The sad story about my Atari 2600 TV format conversions

[Rhindle The Red]

Folks, I would not celebrate too quickly.

I, for one, am most certainly *not* celebrating. This whole incident is bad for everyone. But, there's no putting it back together again, now.

 

I'd love for everyone to come to a fair and equitable (sp?) solution and, perhaps, that could happen. But this incident will not quickly be forgotten. Randy's place in Atari's online profile has been forever altered. Programmers and hackers alike will be a bit more careful about who they trust. It's never going to be the same.

 

I'm not saying it will be better or worse, just different. Like many, Hozer was one of the first places I learned about when getting into the Atari online community. Even after my own dealings with him, I never could have imagined this kind of thing happening.

 

Oh, well...

 

Oh I don't like it, but I guess there isn't much I can do about it.

[Alex]

Folks, I would not celebrate too quickly. In fact, this might be a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Now there is one less source of carts and many older homebrew carts are suddenly "out of print" unless Randy has a change of heart and brings back Hozer.

 

This is exactly what we did not want to happen, although I'm sure Randy doesn't believe that. Randy sells a far larger catalog of games than we ever intend to, and we wanted those to continue to be available. We stated from the beginning of our discussions, to Randy and to the Xype group, that we did not want people to make a choice between us or Hozer. Only Randy wanted that.

 

Should Randy have dropped selling the conversions? Maybe.

But from correspondence with him, on items like that, he sees what he is doing as selling a service. That service is putting to cartridge an avaialble ROM.

 

Sure, it's a service he is paid for. But if he's going to profit from it, should he share the profit with the creator? I understand this isn't possible with most of the old catalog of Atari games, but in the case of hacks or individually programmed games, this seems natural.

 

The conversions were available on the Hacks page on this web site.

 

Someone has mentioned Cubicolor. That would fall under the same rubric using this business model. And that ROM is also on the Atari Age web site.

 

Someone mentioned Activision. It appears that Atari Age is about the only place that removed those ROMs. Other prominant Classic Gaming web sites still have those ROMs displayed. I will not name them to protect the innocent (and to prevent NARCing to Activision).

 

And if you are wondering about the model of selling "service," I have heard that from others before. It is the way that around selling something that you have no legal right to sell (or at least that is what is believed). And almost all 2600 hacks that are being sold fall into that category somewhat (including some on the Atari Age page).

 

Yes, these statements are correct. We have never had a beef with Randy selling his "service", but we feel it is not fair to profit using works created by other people with whom he could easily share the wealth. Instead he claims there is no profit so that he doesn't have to pay them. I really had no idea he didn't even ask permission for all those hacks and for games like Cubicolor. Nobody is expecting him to send a $25 check to Infogrames, but when the people are active in our community, I see no excuse to not pay them for their work.

 

That being said, Randy offered some games that I wonder how Randy got the ROM he listed. Obviously, he had very very good contacts, at least at one time.

 

I would like there to be a resolution. Most people here did too. But I don't think they wanted to create a monopoly situation.

 

Where am I now to go to get Pesco? Qb? Simon?

 

You're right, we did not want to create this situation. We do not currently offer the Ebivision games, although we would like to. There are other games that full under that category. However, there are many hacks and homebrews we have no intention of ever selling so that is a shame that they are no longer currently available.

 

Randy chose to close down Hozer himself. He is partially blaming us, yet it was his own actions that cause the ire of many people, and eventually he made the decision to shut it down.

 

I would hope that either someone else takes his place, or he makes some type of statement recanting his comments about us and others, and offers some apologies. Then maybe people will give him a second chance.

[ubersaurus]

Where am I now to go to get Pesco? Qb? Simon?

 

I agree...I don't think I'll ever be able to play the Intellivision Production games now, since i don't see them being high priority items, I doubt anyone else will bother seeing about them.

[mdoerty]

First of all, I commend Atari Age for the work it has done and for not killing my post.

 

Second of all, I never intended to say that this was an orchestrated effort to get Randy out of the business by Atari Age or anyone else. Though from the piling on some might think of that.

 

Third of all, I would hope that Atari Age would work to get the good homebrews for sale and catalog and get ROMs for the other games/hacks, if they have not already done so.

 

Fifth of all, I cannot speak to Randy's morals, I don't go to his church. But as for his business practices, it probably would be wiser to sell with permission. Though certainly others out there are doing it without. The only case where I can remember someone going through all the legal hoops was the Cuttle Cart.

 

Fifth of all, about programmer and profit, how many of those $45 "specials" we found the proto and are releasing it at this show or on this web site deals do you think give money back to the original programmer?

