Mirage Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Do you want to completely invalidate other people's observations and opinions about the system? NO!!!!!!! Why even ask this? The first guy I replied to basically bashed the 7800 and gave misleading information about its hardware capabilites while stating his post as fact and the second guy tried to invalidate my opinion and patronize me. I had no problems with a difference of opinion. It's a lack of respect for different opinions I have a problem with. I don't think it was as misleading as you think it is though. It's his opinion, and mine is close. I respect your opinion to like the 7800. I have reasons for not caring for it, and they have already been pointed out. I guess what I'm saying is that he said his opinion, you said yours, what more is there really to say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianC Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Do you want to completely invalidate other people's observations and opinions about the system? NO!!!!!!! Why even ask this? The first guy I replied to basically bashed the 7800 and gave misleading information about its hardware capabilites while stating his post as fact and the second guy tried to invalidate my opinion and patronize me. I had no problems with a difference of opinion. It's a lack of respect for different opinions I have a problem with. I don't think it was as misleading as you think it is though. It's his opinion, and mine is close. I respect your opinion to like the 7800. I have reasons for not caring for it, and they have already been pointed out. I guess what I'm saying is that he said his opinion, you said yours, what more is there really to say? The 7800 can handle a lot on screen without slowdown, a good amount of games play well, and I didn't find the animations to glide or lack physics. The post bashed the Maria and called it crappy hardware, and there's that stating opinion as fact thing... I have no problem with him disliking the system, but I have a problem with him stating opinion as fact. I'm in the US so maybe the PAL games weren't optimized so well? Edited January 23, 2011 by BrianC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I'm in the US too. It's a comparison to 5200/A8 games for example. It's not that it's worse or better, it's just that it has different strengths and weaknesses. Whoever called it "crap", that's an opinion, but you can't really argue that it's not different, because then it would be the same. Some of the details of the differences have already been outlined. It seems like you're taking this a bit too personally. They're different systems, and some people won't like the style of one or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 The thing is I have never owned a classic computer, I grew up with consoles and just recently got into computer gaming, so I figured the 7800 would have been a better choice as it was a console and I currently do not own any 8-bit consoles besides it. I hear this comment quite often. The thing is, the 8-bit computers can be used solely as a console, if one chooses. The 8-bits have a cartridge port and many good titles that can be run from it. There are also multicarts available. You can own the system and never have to deal with any other medium. Of course you'll miss a lot. Point is, I consider the 8-bits a computer/console. When I first got mine, I used nothing other than cartridges for about a year. I have heard that with a floppy drive, all you do is insert the floppy then turn on the system and it loads automatically like a cart, is that true? If so I would not mind floppy's. Currently have a TI-99/4A that I am selling because of the lack of games. Plus I can not seem to remember the load command half of the time. To used to MSDOS I guess. Yea, pretty much all commercial games load this way, and then there are disks with menus for loading multiple games. The SIO2PC connection cable also allows you to auto load disk images or binary game files. SIO2PC is great because you can set it up with a single large disk image containing most of your games and have instant access to almost everything available whenever you turn your machine on. I just leave one of these disks set up and ready to go in the PC application. So, all I have to do is open the PC program and then flick on the Atari. These cables are relatively inexpensive or can be home-made fairly easily for even less. There are many other solutions available too, but SIO2PC is the cheapest way to open up the full library that's available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATARI7800fan Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 What are your guys opinion of jaybird3rd. I am thinking of getting a computer he is selling. It is a Atari 600XL, I've got an extra boxed unit that's in great shape and includes 64K of RAM (via an internal upgrade that I added).He is asking 45 dollars plus shipping. Is that a fair price. What is his reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 What are your guys opinion of jaybird3rd. I am thinking of getting a computer he is