Super FX vs Genesis Addons

[Tr3vor]

I don't have an opinion, because I've never seen the genesis addons. I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks

 

1. Graphics, which is better

2. cost, which is more expensive

 

have at it.

[Austin]

Not quite seeing the point of this question (no offense or anything). I'm not sure how much parts are, but if prices of the carts are anything to go by, the Sega SVP was more expensive. However, as demonstrated in Virtua Racing for the Genesis, it was capable of a higher polygon count at faster framerates (Of course, this may have been attributed more to the general faster processing speed of the Genesis over the SNES, than the SVP chip itself).

 

The 32X, an add-on, was even more expensive, but it was much, much more powerful than either the Sega SVP, or the SNES Super FX (Any revision of it).

[Tr3vor]

Sorry for the unclearness of my question, I was in a hurry and had this idea and just slapped it together,

From what I've seen on the 32x I would say that the super fx 2 makes better looking games imo.

I meant to say, which is a better idea, putting the supporting chips in the carts, or making addons, and what was more cost efficient in the long run.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Tr3vor

[Algus]

I think we directly saw the results of that with the 32X. Hardware expansion CAN work as Nintendo proved with the expansion pack but for the consumer to be on board with it, it needs to be reasonably priced too. Nintendo was pretty smart about how they unrolled the pack as well. At first games didn't need it, they would just look a bit better. Then games started coming out with reduced features (stick Perfect Dark in an N64 without the expansion pack for fun times heh). Of course this was near the end of the system's life cycle but still some of those expansion pack games were pretty great.

 

The 32X was to expensive and came out to late in the Genesis's life cycle to have a meaningful impact. If it had been more modestly priced or had been launched with a really standout title in mind, it might have worked better. It didn't help that games like 32X Doom seemed INFERIOR to games SNES versions as well. I personally like the 32X. Its library is small but it has some nifty games and the concept behind it was cool as well. That said, I bought mine for $10 a few years ago and got a game for free with it to start the collection. If I had bought it new, I would have been ticked.

 

The 32X may have been more cost effective for Sega (I don't really know, or care to know TBH, the math behind it) but you've got to get the consumer to go for it and coming on the heels of the Sega CD, which also promised better stuff, it just didn't fly to well.

 

My CD 32X Night Trap remains one of the cornerstones of my collection though. Hurray for oddities.

[chrisbid]

I think we directly saw the results of that with the 32X. Hardware expansion CAN work as Nintendo proved with the expansion pack but for the consumer to be on board with it, it needs to be reasonably priced too. Nintendo was pretty smart about how they unrolled the pack as well. At first games didn't need it, they would just look a bit better. Then games started coming out with reduced features (stick Perfect Dark in an N64 without the expansion pack for fun times heh). Of course this was near the end of the system's life cycle but still some of those expansion pack games were pretty great.

 

The 32X was to expensive and came out to late in the Genesis's life cycle to have a meaningful impact. If it had been more modestly priced or had been launched with a really standout title in mind, it might have worked better. It didn't help that games like 32X Doom seemed INFERIOR to games SNES versions as well. I personally like the 32X. Its library is small but it has some nifty games and the concept behind it was cool as well. That said, I bought mine for $10 a few years ago and got a game for free with it to start the collection. If I had bought it new, I would have been ticked.

 

The 32X may have been more cost effective for Sega (I don't really know, or care to know TBH, the math behind it) but you've got to get the consumer to go for it and coming on the heels of the Sega CD, which also promised better stuff, it just didn't fly to well.

 

My CD 32X Night Trap remains one of the cornerstones of my collection though. Hurray for oddities.

 

 

the biggest problem with the 32x was the lack of a AAA killer-app type title. the saturn had the same problem. in fact, the gaming world was in a bit of a hardware miasma at the time. Sony had the next-gen lead, but the masses really didnt start buying playstations until Final Fantasy VII was released in 97.

 

the masses buy games. they will choose the platform with the best games. geeks like us that buy hardware for their capabilities are in the minority.

[The_Laird]

the biggest problem with the 32x was the lack of a AAA killer-app type title. the saturn had the same problem. in fact, the gaming world was in a bit of a hardware miasma at the time. Sony had the next-gen lead, but the masses really didnt start buying playstations until Final Fantasy VII was released in 97.

