Cupcakus Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 My favorite lines from the bottom of that link.... "Want a cart made? Send money! Here is my address:" and "Believe me, this is NOT a big time money making exercise!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Of course I DO sympathize.. but it's just that I have absolutely no idea who we're talking about. How many people/websites/companies do you know selling hacks? It can't be that hard to find out. Ohhhhh... if it's the same guy I'm thinking about.. yeah back in like 1998 before the days of Atariage or any of this "cohesive worldwide Atari web-community" I remember I accidentally found out he was selling hacks I created, and put on the net for fun. Not that I minded, but I just thought it was funny someone was making money out of some silly little thing that I did and was meant to be free. Anyway, confused as I was, I wrote to him and he was friendly enough, saying he said he wasn't making any cash out of it. So I said "ok".. Anyway, back then he had like only seven or so hacks total on his site, (and was nothing like it is now). So it looked totally small time. Anyway, what could I do? It was just a hack! Not like I had any rights to anything anyway (nor wanted any). It was sort of like if I photoshopped some picture of Bill Clinton and put his head on a monkey, then send it out as a joke... Then I go out and find someone is selling prints of it with my name on the bottom! I mean, what the heck can you do? But I guess I eventually decided that he was putting it onto cart format for people so THAT was the service. Anyway, I'm done rambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 I'm sorry to hear you're having these problems but I wonder about a couple of things:1. What's the point of not posting who it is? Wouldn't it make it easier for the comunity to support you in this if we knew for sure who it is? (I don't and I'm sure others don't also) I'm not after the person (else I would make a lot of other stuff public), I just want him to stop selling my stuff. If you or anybody else feels the community should know, then find out who I am talking about and post the name. I won't. 2. Since you're not the original game designer/programmer do you have any legal rights regarding the games? No, except for my homebrews. But that's not my point. I think I have the moralic right (can you say that?) to decide who makes any money (little or not) with my interlectual property. Even if it's only 5% of each game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Mitchell Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Oh my gosh! You are talking about Randy Crihfield of Hozer Video Games! I'm shocked! I always thought he was truthful about forwarding the royalties to the homebrew programmers. I've never ordered from him .. because I have the Cuttle Cart. But you know I enjoy your intellectual property! Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oesii Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 You're totally in the right here Thomas, I can see him making copies of 20 year old games with fuzzy/ignored (for now) copyrights but selling copies of your homebrews is terrible and very wrong. You guys must have had some bad transaction or interaction because he's usually agreeable and I can't believe he won't take those down after you asked him. Anyways, he's going to lose a bunch of customers over here if he doesn't clear this up quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Sadly, after some very pleasant dealings with Randy (I did an AWESOME interview with him last year), I too caught wind of some of the "less than favorable" behavior he was exhibiting and have long since held a silent boycott of Hozer. I hated to do it, because I love to support the homebrew effort in every way, but the information I was getting simply would not allow me to continue patronizing Hozer. I would love nothing more than for Randy to post here and give his side of the story. Maybe clear some air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiggerthehun Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I too, would like to see Randy post a reply here, as I have bought from him in the past. (And have been happy with the service.) Hmmmm... interesting... veddy interesting... So, I had hoped to treat myself to a copy of "Thrust" someday. How now, would I acquire one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Atari Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 If Thomas took the time to convert the games, then he should have say over whether they are sold there or not. Ditto for the homebrews. Well, I did plan on ordering something from him, but not now, not if he pulls that crap. I think everyone should e-mail him and tell him they're not buying anything until he rights this wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Player Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 You can get Thrust Plus: DC Edition at the AA store. You can use a joystick with it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhindle The Red Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I think I have the moralic right (can you say that?) to decide who makes any money (little or not) with my interlectual property. Even if it's only 5% of each game. Thomas, I'm sorry to hear you're having a problem with Randy. I can sympathize, as he started selling Return of Mario Bros. without asking me and I'll admit I was irked. But I really don't think you have a moral right to say what people do with your program 'hacks' any more than I had a moral right to say what he did with my graphic hack. After all, neither you nor I had a moral right to mess with those games' code in the first place. That right belongs to the copyright holder and no other. That's probably what Ken Love means, that the legal holder of copyright (Activision) is asserting that right, since Randy is willing to copy Activision titles. Was it rude of Randy not to ask permission when it comes to a hack? Yes. Does he have a moral obligation to do so? I don't think so. Either way, I'm not particularly surprised, given my personal dealings with him, but I always keep in mind why I did my hacks in the first place: for