José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Jose... What about this approach. Outline which chars are definitly needed for the background like walls, floor and then we get how much minimum chars are needed to at least capture the level design in Antic 4. Antic 4 makes life easier imho for scrolling. then we add the softsprites on top. after that we knew how much chars are left to spice up the gfx. can you explain this other way... can't understand, but if what I think you're talking then the idea is to have the same as the Charsets on Pac (remember that early tries when you said you need to get an Editor...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The problem is that whenever I start this Topics there's always the same answers, same talkings, same 'Blah,Blah' but 'why in Hell' there's Demo's (like the PeterDell and many others more) but there aren't Games... Because it's always the same progression. People have ideas and put them in, writing Demos. Then they try something more complex and finish it on other computers Another possibility is that people remind of some old stuff , put some code together for some nostalgia. With some exceptions it still isn't wanted, to have something "new" on the A8. Even Project-M, which is setting the quality bar higher, is no initial for a new set of "ego perspective action shooters". I still propose using gr. 7 to make a full working game. I also would propose to use PM in low res and/or in shape mode for colour enhancements, not just for a single PM object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Well... Tebe should release the Crownland Engine and the Pang! Engine... would make life easier... No, it doesn't seem that these Engine would be a solution to any of these Games... I don't need to be a coder to understand how they work, and, for eample, that the Cronwnland one are just Gfxs. with two Multicolour sprites by Line (same that was in the Contra Demo), if you get more than two on the same Line it disappears one,... Crownland & Contra are good examples for sprite multiplexing scrolling games like on NES or MSX with ring buffer flickering. so as a coder I say, yes. would work. Pang is good for soft sprites but I am sure optimised for static screens. Crownland and Contra, yes... that's me that always are trying to do Things without 'Flicker'. But can we have 4,5or6 by Line when we only have Machine permission to 2Multicolour sprites in each scanline... What would look 5or6 on the same Line? Even if there will not be, probably, ficker in all the scanlines as the sprites aren't all a the same yPos./Tall... It probably would look what? Just flicker in the repeat scanlines? (wouldn't this will be 'cut lines' on the sprites) Or it will be something like it seems on Contra when there are two Enemys then one quickly jumps and/or disappear? What examples we have abou the maximum number of sprites (ships sizes) by Lines using Flicker we've seen on A8? (Probably the best example be that Ripper spaceships vertical scrolling?) And it's Ripper optimized? People back in time thought it has lots of flicker... Are the Tebe Engine better than the Ripper one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Jose, I mean take the level map of Turrican 1-1 delete all "unneccessary" chars like background gfx etc and see how much chars are minimum needed. not the cosmetic chars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) Jose, I mean take the level map of Turrican 1-1 delete all "unneccessary" chars like background gfx etc and see how much chars are minimum needed. not the cosmetic chars. Soo, the necessary chars are what? Sprites? But the only fixed chars outside Gfxs. are the guy and the shoots. All others: Enemys, Rocks, Bonus,... are not allways at the same time on screen. Sometimes there are only Rocks, others only Ground walkers, others Birds or a mix of some of them... And they could not have the same chars size also. We have to know how many each time, their combinations and trying to count how many maximum chars needed for all of them. Then reserve the necessary chars because they will fit dinamically on this chars nºs. each time we need to call them. Now we discount them on the 128chars... but for sure it is only possible using that: -> CharLine1: Charset1 -> CharLine2: Charset2 -> CharLine3: Charset3 -> CharLine4: Charset4 -> CharLine5: Charset1 -> CharLine6: Charset2 -> CharLine7: Charset3 -> CharLine8: Charset4 and so on... like on Pac... This for 3chars high enemys and 1char more for shifting (if using C64 like 21pixels high) Am I thinking the right way? (P.s.- but this way all the moving things are soft sprites... then, there's no Tebe Engine there...) Edited May 13, 2011 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Jose, I mean cut off all for the engine and game not needed chars which are only cosmetic f.e. for the platforms you only need the top chars as the player needs to stand on "something" same with the floor. f.e. the flowers/tower is not necessary at all. same with the background tiles when you are below... or take the waterfall. all not needed. they are only there to look "good". I just want to get a feeling for how many "minimum" different chars are needed to keep the gameplay intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 and gr. 7 well... not sure if it will look good at all... but on the other side... I played Draconus till death and Zybex... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 My only thoughts are that all these idea's are put forward and yet as far as I know there's no actually game being made for any of them. Perhaps one idea should be fleshed out and then made before another "what about this" type threads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Jose, I mean cut off all for the engine and game not needed chars which are only cosmetic f.e. for the platforms you only need the top chars as the player needs to stand on "something" same with the floor. f.e. the flowers/tower is not necessary at all. same with the background tiles when you are below... or take the waterfall. all not needed. they are only there to look "good". I just want to get a feeling for how many "minimum" different chars are needed to keep the gameplay intact. Yes, now I understand. Cannot do it today... but can I know what's your idea? What this would help? Or what's the pratical use for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATARI7800fan Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Many platforms that have greater graphics capabilities than the C64, have ports of Turrican that don't live up to the game-play of that original version. My first computer gaming experiences where on the 64 (I also had an Atari 2600, early on) , I played the the absolute hell out of that game as a kid, tried it on other consoles, computers and would always go back to my first choice. Often, when I see discussions of ports from other platforms on the A8, I see so much fretting over the strengths and weaknesses of the display, that any attempt of porting falls by the weigh-side. :/ What would be so wrong with porting this in 4/5 shade medium-resolution monochrome, leveraging the A8's great strength, it's raw CPU to create soft-sprites to overcome player problems, perhaps throw in some extras, unique to the platform? Even the GameBoy version, limited as it sometimes is, plays fairly nicely in mono.: exactly, does any one here have a rebuttal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 My only thoughts are that all these idea's are put forward and yet as far as I know there's no actually game being made for any of them. Perhaps one idea should be fleshed out and then made before another "what about this" type threads... It's more one of my tries... I am always trying to get Things, even hard ones... I, you and no one ever saw this type of Games on A8 and I don't see a reason why... It's possible... just need it's someone to code... Have 4or5colours... have PRIOR1 or have PRIOR0 and get right colours that can be 'Ored' are just correct chooses... Heaven says that a charMode would probably be better to scroll (there's also the 'very good' without many spent cycles 'MWP' (I think it's called something around this) from analmux) and like that PRIOR0 or other it's just the correct choosen colours. Now we can talk about chars? Or we can talk about 'How it will be the sprites? Hardware with Tebe's Multiplexing? or PRIOR0 like I am thinking and soft sprites with PMs. under/overlaying? This are very usefull discussions, for Turrican or any other game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) Many platforms that have greater graphics capabilities than the C64, have ports of Turrican that don't live up to the game-play of that original version. My first computer gaming experiences where on the 64 (I also had an Atari 2600, early on) , I played the the absolute hell out of that game as a kid, tried it on other consoles, computers and would always go back to my first choice. Often, when I see discussions of ports from other platforms on the A8, I see so much fretting over the strengths and weaknesses of the display, that any attempt of porting falls by the weigh-side. :/ What would be so wrong with porting this in 4/5 shade medium-resolution monochrome, leveraging the A8's great strength, it's raw CPU to create soft-sprites to overcome player problems, perhaps throw in some extras, unique to the platform? Even the GameBoy version, limited as it sometimes is, plays fairly nicely in mono.: exactly, does any one here have a rebuttal. A8 it's not a Mono coloured with Grays computer! Edited May 13, 2011 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The problem is not the engine. In every game the problem is to design levels. This is the hardest job. Programming of the engine is not difficult if everything is designed in advance. You focus too much on technical things. The game should be very playable. There are many games without the groundbreaking graphics and visual effects (eg Robbo). But it is very playable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 The problem is not the engine. In every game the problem is to design levels. This is the hardest job. Programming of the engine is not difficult if everything is designed in advance. You focus too