 

the masses buy games. they will choose the platform with the best games. geeks like us that buy hardware for their capabilities are in the minority.

 

I couldn't diagree more. The Saturn has a ton of AAA titles, one reason why its my favourite console.

[chrisbid]

the biggest problem with the 32x was the lack of a AAA killer-app type title. the saturn had the same problem. in fact, the gaming world was in a bit of a hardware miasma at the time. Sony had the next-gen lead, but the masses really didnt start buying playstations until Final Fantasy VII was released in 97.

 

the masses buy games. they will choose the platform with the best games. geeks like us that buy hardware for their capabilities are in the minority.

 

I couldn't diagree more. The Saturn has a ton of AAA titles, one reason why its my favourite console.

 

 

i like the saturn too, but there was no killer app on the system that got people to buy saturns. the 2600 had space invaders, the colecovision had donkey kong, the nes had super mario bros, the genesis had sonic the hedgehog, the snes had street figther ii, and the playstation had final fantasy vii.

 

neither the saturn nor 32x had a massively appealing title like any of those games.

[Seob]

Always thought Night into dreams and panzer dragoon series, where the killer apps for the saturn.

[Atariman]

Always thought Night into dreams and panzer dragoon series, where the killer apps for the saturn.

 

Agreed. As a matter of fact, NiGHTS was the reason I bought my Saturn. I can't say that I liked Panzer Dragoon very much, though...

[The_Laird]

Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 were reasons I bought one, both killer apps.

 

I would say Guardian Heroes was one too.

[chrisbid]

 

nights

panzer dragoon

sega rally

virtua fighter 2

gaurdian heroes

 

 

did any of these games have the same system selling capability on the saturn that sonic the hedgehog had for the genesis?

 

the answer is no. if the answer had been yes, the saturn wouldve been a bigger player in the 32-bit generation.

[Seob]

The problem with the saturn was sega's internal power struggle between sega of japan and sega of america. Both had a different perception of how the 32 bit console should be like. Sega of america wanted a 32 bit add-on, the 32x, while sega of japan wanted a whole new console. Both teams where developing they're own system and did not work together. Thus, when the 32x was released, only a couple of months later the saturn was released. Developers where not to happy with this strategy and didn't wanted to code for the 32x anymore. Making the 32x the second "failure" for sega in short time. Costumers were not happy with the lack of software released for they're expensive add-ons and the confusing fact that sega had 2 32 bit systems on the market, and diverted to other systems. It took sega to much time to recover from the mistakes they made that by the time the dreamcast was released it was all a little to late.

[Hatta]

Compare Star Fox to Star Wars Arcade, or SNES Doom to 32X Doom. I think it's pretty clear which have more horsepower behind them.

[+wood_jl]

i like the saturn too, but there was no killer app on the system that got people to buy saturns. the 2600 had space invaders, the colecovision had donkey kong, the nes had super mario bros, the genesis had sonic the hedgehog, the snes had street figther ii, and the playstation had final fantasy vii.

 

neither the saturn nor 32x had a massively appealing title like any of those games.

 

The 32x wasn't brimming with killer apps, of course not. It still has the best version of Virtua Racing for the home. Star Wars Arcade was cool. But there's no doubt that it was lacking in "killer apps."

 

The Saturn had Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, and Virtua Cop. Just because you don't consider them to be killer apps, doesn't at all mean that they were not.

 

 

 

nights

panzer dragoon

sega rally

virtua fighter 2

gaurdian heroes

 

 

did any of these games have the same system selling capability on the saturn that sonic the hedgehog had for the genesis?

 

the answer is no. if the answer had been yes, the saturn wouldve been a bigger player in the 32-bit generation.

 

The answer is "no" to you. It's ridiculous to attempt to over-simplify the Saturn situation down to your opinion on what does or does not constitute a killer app.

 

You think Final Fantasy games are the reason people bought Playstations? What about Toshinden, Need for Speed, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Gran Turismo? Yeah, people bought Playstations to play all of those games too. Maybe not your reason, but what matter?