fun, challenge, and to give something back to the Atari community. Even if some Hong Kong pirate company started manufacturing them in great quantities, I never lose the experience of making them and the wonderful response I got from Atarians. Then, as two of his mourners left his final resting place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupcakus Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 You are correct in that fact that Randy has no legal or moral obligation to stop selling the hacks.... especially because the binaries are freely distributable. The issue at hand is that Thomas asked him not to sell them, and yet he continues to. This may be legally viable, but morally viable is I guess is a matter of each person's ethics and morality. If Randy feels his morals include selling Thomas' work without his permission, that is his right. There are only a couple of places to buy these products from... and both places give overall the same quality of service and products. So the deciding factor for the consumer (us) is to buy from whomever we feel more comfortable dealing with. Even if Randy feels it is moral to do what he is doing... I do not, as a homebrew author I would be outraged for this to happen... and as such I will take my buisness elsewhere, where I can feel confident that the buisnesses practices that company/person has will be up to my standards of morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhindle The Red Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I do not, as a homebrew author I would be outraged for this to happen... And if Randy were to continue to sell homebrews without permission (as compared to hacks) I would say he was absolutely wrong. Thomas would then have a moral and legal right to stop him (as Activision seems to be doing). A good example of what I am talking about can be found in "Weird Al" Yankovic's parody songs. (Stay with me on this one.) There is no moral or legal need for Al to seek permission from the original songwriters to do his parodies. (Most parody artists don't bother to.) He could parody, say, a Prince song without permission and record it. No problem. But if he does that, he gets no credit or share in the song. Anyone who wanted to record Al's version of the song would only have to pay royalties to Prince, as derived works revert to the original copyright holder if permission is not given to share the rights. But when Al goes to Don McLean and gets permission to parody "American Pie", the credits will read "McLean/Yankovic" and they share the rights to the derived product. As I stated earlier, since neither Thomas nor I obtained permission from the current copyright holders, our rights to the derived works are non-existant. Randy's refusal is more an issue of manners than anything else. I completely agree that he should take the hacks down if asked, but it wouldn't particularly upset me if he didn't. In comparison, the Als of AtariAge have always shown the greatest respect to me and that goes far. Randy will only be hurting himself in the long run with this attitude, and given his long-time standing in the Atari community, that's too bad, but no tragedy. If I were Thomas, I'd just forget about him. Life's too short to waste on small-minded people. Put 'em in the wine. Wash 'em off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupcakus Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 The deal with the hacks is very very very minor you are definetly right... But even if it does just boil down to manners... why shop with an illmannered person when you know the Als will treat you and the homebrew developers with respect.... That is my underlying point... Given that the competition is basically even... even the smallest thing wrong on one side can tip the balances dramatically, and this is what Randy has done. It's not a big deal... but it's big enough that I feel more comfortable shopping at AtariAge from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
san-d-2000 Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I noticed Hozer is now offering lots of games with GLOSSY LABELS, while in the past they came without a label (except for the homebrew ones). I'm sure this is a reaction to the fact AtariAge is slowly taking over his business. - San Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 The issue at hand is that Thomas asked him not to sell them, and yet he continues to. This may be legally viable, but morally viable is I guess is a matter of each person's ethics and morality. If Randy feels his morals include selling Thomas' work without his permission, that is his right. There are only a couple of places to buy these products from... and both places give overall the same quality of service and products. So the deciding factor for the consumer (us) is to buy from whomever we feel more comfortable dealing with. You are absolutely right. That's why I posted the information to the public, so everybody can decide for himself. And maybe because I still have the slight hope, that he will change his mind. Moralic similar reasons like those I'm telling you now, made me decide to quit with Randy entirely, but unfortunately I'm not in such a strong postion as his customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari_aaron Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Here's my bit. I attended a lecture on gaming/internet copyright issues back in May of 2000 at the 3D Conference and Expo in San Jose. Here's a couple of things I took away from the lecture. 1 - You're only allowed to collect legal damages if your register your copyright within 30 days after your original work is published. 