 

Sixth of all, in these discussions of profit, has anyone considered the time it takes to do this? While I don't know much about cart building, I imagine it is far less than most of the people who do it generally earn for an hour of their time.

 

Finally, I publically call for Randy to reconsider and reopen Hozer! (Albeit without anything that some people may not wish him to sell).

 

Mike Dougherty

[oesii]

Finally, I publically call for Randy to reconsider and reopen Hozer! (Albeit without anything that some people may not wish him to sell).

 

I think that's exactly the point Thomas made when he originally posted this problem. Randy has provided a great service to atarians over the years, Thomas asked him politiely to remove his hacks and homebrews and Randy has responded poorly to this request. I'm sure if a fair resolution is worked out between all the parties some of us would give Hozer a second chance.

[legeek]

I've had nothing but good dealings with Randy in the past (my first cart from him was Edtris), and later produced his print catalog for him. I hope things will cool off and Hozer will return.

 

He will be missed.

 

While Randy may have done wrong to Thomas (which is a shame since Thomas is one of best contributors to the community), it's a little shocking to see how quickly we "turn" on someone. Randy has done a lot for our community, and I find it disheartening to see how quickly many of you assume he's just a selfish jerk based on one incident...

 

Le Geek

[Cupcakus]

I've had nothing but good dealings with Randy in the past (my first cart from him was Edtris), and later produced his print catalog for him. I hope things will cool off and Hozer will return.

 

He will be missed.

 

While Randy may have done wrong to Thomas (which is a shame since Thomas is one of best contributors to the community), it's a little shocking to see how quickly we "turn" on someone. Randy has done a lot for our community, and I find it disheartening to see how quickly many of you assume he's just a selfish jerk based on one incident...

 

Le Geek

 

It's been stated a zillion times in this thread... we live in a tight community of trust... and one little incident is all it takes... We spend a lot of time working on this software, and we have to trust the people we share it with... if we can't trust them, then this community will crumble and the 2600 will be the crappy old computer it's supposed to be.

[Cupcakus]

Here is my reply to mdoerty on the RGVC newsgroup... his post there was similar to his post here, but I chose to respond to his post there....

 

Here is what I had to say...

 

> Should Randy have dropped selling the conversions under question?

> Maybe.

 

Maybe? How do you come to this conclusion? It is morally acceptable to you

to undermine an authors wishes... There would be no conversion to sell if he

never made them would there! I believe this gives the author the right to

tell him to stop selling them.

 

> But the service that is sold is putting ROMs on a cartridge.

 

That's BS and you know it... so if I buy a conversion from him... I'm not

buying a copy of the converted software??? I'm buying the service of putting

it on a cart? If that is the case then all carts should be the same price

across the board, as all are just a service right? Too bad Atari didn't

think about that when they were paying royalties to their authors??? :-)

"Uh, I know you worked hard on your game, but software is free sir, we only

sell the service of putting software on a cartridge" gimme a break

 

> The conversions were available on the Hacks page on the Atarti Age web

> site.

 

Freely available to use doesn't mean you can profit from it... I know you

know that.

 

> In this discussion, it has been asked about selling old unique games

> like Cubicolor. That would fall under the same rubric using this

> business model. And that ROM is also on the Atari Age web site.

 

Again... common... if someone makes software free, it doesn't mean you can

slap your name on it and sell it. For copyrighted works that is straight up

illegal... Know your facts dude. (Hacks are not copyrighted to the hacks

author I am comenting on Cubicolor)

 

> Similarly, the point has been made about selling carts with Activision

> reproductions, especially in light of the PS2 release. It appears that

> Atari Age is about the only place that removed those ROMs. Other

> prominant Classic Gaming web sites still have those ROMs displayed. I

> will not name them to protect the innocent (and to prevent NARCing to

> Activision).

 

I fail to see what that has to do with anything! Except the fact that AA was

asked to remove something by an author... AND THEY DID IT WITHOUT

HESITATION!!!!! That is what sets the morality of AA and Hozer apart.

 

> By the way, the model of selling "service," I have heard that from

> others before. It is the way that around selling something that you

> have no legal right to sell (or at least that is what is believed).

> And almost all 2600 hacks that are being sold fall into that category

> somewhat.

 

You are just regergitating what you stated above, this is the stupidest

thing I've heard all day... If I burn a copy of Visual Studio .NET and sell

it to you... did I not just commit illeagal software piracy??? Or is it

legal because I only sold you the service of burning it on the CD... the

Software is free to give away because you can find it on the net at certain

"innocent" sites.