much on technical things. The game should be very playable. There are many games without the groundbreaking graphics and visual effects (eg Robbo). But it is very playable. If I get all the ways PFs. and Engine way of Turrican... From where can I begin to design Levels and Gfxs. to send you or any other coder to start coding in a Large, large game like Turrican? José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I wrote about 20 games in my life. I've learned one thing. You have to force the coder to write what you want. Not what he wants. Coders are lazy They will always go for shortcuts. It depends on you how the game will look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I wrote about 20 games in my life. I've learned one thing. You have to force the coder to write what you want. Not what he wants. Coders are lazy They will always go for shortcuts. Reminds me of two games.... Milknuts & Robix. I always propose co-work though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 ... What would be so wrong with porting this in 4/5 shade medium-resolution monochrome, leveraging the A8's great strength, it's raw CPU to create soft-sprites to overcome player problems, perhaps throw in some extras, unique to the platform? Even the GameBoy version, limited as it sometimes is, plays fairly nicely in mono.: Yes. As you said - even the GameBoy version, although without color - is a perfectly playable game. It does not look as good as C64 turrican, but gameplay is there. Jumping, shooting, big levels, large bosses... We don't need "Turrican 100% clone". We need a fast game with good gameplay that will use a8s strengths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 What ever we do, we should use modes with 5 possible colors. Like Jose said - that 5th color can help a lot in level design. That rules out bitmap modes.. (sorry Emkay ). Bitmap modes have two advantages - linear memory space (should be easier to make software sprites in it) and little more free cpu time available. Char modes have two advantages - +1 color and quick moving of stuff around. Both modes can be in single scanline or double scanline mode. I would try both versions but I guess that number of stuff on screen in one time is more important than resolution - so double mode it would be. What about linearity in char mode ? Why not just put 3 character sets on screen in Antic 5 (double vertical chars) narrow mode and use LMS to change addresses of charsets? Row Characters 0 charset 0 - 0-31 1 charset 0 - 32-63 2 charset 0 - 64-95 3 charset 0 - 96-127 4 charset 1 - 0-31 5 charset 1 - 32-63 ... 11 charset 2 - 96-127 It is not exactly linear but it is "organized enough" to make soft sprites easy to implement. Even scrolling becomes easier to do than in bitmap mode. One character row is 32x8=256 bytes - easy to "step" one row down or up. C64 port of "Karnov" did it. It looked slow - but it had 32x20x8=5120 bytes + color ram 640 bytes = 5760 to manage with much slower cpu. A8 would have to manage only 3x128x8=3072 bytes. Big thing to consider is should we strive for fluid sprite movement in 1 pixel resolution - or maybe go straight to char-resolution movement ? Soft sprites with char resolution are simple LDA-STA job. Precision requires byte shifting, shift buffers, sprite-cache or some other method. Amstrad and spectrum have quite a lot of good games made in char-resolution. We shouldn't be ashamed to try this "blasphemy" on A8 Here is a good example of coder that wasn't afraid to do it "spectrum style": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughacs_Zrf4 What is a difference between him and rest of us who won't do it in less than 5 colors ? He actually made a good game and released it All in all - a lot should be tested - I don't know about you, but I'm off to make some coffee and code something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 ... If anyone is interested in having a life free of stress I may have the solution: I have a House that no-one lives there. It's in countryside with lots of Trees and Mountains... There's space and rooms there for 8or9guys... ... I provide P.C.s for you code games for A8 ... Now, that is a good idea You don't even have to provide PCs, I'll bring my laptop - it has all dev-stuff already set-up Just provide a case of chilled "Vinho do Porto" and we will come! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 What ever we do, we should use modes with 5 possible colors. Like Jose said - that 5th color can help a lot in level design. That rules out bitmap modes.. (sorry Emkay ). Depends on the game you want to do. A fullscreen 128 colour scrolling game will only be available in gr. 7 with overlayed PMg. Bitmap modes have two advantages - linear memory space (should be easier to make software sprites in it) and little more free cpu time available. Char modes have two advantages - +1 color and quick moving of stuff around. Char modes are good for fast movement, parallax scrolling and else. So let's switch in levels like the flying level in Turrican, to char mode. But also in double scanline mode.... Both modes can be in single scanline or double scanline mode. I would try both versions but I guess that number of stuff on screen in one time is more important than resolution - so double mode it would be. What about linearity in char mode ? Why not just put 3 character sets on screen in Antic 5 (double vertical chars) narrow mode and use LMS to change addresses of charsets? Row Characters 0 charset 0 - 0-31 1 charset 0 - 32-63 2 charset 0 - 64-95 3 charset 0 - 96-127 4 charset 1 - 0-31 5 charset 1 - 32-63 ... 