a turn for the worse at the end. It's always nice to hear from one of the original programmers of the Atari 2600 and the stories they have to tell. It would be cool if you were to write a new game for the Atari. I thought the multiplayer game concept was intriguing and I would have been game for it. I realize it's history at this point, however. It is possible for an original programmer to make money programming an Atari 2600 game. The Star Castle game is a case in point. I hope you don't let a few cynics discourage you from considering a new project for the 2600. That would be way cool.

 

[Kulp]

honestly, I don't think it matters what type of game is made...

if an original programmer who worked on games back then made a new game now, there will be loads of interest.

 

kind of a no-brainer.

I'm sure I speak for a lot of people here when I say I'll be happy with anything that gets created, no matter what it is.

There's a special collector's value to a new game from an original programmer.

 

....kind of how Tempest for 5200 was released recently... the original programmer helped make a once-never-released prototype turn into a completely finished game to be released through this community and I personally think the outcome was great.

 

come what may though, we can only hope this programmer will change his mind about creating a game for us to enjoy & cherish.

[mkiker2089]

With the amount of work that went into that Star Castle cart I think he deserved to get paid. 50 dollars was the going rate I think which may seem steep compared to what new games cost but is probably nothing compared to the time and effort it takes to make them.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Dan, please don't get discouraged. I and many other members anxiously await to see what you can create.

 

It's the new online economy, e-Whining. I love it.

:lol: e-Whining! Someone should totally create a new Meme for this! :lolblue:

[DanOliver]

You read my post wrong or I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't calling a programmer a douche. If making money online makes a person a douche, I was saying that a programmer can be his own 'douche' and make the money himself instead of somebody else. I was playing with your word.

I'll take you at your word. However, understand, I can only respond to what you write, not what you mean.

 

I would still not call a game programmer a 'douche' in any context of compensation. I openly and clearly insult enough people already without adding misunderstood insults with hair splitting definitions. I can't really say I understand your meaning even with the clarifications, but it seems you were at least not trying to insult them.

 

The insult I saw was, in addition to your words, in the context of having read several other older threads here where people were insulting artists for exercising their right to request compensation. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see that kind of stuff allowed by other members in a forum which supposedly promotes game development. Makes me feel like I'm back in 1982 asking to have my name on the box again. Personally I would have liked to have seen people ban together and leave the forum until the forum owners did something. To me that's support. Like the programmers who walked out of Atari and made it better for us who followed including today's programmers. Understand, this was serious stuff back then. It's still fresh in our minds.

 

I understand as you said you're trying for clever word play...it might not be working. If you'd like your point considered I might suggest just stating the point clearly and leave the word play for less intense topics. People being paid a fair compensation is pretty serious when you're the one doing the work and paying the development costs.

 

The only attitude here is the one you're having right now. Maybe we're having a simple misunderstanding and I'm too stupid to explain myself clearly. Let's try again.

Hey dude, you're either word spinning or wrote a jacked up post. You wrote what you wrote. You clarified what you meant which is cool. But getting on my case because you like using the word 'douche' is on you. I'm not a mind reader, I didn't force you to write what you wrote. Nut up, clarify, and move on. No big deal unless you want to make it a big deal.

 

This business about insulting me with telling me I have attitude in one sentence and in the next "let's try again"...you got gotta be high to think someone isn't going to have attitude with that kind of cheap crap. I don't know who you pull this with in this forum that lets you get away with that kind of behavior, but I can assure you will indeed get attitude back from me if I have the time.

 

And of course you weren't sporting any attitude yourself....right? Easier to see in others. I understand.

 

I posted a message telling future readers of this thread how they can get their games to more people (for those who think very few people would be able to play their Atari 2600 games).

Now that's a good point. Worth discussion and consideration.

 

It had nothing to do with getting free games or stealing games or anything else you were going on about.

Just gotta bring it right back to the gutter don't ya. You have good points. There's really no reason to be snarky. If you have points you're secure about there's no need to insult some else in the hope they will be intimidated and not challenge your point. Points can be understood, exchanged, and improved with respectful discussion.

 

It's a very simple concept. If a potential homebrewer is thinking about making an Atari 2600 game, but is put off by how small the audience is, he no longer has to worry about it thanks to JAVATARI. More people will be able to play his game, even if they aren't Atari fans. He can put his game online on his own web site and try to make money from it in some way or he can put it online for free if he just wants people to play it.