 

> That being said, Randy offered some games that I wonder how Randy got

> the ROM he listed. Obviously, he had very very good contacts, at least

> at one time.

 

??? So... what does that have to do with anything :-) Randy should be

forgiven of his immoral behavior because he can get us cool ROM's :-) silly!

 

> I would like there to be a resolutio to this situation. And I hope

> there is still time for one. I personally would like Randy to

> reconsider this.

 

Me too... I'm pretty pissed over this whole thing, but giving AA a monopoly

will not help the community. Randy needs to suck it up, apologise, and

reopen shop with legit products.

 

> So the folks who were looking for this situation should not celebrate

> too quickly. In fact, this might be a case of throwing the baby out

> with the bath water. Now there is one less source of carts and many

> older homebrew carts are suddenly "out of print" unless Randy has a

> change of heart and brings back Hozer.

 

I agree with you here too... Hozer closing is no means for celebration in

the slightest... I am saddened by this development. I have stated I will

no longer buy from Hozer in other posts, but many do not feel this way.

 

In short, Randy was WRONG, flat out... disprove me if you can... I would bet

my children you cannot. It's nice to see someone step up and defend him,

because the numbers are few at this point...

 

Think to yourself... if Randy was in the right... Why did he close his doors

and hide? Why are YOU the only one sticking up for him with a very weak

rebuttle...

 

--Chris Larkin

[Cupcakus]

I think it's important to state that AA is by no means the forever good guy here. I will turn just as quick and harshly on AA if they pulled this crap in the future...

 

However I have the upmost confidence that AA will respect my works and the works of my fellow homebrew authors. In a community based on trust, it doesn't take much dishonesty to lose everyone.

[Albert]

While Randy may have done wrong to Thomas (which is a shame since Thomas is one of best contributors to the community), it's a little shocking to see how quickly we "turn" on someone. Randy has done a lot for our community, and I find it disheartening to see how quickly many of you assume he's just a selfish jerk based on one incident...

 

Just to be clear here, this isn't just about one incident, but it is one incident that opened the doors. Did you read the messages Alex and Joe Grand posted? This has been ongoing since early September and probably never would have come out into the open if Randy hadn't crossed the line with Thomas. What was Thomas to do at that point? Just ignore this latest incident as if it didn't happen at all?

 

And we hadn't planned on posting anything until Randy decided to LIE about US (and Thomas and Joe) in a public forum. But we take our reputation seriously, and I'll be damned if someone is going to post lies about us in an attempt to damage our credibility.

 

..Al

[Cupcakus]

One who has no credibility cannot damage another's credibility. Your reputation is safe :-)

[+Andrew Davie]

Whilst the sharks are still circling, I would like to jump in and at least publicly thank Randy for the support he gave ME during difficult times. As you may know, I goofed with Qb special edition and had to re-make 100 cartridges. Not only did Randy do this for me with great speed, but also on credit and at reduced cost.

 

I personally felt that I owed him for this support, and so decided to keep XYPE Qb production with him. His product was good, his service and support - in my opinion - excellent. Yes, there were some non-negotiable items with which I was not truly happy (the Hozer logo, exclusivity...) but we discussed and negotiated these things. In the end, it's give and take.

 

So, while you are ripping chunks off the poor guy, please remember that the issue is not TOTALLY black and white. Yes, Randy has some very defensive (and some may say arrogant) attitudes towards cartridge production - and maybe he has approached things in the wrong way. I think I side with Thomas on the issue of selling items like the TV conversoins. But I always found Randy willing, at least, to talk.

 

I do hope Randy brings back Hozer's site. For as a community I think we benefited greatly from his service and sales. We will, of course, never see the same thing again... but don't totally abandon ship, guys.

 

It pains me to see you all putting in the daggers in such a way. Issues like this can be dealt with in much better ways than a group-killing.

 

Cheers

A

[Alex]

For the record, Randy quit responding to our emails quite some time ago. I also gave him my home phone number and told him to call me any time so that we could clear it up. He never responded or took me up on the offer.

[Crackers]

As a homebrew programmer with a cartridge being published by Hozer Video (Video Time Machine) I can say that I have never had anything but pleasent experiences dealing with Randy and have never felt any need to question his ethics or distrust him.