[Algus]

Hey now, NiGHTs was a great game, one of the best. It certainly may have been a "killer app" for the Sega faithful but was it really reeling in people the way Mario 64 did with its incredible 3D or the way FF7 did with its amazing FMV?

 

I suppose it depends on what we mean by killer app. Although the Saturn clearly had other problems besides software because it got versions of some of the greats like Tomb Raider and Resident Evil and it still just kind of stewed along. Personally I think it was ahead of its time: internal memory and the battery was even easily replaceable if it died.

[godslabrat]

This dude is selling a NIB 32X for $30. Is this a fair price for the system? Because of all the widgets I'd need to get with it, I kind of feel like getting the 32X new, if I ever take the plunge.

 

Geez, a known-working used SegaCD goes for $60-80 at times... Hard to believe the 32X is so crazy cheap!

[Austin]

 

nights

panzer dragoon

sega rally

virtua fighter 2

gaurdian heroes

 

 

did any of these games have the same system selling capability on the saturn that sonic the hedgehog had for the genesis?

 

the answer is no. if the answer had been yes, the saturn wouldve been a bigger player in the 32-bit generation.

 

Yeah, I agree. The above titles are certainly excellent in their own right, but generally don't have the massive appeal that is needed to boost serious interest in a console (by this I mean millions of units sold). Games that fall into these categories include series' that are tried and true (Mario and Sonic), or specific sets of games that are simply all-the-rage at that moment in time (Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter and DOOM in the '90s, Halo on the original XBOX, etc.). I wouldn't doubt that Virtua Fighter helped the Saturn get some of its user base, but on the flipside, the PlayStation had Tekken, a series that was certainly more popular here in America.

 

Going back to the 32X's failure, a lack of quality software was certainly an attributing factor. Asides from DOOM and perhaps Virtua Racing, there were no mainstream, mass-appeal titles or games that were "all the rage" at that moment in time. Anything that came close missed the point. For instance, people didn't care as much as they could have about a 32X Mortal Kombat II because MK3 was what was hot at that time. The rest of the "great" titles it does have generally fall into the "great, but not for everyone" category (obviously not serious system movers). Virtua Fighter may have helped a bit, but by the time it came out nobody was interested in the system.

 

This dude is selling a NIB 32X for $30. Is this a fair price for the system? Because of all the widgets I'd need to get with it, I kind of feel like getting the 32X new, if I ever take the plunge.

 

I bet that 32X is going to go for more than $30 when it ends. But yes, $30 is a steal on a NIB one these days.

 

*EDIT: I don't think it's actually new. No pictures of the inside, no mention of a manual included. Eh. I don't know.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Austin

[Drixxel]

The Saturn may have been keeping up with the PlayStation as far as multiplatform games were concerned, but is there any doubt that a Sonic platformer on the Saturn would have provided at least some kind of a noteworthy commercial boost? Had Sonic Xtreme seen the light of day, it would have impressed people. With all of the blundering attempts Sega's made with Sonic release after Sonic release in recent years, it really is a shame that the company couldn't produce Sonic when their own hardware needed it most.

 

As for the argument of chipped cartridges vs. hardware add-ons, Super FX-equipped carts can be played by any SNES owner whereas hardware expansion in the form of the Sega CD & 32X instantly poses consumers with an obstacle. The common criticism of SNES chipped carts was the higher retail price they demanded, but of course the Sega CD and 32X required a considerable one-time investment that was comparable to rebuying the console in order to open up the full games library. Such a thing only makes financial sense if the new hardware is to enjoy a reasonable lifespan with good software support.

 

If we look at the technical performance of a Super FX game like Vortex we see simple, largely untextured 3D with a poor frame rate. These were graphics that characterized Super FX releases, but in the case of Vortex, the player is free to explore a moderately interesting 3D environment and that was something unique for the console. Chipped carts extending the capabilities of a console definitely instills a better feeling of "value" than having to fork over $150+ for new hardware on top of the cost of games themselves.

[Tr3vor]

Compare Star Fox to Star Wars Arcade, or SNES Doom to 32X Doom. I think it's pretty clear which have more horsepower behind them.