There's the good point again. How about we just try to concentrate on that for a few posts?

 

I hadn't thought of this, thanks.

 

I obviously would always think an artist is free to do with their work as they like. And having JAVATARI on their own hosted web page would allow for the artist to have some control over how the game played by not installing Google ads that allow audio, video, animation and popups. Even without ads the web isn't always a good experience, but most of the time it is.

 

If the artist can afford the expense of a hosted web site that would be a good option. Web sites are pretty cheap and if the game is any good they could hopefully sell a few carts to cover the cost for at least for a little while. And the artist can show the game to friends, family and peers who don't have a 2600.

 

In that context I think it's a good medium as long as the ROM can be kept safe from down load. There are a lot of content farms out there who have no problem stealing stuff and posting as their own. They've stolen from me which I wouldn't mind so much if they hadn't messed up the end product so bad. I think it's disgusting what they do. And they're so good at tricking Google, or Google is easily tricked, their ripped off jacked up content is always way ahead of my original content in search results. So most people only ever see the hacked up crap.

 

As a stripped down demo only version I think JAVATARI it's a really great idea for new games. Never thought of that before.

 

So I think it's a an idea worth considering.

 

For me personally, just me, I would want my actual game to be played on a 2600. Not any kind of emulator. To me that's the experience I want my players to have. I want the grainy look on a TV, the entire screen used and no back button - title bar- distractions. I think it enhances the experience and given the amount of work that goes into getting every possible enhancement into the game I expect my players to be committed to the best experience too.

 

I think things like JAVATARI are great for playing old games by casual players. And also JAVATARI is just plain mind blowing as a technology. But as a professional game programmer to only target that platform would not make any sense. I can give the player a lot more using modern technologies. At this point in time I would see JAVATARI as a self imposed artificial limitation. Kind of like when I debated for a short time whether a new game should use all the power of Melody. Hell yes was my conclusion. Use state of the art for that platform and there are still players for the platform so why not use the best tech available.

 

There definitely is a WOW factor in being able to play games we played 30 years ago in a browser. For new games...not so much wow for me. It's like porting a 2600 game to an XBox and making it run exactly as it did on the 2600. Cool to be able to play old 1980 games on an XBox, but not so much for new games.

 

I like listening to scratchy vinyl records on a turn table. Scratchy vinyl records on CD, not so much. I prefer they be remastered for the medium. On and on.

[+Random Terrain]

Instead of this:

 

"But the programmer would be the 'douche' making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something."

 

 

I should have said this to make sure it couldn't be read wrong:

 

"But the programmer would be making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something, not some douche out there in Internet land."

 

 

 

 

For me personally, just me, I would want my actual game to be played on a 2600. Not any kind of emulator. To me that's the experience I want my players to have. I want the grainy look on a TV, the entire screen used and no back button - title bar- distractions. I think it enhances the experience and given the amount of work that goes into getting every possible enhancement into the game I expect my players to be committed to the best experience too.

 

Speaking of that, I think the latest version of JAVATARI can go full screen:

 

atariage.com/forums/topic/212183-javatari-330-released-applets-can-now-be-detached-and-go-fullscreen/

[mkiker2089]

I get Dan's point about emulators though. Hence why I only use Stella for demo purposes. If I'm playing a PC game then why limit it to 32k or less because of the Atari? I don't even feel great about the Harmony yet. For me having the game on a cart and pushing it into my Sears Arcade II is more than just playing a game. There's the nostalgia, the novelty, and even the cult status of it to consider.

 

I also think, even though no one asked, that developers should be paid. I'm surprised so many release their roms for free even.

[+Random Terrain]

I also think, even though no one asked, that developers should be paid. I'm surprised so many release their roms for free even.

 

It might be because some programmers get a ton of feedback from players that help improve the game. These programmers and players kind of make a game together in a way or at least polish it together. That's one theory, anyway.

[accousticguitar]

For me personally, just me, I would want my actual game to be played on a 2600. Not any kind of emulator. To me that's the experience I want my players to have. I want the grainy look on a TV, the entire screen used and no back button - title bar- distractions. I think it enhances the experience and given the amount of work that goes into getting every possible enhancement into the game I expect my players to be committed to the best experience too.