 

Also, as the author of one hack myself (Rescue Bira Bira) I've never cared if anyone has sold my hack in cartridge form. I've made a deal with Randy to "officially" sell the hack I made but other people have, at times, sold copies of the hack as well. Yes there was personal time and effort put into creating the hack, not only to design new graphics but to also crack the copyprotection Mystique had put on the cartridge. Still I can't very well claim exclusive ownership of the cartridge. I make/made the ROM of my hack freely available for the gaming community to do with as they pleased (I don't know if its still available as I closed my account with the people hosting that old site over a year ago, last time I checked, a few months ago, the site was still there but they'll probably eventually notice they're hosting a page for someone who is no longer a member and take it down). Some people other than Randy have been selling it on Multicarts and as part of other ROM collections. No sweat off my nose. Like I said, although I hacked it I didn't create it so I hardly own it.

 

In any case Randy continues to perform a valuable service to the collecting community. Not only does he offer the homebrew programmers a convenient means to publish their original works, he also offers collectors copies of discontinued works that are very rare and difficult to come by. The copies in no way diminish the value of the originals than Marvel's reprints of classic Spiderman and X-men comics diminish the value of the originals.

 

I think it's cool that AA is getting into the cart publishing business too. Competition is always good for business. So before you start cheering for the destruction of Hozer Video (and your boycott of Hozer is really only hurting the homebrew programmers that publish original works there) think about what would happen to the hobby if cartridge publishing become a monopoly controlled by a single publisher. I'm talking about the homebrew publishers putting out original titles, not people putting discontinued ROM images on carts.

 

I know that undoubtedly some publishers would just love to see Hozer go out of business. Both his ROM copies and hombrew originals sell pretty inexpensively. No doubt with Hozer out of the way some people might feel they can make a fortune by charging more money for these copied carts and by providing higher priced original works.

 

Like I said, in the many years my cart has been sold through Hozer I've never had any cause for complaint. Don't be so quick to judge the guy until you've heard his side of the story.

[Alex]

I think it's cool that AA is getting into the cart publishing business too. Competition is always good for business. So before you start cheering for the destruction of Hozer Video (and your boycott of Hozer is really only hurting the homebrew programmers that publish original works there) think about what would happen to the hobby if cartridge publishing become a monopoly controlled by a single publisher. I'm talking about the homebrew publishers putting out original titles, not people putting discontinued ROM images on carts.

 

I know that undoubtedly some publishers would just love to see Hozer go out of business. Both his ROM copies and hombrew originals sell pretty inexpensively. No doubt with Hozer out of the way some people might feel they can make a fortune by charging more money for these copied carts and by providing higher priced original works.

 

Like I said, in the many years my cart has been sold through Hozer I've never had any cause for complaint. Don't be so quick to judge the guy until you've heard his side of the story.

 

Again, for the record, it was Randy that wanted to be the exclusive dealer of various carts, not us. We stated very clearly that we did not want people to abandon Hozer. I don't like the implication that we would love to see Hozer go out of business so that we can make a fortune.

 

We would also like to see Randy publicize his side of the story, and back up his comments with facts.

[krawhitham]

unless you own the rights to the games you converted, I do not see where you had a legal leg to stand on.

 

if I'm wrong please explain, also I believe the proccess used and needed to convert the games, also made you work illegal under the the DMCA.

 

 

read it carefully

[moycon]

I don't think anyone wanted anyone else else to go to court so why the legal reference??

This thread wasn't about the legal aspect.

[Albert]

In the mean time...when does the AA store move to it's new shopping format?

 

We are nearly done. Here is a screenshot for your viewing pleasure.

 

..Al

[CPUWIZ]

You guys are all dancing around in circles, it is simply about the fact that once you have spent the time programming something with passion (be a little), you have a different perspective of someone taking your work and selling it.

 

Some asswipe magazine reviewer leaked the XBOX version of Dead To Rights and the rip was available all over the internet before it hit the store shelf (this is one of many horror stories I have), how do you think that makes me feel ? We are talking about a 7 million dollar production here that took 35 people almost 2 years to complete but it is no different than Thomas creating a game on his own in 3 or 4 months.

 

Once you have felt this kind of pain first hand you would understand where Thomas is coming from.

 

Legal threats are often a result of frustration and often simply just end in the threat of lawyers getting involved.

 

Sorry guys, I am rambling ....

 

Nevermind.

[Simon]

I want to thank Randy for all the support he gave me concerning "Mental Kombat". He was my very first contact concerning Atari 2600 development and helped me quite much in technical questions.

 

As he helped me so much, I decided to stick to his service for the distribution of the unlimited run of Mental Kombat, even if he asked for distribution through Hozer only.

 

I'll miss his service and his mails, as he supplied some very good items and quality to me.