 

 

Its not really fair to compare the starfox agains star wars, how about star fox 2 (the unreleased beta of course) and star wars, I do think that the 2nd version of the FX chip (the one yoshi's island and doom uses)...

[chrisbid]

i like the saturn too, but there was no killer app on the system that got people to buy saturns. the 2600 had space invaders, the colecovision had donkey kong, the nes had super mario bros, the genesis had sonic the hedgehog, the snes had street figther ii, and the playstation had final fantasy vii.

 

neither the saturn nor 32x had a massively appealing title like any of those games.

 

The 32x wasn't brimming with killer apps, of course not. It still has the best version of Virtua Racing for the home. Star Wars Arcade was cool. But there's no doubt that it was lacking in "killer apps."

 

The Saturn had Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, and Virtua Cop. Just because you don't consider them to be killer apps, doesn't at all mean that they were not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

did any of these games have the same system selling capability on the saturn that sonic the hedgehog had for the genesis?

 

the answer is no. if the answer had been yes, the saturn wouldve been a bigger player in the 32-bit generation.

 

The answer is "no" to you. It's ridiculous to attempt to over-simplify the Saturn situation down to your opinion on what does or does not constitute a killer app.

 

You think Final Fantasy games are the reason people bought Playstations? What about Toshinden, Need for Speed, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Gran Turismo? Yeah, people bought Playstations to play all of those games too. Maybe not your reason, but what matter?

 

 

 

dont start in with this you crap

 

the saturn had no killer app

 

the saturn failed to sell 10 million units worldwide, the playstation sold over 100 million

 

that is a fact,

 

 

http://www.playstationmuseum.com/Features/History/History1997.htm

 

playstation US sales

 

9.95 - 100,000

10.95 - 300,000

3.96 - 1,000,000

8.96 - 2,100,000

2.97 - 3,800,000

3.97 - 4,000,000

5.97 - 4,800,000

9.97 - Final Fantasy VII ships in North America

10.97 - 7,800,000

12.97 - FF VII sells 1,000,000 units

1.98 - 10,350,000

5.98 - 11,670,000

8.98 - 14,300,000

 

 

and so on

 

 

Final Fantasy VII was the game that took the playstation from hit to legend. The numbers do not lie, that is not opinion.

 

 

Pre FFVII playstation was a lot like Pre Sonic sega genesis or pre space invaders VCS. all three systems had decent sales and were the best selling machines of their respective generations, but they were all still competing with older games. all three machines needed one game to spark an exponential rise in hardware sales. the gaming masses needed a title to make them drop their older machines and buy new hardware. that is the definition of a killer app. it is not a subjective term that is defined by each player. my favorite games tend not to be killer apps, but i understand that my tastes are more eclectic/nerdier than the average consumer.

Edited November 22, 2010 by chrisbid

[chrisbid]

Compare Star Fox to Star Wars Arcade, or SNES Doom to 32X Doom. I think it's pretty clear which have more horsepower behind them.

 

 

to an untrained eye, star fox and star wars arcade look more or less the same

 

32x doom had a smaller screen, but a faster frame rate... again i dont think there is a clear winner by looks alone

 

 

 

the original idea of the 32x was to basically be an SVP chip. so sega could sell 3D carts at a regular price instead of the 99.99 MSRP of VIrtua Racing. it was a noble idea, but it morphed into everything-but-the-kitchen-sink. and the engineers and business people forgot the basic idea that games sold consoles, not technology.

[NinjaWarrior]

The Saturn had it's fair shear of AAA Titles

[desiv]

Final Fantasy VII was the game that took the playstation from hit to legend. The numbers do not lie, that is not opinion.

 

Of course numbers lie.. Or at least they can be made to say virtually whatever you want them to say..

 

Yes, FF VII came out and the Playstation sold lots more around that time frame... Cause and effect?

Maybe..

But, are there any other variables at play? Is there anything else that might spike sales of a video game system somewhere around the December timeframe?? :-)

 

And apart from the obvious, what else was released around that time?

Marketing hit a peak?

Etc?

 

There's lots of possible variables. And looking at the progression, it looks like the Playstation was ramping up even before FF VII. I'm sure it helped, but if there was no FF VII, is the Playstation not a legend?