selling. It is a Atari 600XL, I've got an extra boxed unit that's in great shape and includes 64K of RAM (via an internal upgrade that I added).He is asking 45 dollars plus shipping. Is that a fair price. What is his reputation. You can't go wrong with him. I have no idea about 600XL prices though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 He's a good guy to deal with and a long standing AA member. Check his AA feedback here. I've never had any problems with my transaction with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianC Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) I'm in the US too. It's a comparison to 5200/A8 games for example. It's not that it's worse or better, it's just that it has different strengths and weaknesses. Whoever called it "crap", that's an opinion, but you can't really argue that it's not different, because then it would be the same. Some of the details of the differences have already been outlined. It seems like you're taking this a bit too personally. They're different systems, and some people won't like the style of one or the other. But this is what I agree with. The poster I first replied to pointed out the 7800's faults, but made it sound like it was completely crippled and ignored its strengths. The problem I had and part of the reason I was so annoyed at atariski is that he completely ignored part of my posts and assumed I didn't like or know about some things I liked or knew about. I'm aware that 7800 and Atari 8 bit computer line are different and have their own advantages, but I'm annoyed when someone assumes I don't love the 800 (which I do) becuase of postivie things I said about 7800 games. Edited January 24, 2011 by BrianC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm in the US too. It's a comparison to 5200/A8 games for example. It's not that it's worse or better, it's just that it has different strengths and weaknesses. Whoever called it "crap", that's an opinion, but you can't really argue that it's not different, because then it would be the same. Some of the details of the differences have already been outlined. It seems like you're taking this a bit too personally. They're different systems, and some people won't like the style of one or the other. But this is what I agree with. The poster I first replied to pointed out the 7800's faults, but made it sound like it was completely crippled and ignored its strengths. The problem I had and part of the reason I was so annoyed at atariski is that he completely ignored part of my posts and assumed I didn't like or know about some things I liked or knew about. I'm aware that 7800 and Atari 8 bit computer line are different and have their own advantages, but I'm annoyed when someone assumes I don't love the 800 (which I do) becuase of postivie things I said about 7800 games. Okay, cool then, and don't let atariski get to you. He just likes pushing everyone's buttons (or more likely just doesn't have the sense not to). Seriously, don't get sucked into all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianC Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm in the US too. It's a comparison to 5200/A8 games for example. It's not that it's worse or better, it's just that it has different strengths and weaknesses. Whoever called it "crap", that's an opinion, but you can't really argue that it's not different, because then it would be the same. Some of the details of the differences have already been outlined. It seems like you're taking this a bit too personally. They're different systems, and some people won't like the style of one or the other. But this is what I agree with. The poster I first replied to pointed out the 7800's faults, but made it sound like it was completely crippled and ignored its strengths. The problem I had and part of the reason I was so annoyed at atariski is that he completely ignored part of my posts and assumed I didn't like or know about some things I liked or knew about. I'm aware that 7800 and Atari 8 bit computer line are different and have their own advantages, but I'm annoyed when someone assumes I don't love the 800 (which I do) becuase of postivie things I said about 7800 games. Okay, cool then, and don't let atariski get to you. He just likes pushing everyone's buttons (or more likely just doesn't have the sense not to). Seriously, don't get sucked into all that. ok cool. Thanks for the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bent_pin Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 On 1/18/2011 at 8:22 PM, ATARI7800fan said: What is your opinion of the Atari 800XL package from Atari-sales for 74.95 with a s-video cable. If only they still cost this 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maztr_0n Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 interestingly, i have a weird opinion, i always felt like out of the big 3 of the 3rd gen of consoles, the 7800 had the most "Early 80's Home-Computer Energy" of any of the consoles, like just the mix of library, asthetics, controllers, etc just kinda felt really nice as a bridge between the two worlds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 I love the potential of the 7800 Maria sprite chip, but yet coming from an Atari 8-bit, playing many 7800 titles was a let down. Sound is a huge problem. Just because it allowed developers to include a pokey on cart doesn't count for much if few games actually did. Some games still manage to better on the Atari 8-bit even though they shouldn't. I feel like the 7800 needed more work, it wasn't worth killing the 5200 for in its current form. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 10 hours ago, zzip said: I love the potential of the 7800 Maria sprite chip, but yet coming from an Atari 8-bit, playing many 7800 titles was a let down. Sound is a huge problem. Just because it allowed developers to include a pokey on cart doesn't count for much if few games actually did. Some games still manage to better on the Atari 8-bit even though they shouldn't. I feel like the 7800 needed more work, it wasn't worth killing the 5200 for in its current form. I would feel the same way in 1985. Today there is no comparison between a8/5200 and 7800. 7800 blows it away when you look at the new homebrews. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Havoc 2049 Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Luckily I have both a 7800 and an Atari 8-bit computer. If there was some reason that I could choose to only play one system, the A8 has the better library. The A8 has almost all the Atari published arcade classics that the 2600/7800 got. Granted, non are on par with 7800 Centipede, Food Fight, Dig Dug, Ms Pac-Man and Asteroids, but most are better than the 2600 versions. There are also a few Atari published A8 exclusive that never came to the 2600/7800. The A8 also received a large chunk of the classic Activision and Parker Brothers 2600 games, along with a few other companies from back then, like Sega, Imagic, etc. Then there is all the awesome A8 3rd party games from SSI, Electronic Arts, Datasoft, Origin, Activision Home Computers, Access, Infocom, Epyx/Lucasfilm Games, Synapse, Broderbund, Avalon Hill, Microprose, etc. The 7800 only received a handful of ports from those companies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 On 5/27/2024 at 7:41 AM, zzip said: I love the potential of the 7800 Maria sprite chip, but yet coming from an Atari 8-bit, playing many 7800 titles was a let down. Sound is a huge problem. Just because it allowed developers to include a pokey on cart doesn't count for much if few games actually did. Some games still manage to better on the Atari 8-bit even though they shouldn't. I feel like the 7800 needed more work, it wasn't worth killing the 5200 for in its current form. Pokey should have been included from the get go. Or, as an option on a little card that could be plugged into a slot or under a cover someplace. I say card, so that it could be in a plastic case like an N64 ram pack or something, as the general population couldn't be trusted to plug a large DIP into a socket underneath. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Zonie said: Pokey should have been included from the get go. Or, as an option on a little card that could be plugged into a slot or under a cover someplace. I say card, so that it could be in a plastic case like an N64 ram pack or something, as the general population couldn't be trusted to plug a large DIP into a socket underneath. It should have been on-board because we know how these 'optional' accessories go... Most developers don't support them! Ideally it should have been something better than a Pokey to stay competitive, but a Pokey would be a vast improvement over what it had. Edited May 29 by zzip 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maztr_0n Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 On 5/29/2024 at 11:53 AM, zzip said: It should have been on-board because we know how these 'optional' accessories go... Most developers don't support them! Ideally it should have been something better than a Pokey to stay competitive, but a Pokey would be a vast improvement over what it had. nope, better yet, force jack to put in the Yamaha YM2612... Now thats competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defender_2600 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 For the umpteenth time: The 7800 console, by design, was intended to have audio chips on the carts. Sound chips such as the Minnie which would have added less than $2.00 to the total price of the cart (as stated in the Minnie Subsystem Top-Level Specification document created Dec 1983 and updated Feb 1984). "Minnie (GCC 1730) was a soundchip designed by GCC as an in-cart audio solution for the 7800 console. The original plan for the 7800 console was to include an onboard sound solution (in addition to TIA audio) but the Maria die space set aside for audio was needed for other core functionality. So GCC added an audio line to the 7800 cartridge port, and began adapting their previous work on the Gumby soundchip (a soundchip design previously developed for their Spring project) into a new Mini-Gumby soundchip, the "Minnie". Although the Minnie design was completed - prototype chips were produced, and a "Minnie Rag" demo sang out within the walls at GCC - the chip ultimately never made it to production, due to the Warner sale of Atari to Jack Tramiel, which marked an end to GCC's relationship with Atari. Capability Overview The Minnie design is quite unique compared to other contemporary sound chips. The synthesis technique employed is Digital Wave Synthesis, where sample data is used to represent one cycle of the sound. There were two rows of sample data and 3 predefined waveform rows, so the chip could also be driven in a Wavetable Synthesis fashion. Adjustable sound parameters include very fine-grained volume and frequency controls, and a noise parameter. The noise parameter could be used to adjust the wave phase of any of the voices in varying levels, achieving modulation effects ranging from slight frequency instability through to pitched noise. Features: 3 voices 16-bit frequency resolution 28kHz sample rate with dynamic range of 10 bits 2 arbitrary 64-byte waveforms stored in on-chip ROM, which could differ per-game 3 standard waveforms: triangle, square, sawtooth The Minnie and TIA audio was summed together, which added another 2 voices to the system, suitable for sound effects and percussion effects. Minnie relied on the CPU to adjust volume for achieving sound envelopes. This would have commonly occurred once per frame, along with any other sound parameter adjustments desired." ---------------------------------------------- The 7800 wasn't the only console that could have chips on the carts, the NES made extensive use of them (sound included): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_management_controller_(Nintendo) These chips extend the capabilities of the original console and make it possible to create NES games with features the original console cannot offer alone. And TIA music quality is also a function of the care given to it. I can point to several amazing homebrew/demo TIA tunes. In fact in some circumstances TIA has beaten POKEY and NES APU. TIA: POKEY: NES: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundGammon Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 I remember calling Atari back in May of 1984 after I heard of a new game console. The gal told me it was called the 7800 and it could display 100 sprites with 256 colors at the same time! Is that true? I've always wondered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defender_2600 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 1 hour ago, SoundGammon said: I remember calling Atari back in May of 1984 after I heard of a new game console. The gal told me it was called the 7800 and it could display 100 sprites with 256 colors at the same time! Is that true? I've always wondered. 7800 Eighty-Six Sprites + full background by RevEng: https://raz0red.github.io/js7800/?cart=https://forums.atariage.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=1054377&key=dc5b1dc081a9dae418a6682e44407568 *(if it doesn't play music, hit the reset button - some browsers mute sound until you interact) --------------------------------------------- And 7800 101 Sprites by RevEng: The 7800 in 160 mode is a beast at displaying *many* *large* *multicolor* sprites and graphics with *4 bits per pixel* color depth. To gain a better understanding of the 7800 color capabilities, a comparison with the NES may be helpful, although they are two different systems and with different strengths. The NES features a palette of only 48 colors and 6 grays, 8x8 or 16x16 tiles / 3 colors from 4 palettes, and 8x8 or 8x16 sprites / 3 colors from 4 palettes. The 7800 features a palette of 256 colors and, with the 160B mode, a single sprite / tiles can have 12 colors from 2 palettes + transparent / background and without limits of size (25 colors per zone). In other words, the NES can only use 4 palettes 2bpp (13 colors available) for tiles and each NES tile is limited to 3 colors, instead the 7800 can use 2 palettes 4bpp (25 colors available) and use all 12 colors in a single tiles. The same rule applies to sprites, the NES can only use 4 palettes 2bpp (13 colors available) for sprites and each NES sprite is limited to 3 colors, instead the 7800 can use 2 palettes 4bpp (25 colors available) and use all 12 colors in a single sprite. Basically a stock 7800 can display 4bpp graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't and in any case on NES you would still be stuck at 3 colors per sprite/tile, stuck at 8x8 or 16x16 pixels, instead no restriction on the size of the sprites / tiles on 7800. Not to mention the maximum number of sprites per scanline, only 8 sprites on NES, instead 30 sprites on 7800. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Just FYI, SN2 cart has YM2612 and also 8 channels version of Minnie and muuuuch more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christo930 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 On 1/18/2011 at 5:02 PM, ATARI7800fan said: HI, I was wondering what are peoples opinion of the Atari 7800 vs there 8-bit computers. I currently have a Atari 7800 with 12 games plus about 40 2600 games.I also own two European controllers and a light gun plus two 2600 controllers and two paddle controllers. I do not own a separate 2600 along with the original american 7800 controllers. I have looking up systems and have always wondered if I should have gotten a 8-bit computer instead of the 7800, while the 7800 does have a new expansion module and some good homebrew games. I wonder if I should have gotten a computer before. The thing is I have never owned a classic computer, I grew up with consoles and just recently got into computer gaming, so I figured the 7800 would have been a better choice as it was a console and I currently do not own any 8-bit consoles besides it. Should I get a 8-bit computer and sell my 7800, have ran out of room currently have 9 systems including a TI-99/4A, at a possible loss or should I keep the 7800 and just wait a few years until I can get the space and money for the computer. Also which one would you guys recommend the XL series or the XE series. Thanks for your time. If you MUST chose between the 7800 and the 8bit line (preferable answer is both), I say go with the 8-bit line. You could probably spend the rest of your life playing a new game every single day and never run out of new games (if you include freeware and shareware) to try for the computer. There are countless games and demos from BITD along with a fairly active homebrew scene. The 7800 is a very nice system, but there just aren't as many games. The 8bit line is getting more homebrews than the 7800, so it can never catch up. The 7800 is a more powerful system though. So you will give up a slight edge in favor of the 7800 if you chose 8bit line. One thing you can do is reduce the space by using an SD card cartridge for them (or better, a disk drive emulator solution) and do both. The joysticks are compatible. I'm pretty sure the 8bit line has a modern disk emulator so you can load all the disk games (which is most of them) without the cumbersome diskettes, drive, cables etc. While the original 800 and 400 are fairly big, most of the rest are pretty small and don't take up a ton of room. So a 7800 plus SD card and an XEGS, plus SD card cartridge and a drive emulator and power supply are all you really need. Storing hundreds of cartridges and a disk drive and diskettes gets quite cluttered and takes room you may not have in an apartment or something. But with modern technology you can have it all without all that clutter and storage required. There is just a ton more software for the 8 bit computers than any of the consoles of the era or even since. There are probably more DOS games than all of the consoles combined, possibly up to this very day. The barrier to entry on a console is extremely high. You needed a suitable development system and the software was delivered on ROM cartridge and in a box with 4 color printing plus a manual. This required a huge upfront investment. If a game flopped, you could lose a LOT of money. This required expensive advertising. But the barrier to entry is so low on computers that even teenagers could write a game and upload it to a BBS. Granted, this low barrier to entry means there is a LOT of crap software on the computers, whether it's an 800, a C64 or a DOS machine. A lot of games that barely meet a very loose definition of the word "game." But there are also a lot of gems. Just a whole lot more period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christo930 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 On 7/1/2024 at 6:19 PM, Defender_2600 said: The 7800 in 160 mode is a beast at displaying *many* *large* *multicolor* sprites and graphics with *4 bits per pixel* color depth. On 7/1/2024 at 6:19 PM, Defender_2600 said: a single sprite / tiles can have 12 colors from 2 palettes + transparent / background and without limits of size (25 colors per zone). Do you know of any 7800 games that have 16 or 12 color sprites? I don't think I have ever seen one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defender_2600 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 4 hours ago, christo930 said: Do you know of any 7800 games that have 16 or 12 color sprites? I don't think I have ever seen one. There are several 7800 games and demos that use 160B mode (12 colors sprites / tiles) so *4 bits per pixel* graphics. However as it happens with every console that uses 4bpp color depth, you will not always need to use the whole palette for each single sprite / tiles, so on average you will have sprites / tiles that use 6 - 8 colors and that still makes a big difference compared to the 3 colors 2bpp modes. Here are some 7800 examples with 12, 10, 8 or 6 colors sprites / tiles that run on real hardware. 12 colors sprite: example_dobkeratops.mp4.565a1467ad55beec727a033a55c0c07c(1).mp4.85e1148b995e8dc3f80f87e39873bde5.mp4.ca290b9ae88c0c5a2bceb14bab23f0d5.mp4 LsADX demo 10 colors sprite: Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest 8 colors sprite: Bomber Hero Attack of the PETSCII Robots Arkanoid 6 colors sprite: Arkanoid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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