That's exactly how I like it, and a lot of people here on AtariAge feel the same way. The best way to enjoy Atari 2600 games is using the original hardware on a CRT.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Can we please refrain from calling other forum members "douches?" Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were "douches." The guys sending spam ads for Viagra and pr0n sites to my inbox are all a bunch of "douches." Programmers who sit and write computer viruses and spyware for fun or profit are "douches." Programmers who create homebrew games on classic game consoles are not "douches." Neither are 99.8% of forum members here.

 

On the topic of Javatari, I believe it is a good way to get the game out to as many people as possible, but I don't believe it would protect the code from piracy. Unless the page is encrypted, a copy of the game ROM must be sent to the browser's cache before it can be loaded into the Java applet. Someone can browse their internet cache for the ROM data while the browser window is open to retrieve it. Better yet, a plugin or GreaseMonkey script could retrieve the file directly off the web server or from the browser cache without the user having to search for it. And even if the webpage and the java applet both used encryption technology, a decrypted copy of the ROM would exist somewhere in the computer's RAM, so it would still be technically possible to "sniff" it out using snooping software. It's actually much more difficult to rip a physical cartridge, although those aren't technically safe from pirates either.

[DanOliver]

"But the programmer would be making the money if he puts his own game on his own web site and puts an ad next to the game or asks for money through PayPal or something, not some douche out there in Internet land."

Yeah I didn't read the first version that way at all, sorry. Now I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks.

[DanOliver]

Can we please refrain from calling other forum members "douches?" Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were "douches." The guys sending spam ads for Viagra and pr0n sites to my inbox are all a bunch of "douches." Programmers who sit and write computer viruses and spyware for fun or profit are "douches." Programmers who create homebrew games on classic game consoles are not "douches." Neither are 99.8% of forum members here.

Apparently no one other than Viagra pushers were called a douche here. I think we're all on the same page.

 

cartridge, although those aren't technically safe from pirates either.

Does that happen very much to the honebrewers?

 

Any copy protection in Melody? Can you get to the code in the ARM space?

[+Random Terrain]

\Can we please refrain from calling other forum members "douches?" Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were "douches." The guys sending spam ads for Viagra and pr0n sites to my inbox are all a bunch of "douches." Programmers who sit and write computer viruses and spyware for fun or profit are "douches." Programmers who create homebrew games on classic game consoles are not "douches." Neither are 99.8% of forum members here.

 

Nobody called other forum members "douches."

[DanOliver]

That's exactly how I like it, and a lot of people here on AtariAge feel the same way. The best way to enjoy Atari 2600 games is using the original hardware on a CRT.

I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how most people do view 2600 games, CRT or monitor? We used to use a Sony Trinitron, push buttons, wood grain, sweet tube.

 

How common is connecting a joystick to a PC? I don't have a joystick connected so playing 2600 games on the PC isn't that much fun. I could probably learn the keys better, but to me the Atari joystick is super important..

[+Random Terrain]

You could create a poll in the Atari 2600 forum and ask people to vote on what they use.

[high voltage]

My picture shows on the previous page I use a Sanyo monitor with a Philips TV tuner ( since 1985). Works a treat

[+SpiceWare]

I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how most people do view 2600 games, CRT or monitor? We used to use a Sony Trinitron, push buttons, wood grain, sweet tube.

A number of us have modded consoles, which provide composite or s-video connections as well as stereo sound (some early games and newer homebrews like Eric Ball's Skeleton+ and my Medieval Mayhem take advantage of stereo).

 

I use mine with my Commodore 1084S monitor (click for full, undistorted image):

 

How common is connecting a joystick to a PC? I don't have a joystick connected so playing 2600 games on the PC isn't that much fun. I could probably learn the keys better, but to me the Atari joystick is super important..

There are USB Atari Joysticks available, as well as USB adaptors for using actual Atari joysticks, paddles and driving controllers. I use the no-longer-available Stelladaptor. There's a newer 2600-daptor that is currently available, though I don't have one so cannot comment on how well it works. They also have a 2600-adaptor II which supports keypads and 7800 controllers.

Edited May 28, 2013 by SpiceWare