 

Thank you!

 

Simon

[Thomas Jentzsch]

First I would like to thank everybody who has posted to this thread. All (maybe except a very few) posts (pros and cons) where very fair and factual, which helped a lot.

 

If Randy ever had reacted like the AA community did, this would never had to happen.

 

Ok, it looks like my sad story has come to another sad (but not unexpected) end.

 

Randy closed Hozer! That's no good news, not for the community, not even for me. I was afraid something like this would happen, because when I decided to stop dealing with him some weeks ago, he wrote sentences like

So one of these days, very soon, when Hozer Video disappears for good, you can know that it was the backstabbing of a friend, named Thomas, that brought it all about.

to me. So I was well aware, that this was Randy's last "Joker" and he was willing to play it.

 

I told Randy several times, that I would have to go public if he would force me to do so (by not accepting my explicit non-permission). The fact that he didn't care, shows, that he totally lost control and was and probably still is under false impression about the whole situation.

 

IMO Randy is living in his own world now. I'm quite sure he really believes what he is telling, and so he is very sure that AA, me and others are after him. I hope he finds the time and patience to rethink his actions. If he then should apologize to the community and stop his odd behaviour of the latest past, I'm also sure many people would give him a second chance. But I'm afraid (and also quite sure) that won't happen.

 

So I don't think this is a day to celebrate anything. But sooner or later this had to happen.

 

Randy's service will be missed by a lot of people. AFAIK AtariAge never wanted and will not replace him entirely (especially in the hacks/conversion section), so it is time for us to think about the future now. Who will fill the gap now?

 

BTW: IMHO there is a big difference between "just" not asking people for permission and deliberately acting against someones wishes. That's why I had to react. I never called for a boycott, this was an individual decission based on my story.

[san-d-2000]

Just wanted to state the following:

 

I have bought several times from Randy, never had a problem,

great service, fast shipping (wish everyone shipped this fast, hint) and friendly emails, so I see no reason not to buy from him in the future.

 

 

- Sandy.

[mvigor]

Here is a link to Randy's web pages using the WayBack Machine:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20011108122242/...atari/2600.html

 

Despite this thread I would like to thank Randy for 6 or 7 years of great service. His multicarts and repro carts were always great. I was very happy when he started making > 4K carts and now I am very disappointed that I never bought a copy of Elk Attack. Where will I get one made now?

[Tempest]

I've got two things to say here:

 

1.

I don't think I'll ever be able to play the Intellivision Production games now

 

I talked to the Intellivision productions guys at CGE and they said if they could get enough people interested (50 or more I think) they would consider doing another run of Sea Battle and Swordfight. Steamroller was another issue entierly, something about production difficulties. So you may still have a chance.

 

 

2. I have a theory as to why Randy pulled all his pages. I believe his strategy is to yell and scream about how AA and others forced him out of bussiness with their "lies" and remove all his pages. Now instead of still being in business under intense pressure from the people he shafted he's "supposedly gone" forever. Now you'll notice that people are begining to say stuff like "Gee I miss Hozer", "It's a shame he's gone, I wish he would come back", and even "What a shame that some people forced Randy to close shop". We're playing right into his hand here. He purposely overracted and wants people to feel sorry for him so the community will bag him to come back. I refuse to let him make himself the victim here.

 

Tempest

[Curt Vendel]

Folks, I would not celebrate too quickly. In fact, this might be a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Now there is one less source of carts and many older homebrew carts are suddenly "out of print" unless Randy has a change of heart and brings back Hozer.

 

I agree, this situation completely snowballed and it could've very easily have been worked out amiably, but from all that has been seen from both sides, Randy didn't seem willing to come to middle ground and work "with" others and seemed to be petty about several things. Its unfortunate to then also find out there he appeared to have crossed the line with other properties that he clearly had no right to be selling.

 

He's been around a long long time and lets face it, he was a cornerstone in this whole homebrew/hack selling effort.

 

Randy, its not too late dude... I have a hunch that everyone would be willing to hash this out and if you would be reasonable, and work with everyone, things could get back to a positive and meaningful position again. (Of course it seems you have other problems with other parties outside of the core issues on how this topic started with the hack/homebrewers and you'll have to deal with those seperately)

 

You provide a valuable resource, don't be like others and perceive another vendor or community contributor as being a threat and resort to retailitory tactics and twisting the truth, others have done such things and now find themselves with their backs against the wall for what they've done, you don't have to do this, work things out with everyone and don't leave the community, there is plenty of room here for everyone.

 

 

Curt