11 charset 2 - 96-127 It is not exactly linear but it is "organized enough" to make soft sprites easy to implement. Even scrolling becomes easier to do than in bitmap mode. One character row is 32x8=256 bytes - easy to "step" one row down or up. My problem here is to believe in a fluent game using softwaresprites anymore. As soon as a charmode-softwaresprite was there, everything breaks down, and nothing will be completed. OK, we have some exceptions when games use a memory extension with preshifted graphics data, but in gr. 7 things get even faster, allowing multiple registerchanges in a scanline without serious slowdowns. C64 port of "Karnov" did it. It looked slow - but it had 32x20x8=5120 bytes + color ram 640 bytes = 5760 to manage with much slower cpu. A8 would have to manage only 3x128x8=3072 bytes. Big thing to consider is should we strive for fluid sprite movement in 1 pixel resolution - or maybe go straight to char-resolution movement ? Soft sprites with char resolution are simple LDA-STA job. Precision requires byte shifting, shift buffers, sprite-cache or some other method. Amstrad and spectrum have quite a lot of good games made in char-resolution. We shouldn't be ashamed to try this "blasphemy" on A8 At least Raster made this in Robix. The enemies move in charmode resolution. Here is a good example of coder that wasn't afraid to do it "spectrum style": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughacs_Zrf4 What is a difference between him and rest of us who won't do it in less than 5 colors ? He actually made a good game and released it And, as you may have noticed, he didn't use straight assembler. All in all - a lot should be tested - I don't know about you, but I'm off to make some coffee and code something And I'll still watch the tragedy that is going on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 ...And I'll still watch the tragedy that is going on What tragedy is that ? You are not the first one to mention it - what is it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 ...And I'll still watch the tragedy that is going on What tragedy is that ? You are not the first one to mention it - what is it ? Emkay Mode... I'll second that, what he's he trying to say? Where are others saying the same? And there's also someone on another Thread saying that I and others "don't know what more crazy Things are coming into A8!..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 ...And I'll still watch the tragedy that is going on What tragedy is that ? You are not the first one to mention it - what is it ? Seeing always the most promising Software which ends up in a simple demo.... just like Blood Fighter, or a promotion that promises a "new world of sound" without a real start of creating the real game , just like Lemmings. Seeing superior Intros while the game is crap, just like Fluid Kha Seeing the marvellous Space Harrier with music just of 1979'th quality.... Seeing useless Techdemos ... just like Turrican. Seeing people still not finishing their project at all. And the worst of all: People do not see the most important points of a project to solve. Not to forget the "interesting" videos on Youtube where Amiga Demos get POKEY conversions that put all the resources of the A8 without a benefit. Or the Lucasfilm Games.... Atari spend them a Million Dollars and got just working Software without any real optimisations.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 ...And I'll still watch the tragedy that is going on What tragedy is that ? You are not the first one to mention it - what is it ? Seeing always the most promising Software which ends up in a simple demo.... just like Blood Fighter, or a promotion that promises a "new world of sound" without a real start of creating the real game , just like Lemmings. Seeing superior Intros while the game is crap, just like Fluid Kha Seeing the marvellous Space Harrier with music just of 1979'th quality.... Seeing useless Techdemos ... just like Turrican. Seeing people still not finishing their project at all. And the worst of all: People do not see the most important points of a project to solve. Not to forget the "interesting" videos on Youtube where Amiga Demos get POKEY conversions that put all the resources of the A8 without a benefit. Or the Lucasfilm Games.... Atari spend them a Million Dollars and got just working Software without any real optimisations.... Aren't we all here trying to change this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Aren't we all here trying to change this? No. That's the point No one really likes changes, without some exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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