2 - Most courts won't rule for you unless the copyright infringer is causing serious damage to your reputation or your ability to make money from your copyrighted materials 3 - You aren't violating a copyright if your derivative work is significantly different from the original. - the standard for this is subjective 4 - If you don't have a contract and you're paid by someone to make something, by default, the copyright goes to the person who paid you to do it. 5 - If you make something for someone and do it for free the copyright goes to you and not the person you made it for. Based upon my interpretation of those five rules, I'd say that you have a legal case against the guy to get him to stop distributing your hacks. However, you probably couldn't get monitary damages. Though I could be wrong. I'm not an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 Based upon my interpretation of those five rules, I'd say that you have a legal case against the guy to get him to stop distributing your hacks. However, you probably couldn't get monitary damages. Though I could be wrong. I'm not an expert. Thanks for your help, but I'm definitely not going the "legal way". I can understand, if a big company like Activision has to do that, but in my case, I think the Atari community can solve the problem alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari_aaron Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Well, if he doesn't do the right thing, you can count on me not to purchase anything from him. Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
san-d-2000 Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I was wondering if he ever paid you royalties for your homebrewgames? And why you have decided to stop dealing with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moycon Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I can see Thomas is just wanting Randy to remove them from the site...because even tho he didn't program the games himself. He did take the time to investigate and make the changes to the code. He then shared his results with all of us. Then Randy takes them and starts profiting over what is essentially Thomas work... (these games didn't exist in this form until Thomas got his hands in them) I think its crappy and wrong. Maybe legaly nothing can be done....and it doesn't matter, Thomas doesn't want to take a legal route. But for someone who supposedly is so big into the church and preaching the praises of his lord....Randy certainly could take a lesson in respecting his fellow man, it seems that making a couple bucks is more important though. The whole thing just sucks. I hope Randy does the right thing and respects Thomas's wishes. In the mean time...when does the AA store move to it's new shopping format? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 I was wondering if he ever paid you royalties for your homebrewgames? Yes, he did and that's not my problem. Actually he owns me $200 and has promised to send them by Christmas. And I think he will. And why you have decided to stop dealing with him? As I stated above, I dont want to discuss this in public. The story is very unpleasant (especially for him) and I don't have the nerve to go through that again. I had hoped after (silently!) quiting dealing with him, the story would be over soon. But he prefered to continue. And the reasons why we split are IMHO totally unimportant for the actual topic. While he sure is angry about me, that does not give him any right to do what he is doing now. BTW: Here is an excerpt of his list with my stuff only: The Y in colum 7 is important: 7 Can you get it from HozerVideo on a cart? Notice, that even my very latest TV format conversion Acid Drop is on the list. And I bet there would be not N at all, if he could make those carts. HB Thrust HV/Thomas Jentzsch Yes 16K Y ----- HB Jammed HV/Thomas Jentzsch --- 4K Y ----- SC *Asteroids (Driving) Atari 8K Y ----- SC *Battlezone (2 Joys) Atari 8K Y ----- SC *Omega Race (Joystick) CBS Electronics 8K N ----- SC *Robot Tank (2 Joys) Activision 8K N ----- SC *Sprintmaster (Driving) Atari 16K N ----- PN *Acid Drop Salu Yes 16k Y ----- PN *Asterix Atari 8K Y ----- PN *Bobby is Going Home Puzzy/Bit 4K Y ----- PN *Cat Trax UA (P) 4K Y ----- PN *Cosmic Commuter Activision (P) 4K Y AG-038 PN *Dragon Defender Unknown!!! 4K Y ----- PN *Fatal Run Atari 32K N 26162 PN *Ghostbusters II Salu 16K Y ----- PN *Hell Driver ITT Family Games 4K Y ----- PN *Ikari Warriors Atari 16K Y ----- PN *Laser Base ITT Family Games 4K Y ----- PN *Lilly Adventure Taiwan/Funvision 4K Y ----- PN *Missile Control Video Gems 4K Y ----- PN *Mission Survive Video Gems 4K Y ----- PN *Montezuma's Revenge Parker Brothers (P) 8K N PB5760 PN *My Golf Salu 8K Y ----- PN *Obelix Atari 8K Y ----- PN *Open Sesame Puzzy/Bit 4K Y ----- PN *Parachute Homevision 4K Y ----- PN *Pharoah's Curse Technovision 4K Y ----- PN *Polaris Tigervision 8K N ----- PN *Real Sports Basketball Atari 8K Y ----- PN *Star Wars Ewok Adventure Parker Brothers 8K N ????? PN *Steeple Chase Unknown!!! 4K Y ----- PN *Surfer's Paradise:Danger Video Gems 4K Y ----- PN *Treasure Below Unknown!!! 4K Y ----- PN *Wing War Imagic 8K Y ----- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 He did take the time to investigate and make the changes to the code. He then shared his results with all of us. Then Randy takes them and starts profiting over what is essentially Thomas work... (these games didn't exist in this form until Thomas got his hands in them) Thanks! BTW: Here is a reply of him about this: You also assume that I don't know how to convert a game from PAL to NTSC. Tisk tisk. I think a poor old software engineer like me can manage to compile a little code, especially with all the nice helpful things out there flying around to make it all the more possible. No comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCroniger Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 This makes me very sad . I've bought over a dozen games from him and he's always been pleasant. I hope things are worked out to everyone's satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigferret Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 Thomas, sorry to hear about this. I've never bought anything from Hozer, but you can rest assured that I never will now. His attitude as well as actions prove he's not to be dealt with. When I have a bit of extra cash to purchase Thrust, I'll do it here at AA. The older I get, the less amazed I am at people with no honor or pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisr Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 These games didn't exist for Thomas to hack, had they not been originally created in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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