 

Hard to say... But I'm sure there are some numbers that will prove whichever you want.

 

I'm not sure I buy into the whole "killer app" theory. Not that there isn't something to it, but I wonder if it's more a great system waiting for an app..

If it wasn't for Super Mario on the NES, would it have failed as a system or would there just be another game that would have replaced it as the "killer app"?

 

And if a system would have been epic, even without the "killer app", is that app still a "killer app" or just an great app at the right place and the right time?

 

For me, it wasn't about the app, it was about Sega at the time. They were just so quirky as a company (buy our Sega.. hey, add this CD, now this 32x, oh snap, you need our new system now, even tho you just got those) that you could have released FF VII on it on release day, and I wouldn't have bought it.

Now, some people would have.. Would it have saved the system? Who knows..

 

desiv

Edited November 23, 2010 by desiv

[chrisbid]

Final Fantasy VII was the game that took the playstation from hit to legend. The numbers do not lie, that is not opinion.

 

Of course numbers lie.. Or at least they can be made to say virtually whatever you want them to say..

 

Yes, FF VII came out and the Playstation sold lots more around that time frame... Cause and effect?

Maybe..

But, are there any other variables at play? Is there anything else that might spike sales of a video game system somewhere around the December timeframe?? :-)

 

And apart from the obvious, what else was released around that time?

Marketing hit a peak?

Etc?

 

There's lots of possible variables. And looking at the progression, it looks like the Playstation was ramping up even before FF VII. I'm sure it helped, but if there was no FF VII, is the Playstation not a legend?

 

Hard to say... But I'm sure there are some numbers that will prove whichever you want.

 

I'm not sure I buy into the whole "killer app" theory. Not that there isn't something to it, but I wonder if it's more a great system waiting for an app..

If it wasn't for Super Mario on the NES, would it have failed as a system or would there just be another game that would have replaced it as the "killer app"?

 

And if a system would have been epic, even without the "killer app", is that app still a "killer app" or just an great app at the right place and the right time?

 

For me, it wasn't about the app, it was about Sega at the time. They were just so quirky as a company (buy our Sega.. hey, add this CD, now this 32x, oh snap, you need our new system now, even tho you just got those) that you could have released FF VII on it on release day, and I wouldn't have bought it.

Now, some people would have.. Would it have saved the system? Who knows..

 

desiv

 

 

people buy video game consoles to play video games

 

games drive hardware sales

 

it really is that simple

 

 

yes, things like price points and marketing help... sony maximized the effect of final fantasy vii, they knew the game had potential and published the game themselves. check out this commercial

 

 

but marketing, price points, hardware power and other business decisions play supporting roles to the product itself. if sega had somehow managed to get final fantasy vii as a saturn exclusive, poor marketing could have dampened the game and consoles success.

 

the saturn was a modest success in japan, despite having the same deluge of genesis add-ons. virtua fighter 2 was a system pushing killer app. the game didnt capture the hearts of gamers in north america though and the saturn suffered here because of it.

 

if you need further proof of the effect of the killer app, take one look at the wii. without wii sports, wii sales wouldve been as flat as the gamecube. meanwhile sony and microsoft have struggled to find new generation defining titles. sony put all their chips on little big planet, but that game didnt resonate the same way wii sports did.

Edited November 23, 2010 by chrisbid

[chrisbid]

i really cant think of a super successful system that did not have a game that pushed hardware.

 

Its hard to imagine the NES without super mario bros or the gameboy without tetris.

 

but the playstation is similar to the genesis and vcs. there was a substantial period of time before the system exploded and dominated the marketplace. in 95 and 96, Nintendo was still a major player with the SNES. a FFVII-less playstation couldve possibly left the 32 bit generation a bit more even handed. sony couldve been the spunky newcomer siphoning off market share but failing to dominate like the original xbox did in the sixth generation.

 

think of the vcs lineup before space invaders. it really wasnt that much better than the odyssey 2 or intellivision

 

pre sonic genesis wasnt much better than the turbo grafx. sega had its arcade ports, but the genesis wouldve continued to wallow as a high end niche system while nintendo continued to dominate with the NES.

 

 

 

killer app titles drastically change the market